[-- Transcendent --]

Oh, my not another. I'll make this one simple.

Do we have free will ?

[Count Zero]

Yes.

[shahar2k]

maybe,
anyone here know any quantom physics? I don't want to embarres myself, when trying to explain this

[Mergatroid]

Its all relative....



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Mergatroid

[shahar2k]

quantum physics (from what little I think I know) says that all possibilities out there exist simultaniously, imagine time as having multiple dimentions, and we travel a certain path through it, each decision moving us along in our apparent linear path, but all other decisions and their results existing in the same universe on seprate levels. so while we have free will, everything is predetermined.

thing is, even if we did not have free will, the only way it would matter is if we could step outside reality and examine our actions, and no one I know has done that in the last existance timeframe.

[A.Buttle]

What is really important, and what I think shahar is trying to get at, is what does it matter? If we do have free will, then excellent. If we don't, who are we to know? There is no frame of reference. All we know is what we are, and if that is lacking free will, then there isn;t anyone alive who can tell us what it is like to have free will. With this taken into consideration, we might as well just think we have free will if it makes us feel better. It's not important.

------------------
So...which part of "get out of town freak" weren't you clear on, John?

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[shahar2k]

A. Buttle, right on!
it really is a pointelss question, but the thing is, from your point of view it'll always apear you have free will, or at least act as if you do. because frankly, blaming your crap on the lack of free will... is still your crap

I'm still looking for somone with a better understanding of quantom physics than me...
maybe I'll make a new post, I'm sure it'll be a popular subject

[-- Transcendent --]

Oh, but it does matter, very much.

Let's look at one scenario. We don't have free will, and each action we take is derived from a complex series of genetic mathematical calculations, electrical signals from the brain, a combination of hormonic changes, biological cycles, and conscious thought, that would make us "electrical machines", wouldn't it ? That would take away meaning from life.

Why ? There are many reasons.

1) This goes to show that there is no life after death. Because the human is simply a machine ... like the rat, the amoeba and the computer. And they don't live after they die.

2) It proves we don't need to take responsibility for our actions, as we did not have a choice to make them.

3) Inversely, our accomplishments and ambitions are worthless, as we, again, are just victims of chance.

The list just goes on.

So, *without* redefining free will, can we comprehend it ? Is there free will ? And what is free will ?

Again, I hope for more thoughtful answers this time.

[shahar2k]

rebuttal
1) why would life after death matter if you make choices or not? if there is a survival of something innate in a human being, it is not determined by what rules we follow.

2) by saying "we don't need to take responsibility for our actions" don't you mean we make the choice not to take responsibility? in which case, we either just used free will, or were never meant to take responsibility.

3) if you were meant to get a gold medal in olimpic water gurgling, the lack of free will, only matters if you can break it, so if you didn't get the medal than you were never meant to get it, or you made choices not to get it. you'r applying the Idea of free will to past accomplishments, and it's impossible, because you can't go back and say that you would have made a choice diffrently, because things will not transpire diffrently with all other conditions being the same (including your own knowlege)

which goes back to saying that free will or not, it does not matter. although the concept of free will causes regret, and the lack of it causes neglect. so I guess just choose what you want to live your life by.

[-- Transcendent --]

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but let me clarify myself. I think the best way to understand the concept of free will is to look at a computer.

Let's start with a thought experiment on "evil and responsibility". If your computer were to format your hardrive accidentally (by itself, that is, due to a bug in it's code), would you be angry with it ? Would you avenge your computer for it ? Was it the computer's fault ? Would you blame your computer for it ? No. It wasn't the computer's fault you see, it was simply executing faulted code. It was a victim to the faulty code, if that sounds better. It was a fault in programming.

If your computer generated fascinating landscapes at random (it's possible to teach color, form and composition to a computer, with a programmer talented enough, I've heard of terragen which does something similar to this), would you compliment your computer for it's good work ? No. You could compliment it's programming. Again, the computer executed the code, and therefore, could not choose otherwise. Therefore, it didn't accomplish anything.

If humans were computers, just a little more advanced, without free will, then what is evil, what is accomplishment, and what is responsibility ? Nothing more than words.

I hope this clarifies a little.

Oh, and I'm making a large assumption that free will comes from something beyond this physical realm, in the form of a soul, if you will, therefore equating to life after death. Inversely, without a soul, it is then easy to look at your brain as a "machine", therefore not surviving death.

Hmmm. Is this silly ?

[Count Zero]

But the point is, lack of free will can not be proven. And our society works on the fact that people DO have free will, otherwise prisons wouldn't exist.
If you, as an individual think there is no free will, you're not going to get far in life. "Oh, I messed up my English test. Not because I didn't study, but because it was 'fated'. So I won't try harder because I have a certain lot in life that I cannot affect."
Ok, ok, a bit sarcastic and pointed, but you get my drift?

[Superbug]

No we do not have free will. Think about it:

1) If God exists out of space and time, he must theoritcally view the world in one instance or moment incomprehendible to us.
2) Since God views the world and knows all outcomes of situations, he obviosly knows what we do and our fate.

3)Therefore, even though the Bible says Man has freewill, he cannot since God already knows our every move

ahhh yes the classical theolgen problem

secondly

Since everything has cause and an effect. Our decisions are the obvios effect of some cause. Therefore what we do has been predetermined from the very beggining of whatever.
:P

[Ragnarok]

Yep, they come from our intelligence and, if god doesn't exist? We have free will, haven't we? You already thought god exists.

[Nex]

I typed this up in the campfire#2 -here is a short version of it:

A theory (I think its a derivation from the quantum theory) states that for every action there is an infinite number of reactions/outcomes. Every one of those exists in a separate plane/space-time-bubble.
So if god exists then he will see an infinite^infinite^infinite^... (an infinite number of times) number of existing timelines.
So if you have an infinite number of actions you can take then you have free will.



[This message has been edited by Nex (edited November 16, 2000).]

[shahar2k]

Nex: I think that theory is in Quantom Theory, although I'm not sure, that's why I was asking, that's the theory I was refering to

basically, if everything was predetermined, people would do something, and it would be unchangeable. and if Free will exists, than people would do something and you could THEORISE it might have been diffrent, but you can never tell.

[-- Transcendent --]

Nex, I've heard of that theory, though, not in this context. (not the infinity bit) Still, it does not prove that we have free will. In fact, to a large extent, it disproves free will, because, according to this theory, we are randomly thrown into one of an infinite number of dimentions each time you, or someone else "chooses" do something.

Is that, then, free will, or basic randomness ? To what extent can we exert a force to bend the odds of quantum randomness to our side ?

But it's shown clearly from our everyday lives that this is not the case, and we have a certan degree of control over our actions. Fathermore, each action we take comes from some degree of coherenet thought and logical dedcution, and we tend to choose the more benefical of two when given a choice.


------------------
Formally know as Transcendent

[shahar2k]

Trans: draw yourself a grid of 10 by 10, put a dot in a random place. now, where could it move? (you should have 8 places, including diagonals) now imagine 8 more sheets of paper, all containing one of those positions. now, for each of these 8 sheets, you got 8 more sheets, containing the positions possible from there, and so on and so forth, untill all possibilities are taken up.
now, if the dot could chose where to go, then it would go to one of these 8 positions (or stay in place) and then the next place, and so on. (this is the free will case)

but if it was predestined to go somewhere, well, then each time it gets ready to move to one position, all 7 other positions it does not move to, are erased from history. now, this is the "no free will" case

in either way, the dot would move, in a certain way, it would start somewhere, go through somewhere, and end up somewhere, but the supposed "other possibilities" would only exist if Free will existed,
unfortunately they would be inaccesible, since they would be in the past.

that is why free will is irrelevant. while THINKING you have free will is very relevant, because it causes you to act one way or the other, (what can I say, it's hard to understand, but think of it, as a self fulfiling prophecy)

[Count Zero]

Claiming there is no free will is just a ploy made up by lazy ppl who don't want to take responsibility for their actions or their lives.

[Ragnarok]

I agree with you Count, ppl hate being responsible so they make up reasons to be lazy and irresponsible

[-- Transcendent --]

Well then, would I suppose Freud was lazy and irresponsible ? He established the foundation that free will does not exist.

2k, I see what you mean. But the concept of "choosing" is still elusive ... you see, we are like a photon of light, so to speak. We always choose the path which leads us to our goals in the most straghtfoward way. Think about that.

Personally, I believe free will exists. So I don't know why I'm standing here aruging otherwise. But It's fun, I guess.

[shahar2k]

Transcendant, well, think of it this way, I could say that I'm wearing an ultraviolet colored shirt, and that it's very clearly ultraviolet colored, but ultraviolet is not a wavelength of light that humans can even precieve, so if you said it was a red shirt, well... I'd have no way to prove it to you unless I took you out of what humans precieve using a special device, free will is like that, it's an outside factor, and unless you are OUTSIDE humans, well, you aren't going to see free will.

[Count Zero]

Freud also "found" (created is more like it) the Oedipus complex. And his reply to all sceptics was "You're repressing".
And I was (partially) joking.
Lack of free will sounds very behaviouristic, going by your primal insticts. This approach then understimates the human mind (and soul?).
Even if there is no free will, there still is the ILLUSION of free will, which, for me, is just as good. For your sake, you better fucking not brake it.

[Nex]

quote:

---

we are like a photon of light, so to speak. We always choose the path which leads us to our goals in the most straghtfoward way.

---

thats not really true because (I finally refreshed my quantum physics a bit) a photon is a quantum particle and goes EVERY WAY AT ONCE that it can go.

One quantum particle can be at more than one location at the same time, so a photon really is not just traveling along a defined path but along all paths that it could travel at the same time.

only by measuring you define the particle's undetermined state to a determined one.
converting the probability of a certain state to an actual outcome.

quote:

---

according to this theory, we are randomly thrown into one of an infinite number of dimentions each time you, or someone else "chooses" do something.

---

but it IS that way in real life.
If someone drops a brick from his window then YOU are maybe feeling the effect of that. Randomness is a function of freedom of choice. If something does happen randomly then its not DETERMINED. And if something is not DETERMINED then its not PREDETERMINED.

NOT (Predetermined) = free

If you would be free to choose a number from 451 to 459 and everyone else on the world would too the outcome would be a random one -> free choice

(I choose a range of 451 and 459 because some lower numbers have symbolic meanings in some cultures (like 3, 7, 1, 9, 66, 100, 12, age, birthdate..) and are so more likely to be chosen.)

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited November 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited November 18, 2000).]

[shahar2k]

here's the interesting thing about free will
lets say it didn't exist, and everything worked accoarding to the infamous "unified fields theory" that dosn't exist
but lets say we found a mathematical code for life
and could predict the future...
now, you know how you will die, and when
would you be able to prevent it...

[Count Zero]

Ooh, but if you were able to prevent your own death, that would mean there IS free will...
But if you wouldn't be able to prevent your own death, it would be rather depressing.

[shahar2k]

well, the thing is, if you found a formula for predicting life, you would have no real reason to live
I mean once you know this, any kind of goal you've had in life, would disapear.

I think this was the message behind the movie PI which is VERY GOOD
heh you can go crazy thinking about this people, so do so at your own risk