[phreaknasty]

um...umhhm.,.yeh..., uhm... that was supposed to "sewed"....

i've been following the photo reference debates for a while now and based on the resounding opinion that nothing can replace figure drawing. i dove head first into a local open studio and this is what i crapped out...

and a larger version of "figure_staff" at
http://www.pixeljock.com/sijun/figure/figure_staff_b.jpg

the first sketch is a 1 min short pose. a time that i struggle mightly with. the second drawing is a 5 min that i futzed with a bit after the model changed position.

so rip me a new one. where did i go wrong, what did i do right? hows the anatomy?

thanks

[This message has been edited by phreaknasty (edited October 31, 2000).]

[daz199]

wow thats a big ass

[Gonad]

hahahahaahahahahaha.

[micke]

Thtat's a VERY nice start.
How long time did you spend on different poses? I've been practicing mostly 1-3 minute poses. I really wanna try a longer
pose sometime.

There is some problems with her
shoulder on the right one. Did you use a white crayon on these?

Keep it up

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-Mikael Noguchi-

http://www.katode.org/noguchi/

[Jason Manley]

If you knew your anatomy, your drawings would have not only more accurate proportions but would not look like you are unsure of what you are drawing.

What you are doing is a long path indeed. I spent 15 semesters in figure classes. Most of my drawings were much below what you are showing. It was not until I paid closer attention to what I was drawing and forced myself to remember anatomy and do studies that I improved.

check this site to find some accurate (though sometimes slightly stiff and other times absolutely amazing figure work)
http://www.gandynet.com/art/home.htm

When you do more long term drawings (multiple days and at least 6-15 hours in front of the model) your gestures will stay at the level they are. You may get better at line control or movement but accurate markmaking and subtle understanding of visual life only comes from long term drawings.

Keep up the good work.


jason


some of the people on that site studied under an artist named richard lack. Richard Lack learned from R.H. Ives Gammel who learned from william paxton who learned from jean leon gerome who learned from charles gleyre and paul delaroche who learned from Ingres who learned from Jaques Louis David.

This is the traditional way to learn to draw and paint.

the way they all learned to draw and paint was by studying casts and still life and figure. Some of their figure drawing sessions last for 16 weeks or more. They work on their studies til they get it to look like what they see...not a drawing or scribbling of what they think they see. One of my teachers in college learned that way and he is more sensitive to visual things than anyone I ever met because he spent so much time looking.

I guess that is the key...Keep looking...look more...look more...look more...look harder.


Jason

[phreaknasty]

daz and gonad - yeh she sure was packing a punch, though i might have accentuated it a bit.

micke - thanks for the encouragement. if you and joachim are still going to figure drawing class as you were a couple of months ago, i'd be interested to see how your sketches have evolved. the open studio i attended was an all day affair but i only logged in 3 hours on a bunch of 1,2, and 5 min. poses and two 10 min. poses. though my natural inclination is to favor the longer poses i think anything over 5 min leads me into focusing in on minutia rather then on figure drawing. for know while i'm still in my figure drawing infancy (i've attended an open session here and there over the last couple of years, but never with much instruction or regularity) i think i should stick with the shorter poses. i really hate 1 min poses since i can never seem to get anything down. its still amazes me to see what people like you, Joachim, and Fred manage to get on paper during such short periods of time. In august when you and joachim were posting your stuff how long had you been figure drawing prior? anyways, thanks again, and yeh i see what you mean about the shoulder, and yes i was using some white crayon or charcoal thingy to bring out the highlights....

jason - first hearing that micke and now you don't think my drawings are just chicken scratch after all is pretty sweet. just as a side note i find your work pretty inspiring. i'm not really sure what you meant about being on a long path, but hopefully with some help form you, this forum, a little tenacity, and a lot of figure drawing i can shorten it .

considering your suggestions and micke's point about the shoulder it seems i could spend a bit more time studying up on anatomy. i have Richard Hale's Artistic Anatomy, a book by Villpu and Bridgham's bigger book... can you suggest any other good sources or anatomical information? It is pretty interesting how drawing and painting are apparently so dependent on looking. I tried pretty hard to see more during this session then i have in the past, but without practice its often hard to see how foreshortening, movement, rhythm and anatomy all get translated onto paper.

"When you do more long term drawings (multiple days and at least 6-15 hours in front of the model) your gestures will stay at the level they are. You may get better at line control or movement but accurate markmaking and subtle understanding of visual life only comes from long term drawings." Sorry to be dense but you lost me a bit here. Under what circumstances does one only get better at line control while not learning more about gesture, and conversely under what circumstances can one gain greater control over markmaking and "subtle understanding of visual life?"

thanks for the links. i actually own Anthony Rider's book. its friggin outstanding when it comes to showing what can be accomplished with a pencil and paper when it comes to light, but its a bit over my head when it comes to figure drawing since i'm still struggling with some of the more basic issues. at some point you should post a new thread with a list of your "old master" links. they seem invaluable, and your list seems extensive. thanks for all of the feed back. hopefully you'll have the patients to ignore my denseness and time to explain a little further.

jenn - thanks, I think .

[Jason Manley]

sorry...that was a typo...

what I meant to say is that your gestures will continue to be vague and unsure and ambiguous unless you spend long hours in front of the model copying what you see and improving what you see in your drawing so the space and form and expression is communicated. When you do long term figure work you learn to really understand what you see. When you understand more then more will come out in your gestures.

the gestures will stay the same unless you memorize your anatomical origins and insertions as well as all the bones...you may have to draw all of them 5-6 times before you remember it. It takes time...but it is possible if you just do it.

also study the values of light more accurately. Light has a value range up though middle values often times shadoes have a full value range too...at least 5 values from light to dark for good form...

1mass light ...the big shape of light
2mass shadow...the big shape of dark
3core shadow...the darkest parts of the shadow..usuall between the halftone light or transition light and the reflect light...it is often where the form just turns away from the light
4fill/reflect light and halftone light(the darkest parts of the light that is not shadow)...these are often similar values.
5highlight

these are the kinds of things I am talking about.
http://metmuseum.org/collections/view1zoom.asp?dep=11&full=1&mark=1&item=87%2E15%2E97
http://www.thecolors.com/sub/pd1/pd15.html
http://www.thecolors.com/sub/fl1/fl10.html http://www.thecolors.com/sub/fl1/fl2.html

[Jason Manley]

another link to good figure work

http://www.vandegriffgallery.com/current_exhibition/ryder_images.html

[kig]

I read this in some book

quote

Quote:

Artist's greatest ability is the ability to observe

or something like that

hasdf.

[Jenn]

That second one is pretty mean
Nice style you have there

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DarkChyld

[Joachim]

hey phreaknasty,

Nice figure drawings. soft and good lines (nice exaggerations too ). Actually, I prefer the left one(the quick one), it has such a nice and loose feeling to it. A good thing when drawing figure drawing, I've experienced is to start of with quick ones and then go on to longer poses after. Then, without noticing, you can easily continue with those quick lines and the forshortening and pose itself comes more automatic. Almost like how Fred said he had to warm up. The long pose, I think the shading could be a bit less "metalic" ..don't know if you had a descent lightsetting when this model posed ?..but you get a bit of that feeling that the shading is a bit made up.
But, very nice drawings, post more if you have some !

Sorry, but me and micke hasn't been tdoing any in a while, much because we are now just one week from a final gold version of Project IGI. But, I look so forward to go back...we have 1 1/2 of holiday after we are done so guess what I'm gonna do .
I have one sheet though, from the last time I was there, but I don't think you can see much improvement, probably because we hardly never draw a man so those few times we do I kind of feel less in control. But, I can post them anyway ( I had them on my page though )


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Joachim's Place

[Jason Manley]

very cool

just spend some more time drawing and live in those anatomy books

draw lots of skeletons...with really strong form...work on your form.

jason

[phreaknasty]

i'd really like to see more people post there current figure drawing efforts since it seems to be such an important learning tool. the post in august containing joachim, micke and fred's stuff was very informative and a good measuring stick. i'd love to see more.

jason - thanks again for all of the help. when i see a noticeable improvement in my skills i'll post some more. some anatomy, some vision, some lighting, and some practice and perhaps i'll get the hang of this.

[Joachim]

Jason, thx for your comments ( I guess they were directed to me, right ?)
I agree very much that I should draw more skeletons, that is something I've done way too little of. But, I was hoping that you could give me some more spesific comments than you gave, because they got a bit over my head...the "draw more and look at anatomy books" comment don't give me much input, since that is something every artist should know that is needed all the way throughout their carreer.
I've really looked for some comments on my figure drawings, since were I go there's no teacher or noone to comment, so I've tried before to get people to give to really strong feedback on what they think. Not only, that arm looks wrong, bla bla bla, but an overall feedback that points me further. So, since you started so nice telling me what you did, I would be REALLY greatful if you could spend some time to make a deeper explanation of your thoughts.

here's some other sheets from other models. ( poses are from 1 min up to max 3 min )
http://home.online.no/%7Ej-barrum/personal/fig2.jpg
http://home.online.no/%7Ej-barrum/personal/fig4.jpg
http://home.online.no/%7Ej-barrum/personal/fig1.jpg
http://home.online.no/%7Ej-barrum/personal/fig6.jpg

thx!

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Joachim's Place

[This message has been edited by Joachim (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Jason Manley]

ok...

You will need to do these things.

1 keep pushing your form. When I look at your stuff I see you pushing your form and space mostly with the weight of your line and your line quality (which is very strong as well as commmendable) ...However, form can be pushed further by inreasing your value range of your TONE to not just describe the light but to make the drawing pop off the page and for it to feel like it is in the page...it is like using the tone to describe the form and then using the actual light to light it.

you are getting the gesture fine...keep a closer eye on proportion...a closer and a tighter eye on proportion while keeping the gesture intact.

2 memorize all the origins and insertions of all surface muscle groups. You are making many correct marks while doing your gestures (marking the anatomical landmarks on the body) while keeping the "feel" of the pose...that is difficult indeed. However..if you knew all the origins and insertions and knew what all the major surface muscles look liked as far as their simple forms...then you would have more landmarks to notate and your poses would make more sense proportionally and anatomically cprrect.

3 increase the value range of your light and shadow...

light has these properites...I would like to see more notation of them in your drawings..

1mass light the large shape of light
2mass shadow..the large shape of dark
3core shadow ...the darkest darks
4 reflect light and halftone light (the lightest parts of the shadow and the dark transition parts of the light
5highlight...you know


If you can notate these in the same way that you notate space with your line and marks for anatomy then the drawing and what you see will pop and have strength....this is not easy...but if you can do it then all your other work will improve....

your stuff is very high key...which is fine...but it seems like you are stuck doing the hi key stuff and I would like to see you have a wider range of expression with your values....value can dictate mood as well so think about that a bit...

do more anatomy studies...more more more more...get the studies to have strong light and form...if you do that they you will remember them easily and it will spill out while you work...all on its own.

If I were to tell you to do only one thing it would be to do more long term drawings. Until you do...you will be an increasingly level plataeu.


jason

[Fred Flick Stone]

Here are some quick sketches I posted a few months back.

First before I start anything I will forget to say this, Joachim, thos are freekin beautiful. You and Micke are scarin me. You guys dissappear for a few days and come back with some incredible stuff. These are amazing. You get very good my friend...I gotta start practicing more...

Ok, phreaknasty- those sketches you did are just fine for where you are with your art acedamia. YOu show strength in your ability to see form, you now need to refresh yourself in the working mechanics, and anatomy that is going on underneath the flesh. THis is going to help your figure drawing out immensely. Now many people argue that you don't necessarily need to know anatomy to draw the figure, a good example is Ingres, who didn't take any anatomy and very few figure study classes. He is best known for his portraiture, which is dead on, with a bit of an idealistic flair. But he did take painting courses, and in his day and age they were very scientific, and that shows in his finished works. Perfect, and very vibrant in the color mixtures... I do not personally think you should neglect this part of your studies. It is very vital in your growth as an artist for not only the figure, but everything else you end up drawing. Trust me on this. Once you understand the thought process of seeing through the surface to get a quality surface representation, you will begin or add to your thinking process by doing this with everything you draw. THis is a way that all concept designers think or should think like. Artists need to think this way as well to pull off convincing form in images unless their art is design motivated, abstract in some sort of way, representational, or you just plain ole don't care.

Do not batter yourself in the head because these are not what you are thinking you should be doing. Remember, studying art is an ongoing process that takes a lifetime to really begin to understand, your learning begins now, and will continue to improve and excel. The only monster you face is time, which very few of us have. Do not rush and do not get frustrated. This learning process, the process of discovery is the funnest time you can have as an artist. The work is repetitive and boring at times, the clients even worse, your studies are the sanctuary you need to build to safe haven yourself, so do not get frustrated.

I can try and find some of my early figure drawings, but I regret I throw my art out annually so as not to carry such a heavy burden of useless trees with me everywhere I go. Most of my figure studies now incorporate a high level of figurative understanding, this can be decieving when I try and tell you that I started out where you are now. I did, and it was horrible. But, I do not fear anymore when I suck ass at something, or tell myself I do. This means a new period of learning, like a drug, it gets addicting and fun, and that to me is learning. This graphic novel I am working on is kicking my ass just in terms of how to present it. I am enjoying the process of figuring out a technique though, and once I get started on the pages I am going to yawn alot because I want to get started with something new, and different in approach.

Diverting from the topic-sorry...These are just fine. One thing I will say though as a word of caution, once you find a medium you like studying in, stick with it till you feel like it limits your drawing. Then find a new medium. Jumping from medium to medium while learning also slows down the learneing process for what you are studying because you also have to familiarize yourself with the new set of tools you are working with.
These are things that most artists don't think about much, because it all seems like one great big thing called learning art. We need to separate the pieces from the parts first, and learn bits at a time in a controlled sort of way. That is why learning at a school can be beneficial, in that it teaches regime, routine and approach. It also empphasizes deadlines, but few pwoplw take heed of this, and neglect this part of their learning, and when it comes time to going pro, oops, deadlines come with it...
First learn the tools you plan on using the most, explore and enjoy. Then, once you have a good handle on what you plan on working with, set out to figure what it is you want to do and attack this from the ground up. I.E. if you want to tell stories, you are going to need to know alot. If you plan on painting in galleries, you need to know alot, but different sorts of "alot". If you want to be a concept artist, again, alot is necessary to learn but different than the said other two, and again the same applies if you want to be a graphic designer. THe underpinning structure that lies within each of these job titles vary from specific to specific, but a strong understanding of art, seeing, placing, harmonizing, etc. go hand in hand with each other. They all have background. They all have history. With history comes many tried and true, and tried and failed techniques. These techniques get absorbed as teaching implements or not, and then move forward. This stuff is part of what you will grasp in the process of learning, and this is to your advantage.

Wow, where the hell am I going with all this now? I don't know, just got a lot to say I guess. That Rockwell show really moved me and I am ready to tackle things again. The game I am working on has sorta dissallusioned me a bit from time to time, and I feel I am not effective anymore as an artist. BUt it is just that I am on repeat mode, and I am stagnating with the same designs, all part of the job of course.

Rockwell onened my eyes once again, and made me realize what I still need to study alot of, and yes most of it is figurative and compositional.

SO Phreaky, anyway, getting back to what you want, stick with one medium, the one you favor, do not get frustrated, you are learning, and learning is frustrating at times. Study anatomy on your own, or until you find a good anatomy course. And most of all, have a fun time.

Jason Manley, if you read this, email me sometime. I really like your stuff and what you have to say. I would like to know more about where you learned and what you do for a living. I have seen some things you have sent Phil and Francis, they are very beautiful works, and I looked around the Icewind site at your character studies. Very, very impressive. Anyway, my hands hurt, I go draw now...

Bye

R

[Joachim]

Forgot to say thanks Jason. Some very helpful comments, I will keep them in my head and try to addapt them to my figure drawings ..and also find a class that has some longer poses as well. (I'll post some figure d. when I see any progress)

And ofcourse, thanks to you fred, for the kind words

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Joachim's Place