[Partikle]

Okay, This is kind of an addition to Klaivu's thread about artshcools. I just need to know some opinions from the guys who have been to an artschool:

How much you actually learn in there?
Can you learn the same things from artbooks? And how much more time and effort that would take?

There's this artschool called University of Art and Design Helsinki (Taideteollinen Korkeakoulu in finnish) http://www.uiah.fi/english.shtml , Everyone seems to consider that as the school #1. Well. I have heard some quite nasty rumours about it.
Like, first one is that they can't fail students. Once you get yourself in, you practically have a degree. Is that really true!?! Because what kind of quality of teaching they have if they can't fail students??
Then some rumours tell also that some time ago an american professor left the school and said that it was just a bunch of idiots there or something.
And I also have heard these things that people generally go there just to get a degree so that they could get a job. Not to become really good.

And. I think that it takes about 5 years to graduate from there. I think I could teach myself some neat skills by studying artbooks and practising a lot in that same time.

These things are really fucking up my faith in the artschools.

Please answer this! I want - or NEED - to know some opinions!
Especially the opinions from the finnish people are very welcome!

Oh btw. Here's some of my work from about a 2 years period of time: http://www.pcuf.fi/~jugezo/pix/

I'm 18 years old, finishing highschool in next year's december, so I don't have to decide these things right now in this very second. I got over a year until I need to really decide what am I going to do.

Uh, and I'm interested in digital art. All sorts of 2d and 3d stuff.

[Rinaldo]

Personaly I like to sit at home in a dark room and draw all day. It's the best way to learn that I've experianced to date. of course you have to have people who are interested in the same thing in close proximity (be it through a computer or face to face. To me other people who have simmilar interests is the best thing about going to a school. not everyhitng can be learnt from a book tho. I think going to a few specalised private or otherwise courses is a good idea. figure drawing being something that fits into this category.
It also depends on how well you can teach yourself. some people seem to be able to get a lot out of a book while others need the instruction.

[Fred Flick Stone]

RInaldo said it well. I would like to add to it though. Schools are there for us to find them, and you the individual is on a mission, or should be on a mission to find certain truths about yourself. As an artist, you should be able to reach out and obtain what you need and nothing more. If you know what you want you will find the info, and discard or ignore anything else coming at you.
If you don't know what you want, then you might go to the art school to find what you like. THis though is a very awkard situation, as you might get stuck in a few ruts here. One is the lack of proper instruction in the art school(s). There seems to be a lack of quality teaching. I hope someday there are more qualified instructors who know what and why they are teaching what they are trying to teach. As a naive student, and one who isn't quite sure what they are looking for might see the school as the end all be, with all the right things that make me feel artsy, regardless of what little there is to offer. These are the art student junkies who get caught up in the moment, till they try to get a job. Most might find a job, but will not last too long. There are these books published every year here in the states called the illustrators guide...you see all the illustrators of the year trying to make or break out there in the real world. Every year, 90% of the book doesn't return, and a whole new fresh crop of faces pops up, only to dissappear a year or two later. These are people who thought they had it, realized they didn't, copied someone elses style, not well, failed again, and dropped out of the running. The number of attempts a year by different artists is astounding. It makes you realize just how many people are out there looking for this stuff.
There are also the art students who find one individual teacher who preaches the loudest, these guys usually tend to know very little, but tout that the system is bullshit, and you must find yourself through your passions, so get naked and paint yourself technicolor and jump in to a wall, leave your mark and call it art DAMMIT! I see a great number of students in Jr. Colleges getting stuck in this rut. It is not there fault, this just happens to be a personality trait, or a rebellious similarity that attracts so many individuals to head the same direction. These are the guys who eventually call themselves the bleeding starving artists, and yeah, they will continue to starve until they get back to reality...
There are also the life long students, who don't know if they have found the right thing, but love the classes because they have a little escape from reality. These are the guys and gals who sit around and babble about an art show, the $400 Kandinsky Brush that they will never dip into paint because of the price tag. They babble about how Bob Ross is a god, no he's not, yes he is...blah blah...it all sounds neato to the naive first timer, but gets old real quick. Especially when you find out how long these people have been in these classes, and how, not so great there projects really are.

Now I am getting very narrow minded here pin pointing certain types, I digress and generalize. I am just stating a few things I and many other individuals I have talked to before have seen and been stuck or sucked into along our career path ways. These are but a few of the pitfalls of art schools. But, and I mean BUT...if you have a passion, and you know what you are going to do, which right now it doesn't sound like you have a specific focus yet, then you should be able to discern whether the art school you wish to attend is going to offer you anything at all.

Ask yourself a few questions as you check out the school...do the art instructors actually teach or is it all student taught? Do the instructors demonstrate, or are they all gab? Has the school produced great artisans in the past? If so, this might mean that there are qualified instructors and you want to take advantage of that...DO the instructors answer your questions, or do they answer by finishing the problem, and stating, "there, that is hwo it is done"...what did you get out of that?

Mostly though, have a goal if you do plan this journey. GIve yourself a few attainable goals to set, and possibly acheive, and look for something specific to shoot for after school, and try to establish contact with that specific goal early on so they know you exist and are interested in them.

It is much like job hunting, looking for art schools that is. You need to be very picky. WHere you end up in the end is affected by your initial decisions.

Studying from books is a very beneficial thing. THe only drawback is that you have no one who can give you any feed back whether you are tackling the problems correctly or not. Just like math, you are going to need some guidance. There are so many little finites with art that you have to be aware of, and without a guide to check for them, you might just overlook them completely. Thanks to this forum and hopefully others like it, there are other individuals out there who are willing to help. I am one of them, I enjoy this, and it is what I do for a living. Here is just a bigger classroom. Studying from the books and coming here with your art is a very good start, but you will need other pro training first hand. Such as life drawing, learning perspective, color, etc. These are things that do not come naturally and need the assistance of someone who does know, to reassure you of your attempts.

Something that happened to me yesterday, I went to see the Norman Rockwell exhibit, and realized how many cheats he slipped into his paintings, and how perfect they look, not overworked, beat to death, or anything like that. THey look complex in print, but are so well painted and simple in their approach. I learned more from looking than I could ever have learned looking at a book. But again, I did this on my own and not by the hand of another. THis is self teaching. I learned much from that, more like I learned that cutting corners is AOK as long as you know the end results. Blah blah...
Point is, both, home studying and school studying have there limitations in these days of age...you have to scrutinize every move you make, or the end results can be disasterous.What you really need to remember is mileage, put in thousands of hours of learning, knowledge, art isn't just touchy feely, there are tools(rules) that can guide you to better illustration,etc. and find people who already do it and pick their brains. Most of the time, artists are alone working, any talking is good talking. And believe it or not, many artists are willing to help a bit.

I would have to agree with Spooge in that with these times, getting a complete education is more than beneficial. I would consider getting a regular degree also to help you with fall back just in case the arts go belly up for some reason. It would greatly benefit you in life. Not to mention, art schools are single track minded, and all those other classes you will be missing are helpful in balancing the mind and soul, and help you get around in the real world. I don't know quite how, but they do.

Be careful in your decision and good luck. Hope all this gabbing has made any sense at all.

[inferno]

Hi Partikle

Well we have a nice university here as well, the University of Fine Arts. it takes 5 years to get a degree, and imo students learn a lot there (atleast i saw some really neat studies and stuff). Yes, they can't fail but it's because it is really heard to get in, they accept only 50 ppl in a year (for one field ofcourse, there are several different, like painting, graphics, restorer etc ). there is a difficult entrance examination with 3 phases, so only the really talented ones can pass it. IMO you should consider to attend a school like that, it's better to learn from masters, you could avoid some usual mistakes, and besides, you could meet nerds there with the same "hobby" that you have

oh but thats just my opinion

take care


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INF
inf's easel

[inferno]

oh it's me again
i just find a homework that a guy
made who attended the university i mentioned above. he did this at the begining, when they started with anatomy. sometimes they did sketches like this without a model

[Rinaldo]

Just to say somehting on the "it's good 'cos it's hard to get in".
I got selected out of around 300 people, first we had a portfolio check, then we had an examination to test life drawing and creativity, as well as how motivated we were and what our goals were. only about 40-50 people got in. I wouldn't bank on most of those people getting anywhere. some are good but they were pretty good to begin with if you know what I mean. A school is a School is a School. period. Personaly I think that grading and all that is a load of BS. marks should not be the driving force.

My situation is a differnt one. differnt subject, smaller amount of talent in the area I would imagine. but I was thinking hte same thing....this course was hard to get into, so it must be good. it sounded good and everything. but it wasn't. Admitedly I shouldn't have been there in the first place due to it being a Graphic desing course and me wanting to draw. but I know people who want to be GDers and it was not all it was cracked up to be.
The best thing is to ask someone who has been through there recently. Get the hard info. Don't rely on rumors or marketing rubbish.


edit-
christ fred that's about the longest post I've seen. some very inspiring words there.

and while that pic inferno posted is stupidly good it says nothing about the school. it says that there are highly skilled people there which is a good thing (if there's not steer clear as a rule). But it's about how well the school can teach you. I'm not saying it will or it won't but without a before and after shot of the student's skill it's nothing more than a very nice picture.




[This message has been edited by Rinaldo (edited November 03, 2000).]

[inferno]

Rinaldo, hmm this sounds interesting..
as far as i know they are holding the same tests here too.. and all these you've gone
through just before me.. so it is worth trying? im a bit confused..

>without a before and after shot of the >student's skill it's nothing more than a >very nice picture.

okay, I totally agree on that

[This message has been edited by inferno (edited November 03, 2000).]

[aquamire]

Woo, I'm on a post binge or something.

Personally speaking, I havent yet made it to art college.. I'm 19, and trying to finish up highschool with independant study to get my diploma so that one day I can get to an art college. However, there's some huge obstacles I have to get around before that happens. I dont see it happening for at least a couple more years or so.

So, until then, I strive very hard to learn from my environment, and the books I've been supplied with. In the past 2 or so months I'd say I've improved dramatically, mostly based on my own learning. But I see a little wall ahead.. I'm not sure how far I can really go just learning by myself. I dont have anyone around me that I can specifically relate to when it comes to art.. a few graphic design nuts, but their not interested in illustration like I am.

I guess I've learned, the more I strive to learn about art, the more I want to learn. And its learning that keeps me going.. I would hate to ever think I've mastered the craft. That would be one heck of a boring day, and I dont think I'd ever be interested in drawing or painting again. Looking back at my older work, and just seeing how much I've improved, fills me with a joy I cant really describe here.

Anyways, I'll stop flappin my jaw, and try and get to what I think is my point.. a passion for art should be about learning, constantly observing, trying new things, and trying to better your self everytime you draw or paint something. At least, thats how it is to me.. and I'm wondering how much further I can go on learning without some guidance. College can be the source of that guidance I think, if that guidance is well, right I guess. Freds speach falls into that.



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/Aq
[email protected]

I'd put my wittiest remark here, but I'd scare you.

[Rinaldo]

inferno- What are you confused about?
My school is Graphic design/Illustration based. entry is through selection. The tasks were a little less interesting than they might have seemed. we had to draw something like our shoe and do a basic design task all in about an hour. there was also an essay which you had to write explaining where you saw yourself in the next ten years time. It was pretty basic, and seeing as there is a small talent pool from which to draw in Adelaide a few substandard people got in. the people have progessend in a rather stagnat fashon. in that the the quality of work has risen but everyone is basicaly in the same position in relation to everyone else. the best of the group is still the best, the worst are still very bad. no one who was half decent has really shot up through the roof due to exelent teaching. the bad ones are just cut out of the picture in the last year leaving the school with a good record. the thing is that those people who got somewhere would have done so anyway. while the school gave them the oppertunity to do so it didn't really give anyone a push.

[Partikle]

MAAAAN!! THANK YOU!!

Some postings!!
What I want to do?
Well, 3d graphics/animation is something that hits me quite well.
Also illustration and that sort of thing would be nice too. I believe this all requires the traditional training in a way or another.
Me thinks that those things can be learned from books and by working HARD. I am in a nice position of knowing some guys who are good and have been making art for years (for a living). So I am not alone. There's people to throw some good critics and intructions.

Geez, I got to find someone who has been in uiah.. Actually I already know one. Got to have a little chat with him

Hmm.. a little result of checking out the webpages of that artschool.. their student galleries SUCK! I'm sure these people have learned very little in the school.
But ye. let's cut the crap and interview the guys who have been there.

thanks again for answering to my questions. It has been helpful!
(at least to find out that there are people who are crawling in the same shit with me )

[jHof]

...Awwww hell! Thats what this stuff is all around me... Shit eh? Freak'n-A, I gota start using this pooper-scooper and kick my as in gear.

I'd say I'm inspired right now, but the thought will pass just like anything else I think about. Ack! (DORK, that kind of thinking is why your sitting, doing nothing in the first place!) Uhh... My mind has taken over my fingers...

Okie bye

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======== (IIVX) ========
"Why'ya got'a be so damn dufuss..."

I cleverly figured out how to add a 5th line to my signature file by

[Jezebel]

Although it's a lovely sketch and the artist did a swell job, those exact same sketches are in an anatomy book I have sitting here on my desk

So either the artist is sooooo good he/she was able to write a book about anatomy or they just copied someone else's piece, hehe.

-Beth

[Jezebel]

Do you happen to know the artist's name? That would be really cool if he/she did in fact make this book! :>

[Affected]

Partikle, you might want to get in touch with Saffron, he got in this year.

Oh, Rinaldo, 30-40 out of 300? Sounds like a pretty high percentage to me...

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Jason Manley]

fred...you are a man with similar blood as my own.

well said...

R H Ives Gammel once said that a teacher who cannot really do what they are teaching can only lead others to the path of their own failure.(most life drawing teachers I meet)...I look for teachers that can do demos...that is the surest way to find out if they are charletons or teachers.

Almost all my learning from other people comes from those who can do what they say....maybe one percent or less comes from people blabbing from books. I had many arguments in school over this kind of thing. I eventually only took classes from the teachers that had skills...not just words.

find a teacher who can do what you are trying to learn. They are the ones who can help you.

I learned at Ringling to find people who can help me with the answers I was seeking. an example would be asking the cartoonist illustrator about business things that the painting teacher would not know as the painter didnt work in a commercial field. I also wouldnt ask my color questions to the more unskilled cartoonist and go to someone who could help me with that question...you need an environment with a wide variety of skilled disciplines and teachers so that you can get as much real and tried and true information as you can.

and draw and do art all the time...every day.

jason

[Rinaldo]

Affected- yes it's not all that much of an achivment. I was just refering to the experiance. I would imagine that getting into the other schools mentiond here would be a lot harder. I simply felt the same way about selecting a school, but found that there is more than meets initial inspection. sorry if I sounded like I was talking myself up.

[inferno]

Jezebel: Yes probably you could see these sketches because i've scanned from the anatomy book by Jeno Barcsay. I was talking about the University of Fine Arts, Budapest above, where Jeno Barcsay was a teacher, and when he finished his anatomy book also included some sketches from the students.
(after his death they've translated his book to several other languages from Hungarian, and although it was written long ago, it's the most famous anatomy book here - and maybe the only one artistic-)
This university is not too far from me, and I was thinkin about if it's worth trying to get in a school such as this just like Partikle.

[This message has been edited by inferno (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Jezebel]

Interesting bit of information there! Thanks!

-Beth

[GodChi]

just bringing this up again - think it�s still a very interesting thread. would like to hear some more comments from someone else.

and: if you�re a real hardworker at arts teaching yourself and you can post your pics here in the forum to get feedback and from time to time you�re visiting some courses (like: 'figure drawing', 'oil painting', 'architecture', and so on...) to complete the things you learn in your artbooks and in this forum -> is this really enough?


[This message has been edited by GodChi (edited November 07, 2000).]

[jasonN]

Fred: You mentioned doing courses that aren't art related because it's good to have something else to fall on.
Well is Industrial Design too art orientated, or is it separate enough to stand as another profession?

I thinking about doing that course. It has some illustration in it, but it also deals with design, production, manufaturing etc..
So it's kinda of arty, but also technical.

Anyone done ID before? What are your opinions on it?