[Frost]

Seeing Kos.Mandis get helpful feedback from the guys, I was thinking it would maybe be a good thing for me to get some on my 'Post Apocalytpic' picture since it was the last finished piece I made.

I'm more or less happy with it and I have spent over 20 hours on it so please respect that and be nice if you can. Anything you can spot wrong in a general sense in dealing with composition, color, etc would be welcome.

The objective here is for me (and for others I'm sure) to learn without being torn down.



Personally, what I see wrong with it is the poor lighting/shadowing on the guy, his gun hand too small for how close it is to the camera (perspective issue), over detailing useless parts and underdetailing important ones, incoherant perspective in the buildings. (don't bother commenting on the floating guy in the background=). I've learned a bit since...

Thanks a lot guys.
frost.

ed: The steps to the creation of it are here. (Eek, that left shoulder is messed...)


[This message has been edited by Frost (edited June 18, 2000).]

[Francis]

I wouldn't have too much to say in the way of critique - the background is great. The lighting seems pretty consistent, although maybe the core shadow across the front of the torso could be broader, given that the main light source seems to be from somewhere behind the guy.

At first glance, the figure appears a little dumpy or something - however, that's not necessarily a bad thing, if that was your intention. I remember picking up a Wolverine/Havok comic miniseries painted by Kent Williams (I think?) where Wolverine was depicted as a sort of short dumpy guy, and it worked really well in my opinion.

This type of painting usually has the typical "ideal" male guy as its subject, so in a way this is cool.

The guy's left hand is about a hundred times better looking than the right hand. I think you could also have more definition in the arm holding the gun - his arm should be sort of straining to hold the gun up in that cantilevered position, so it would be nice to see some of that tension in the arm. By definition, I don't necessarily mean low body fat type definition, but just more of a sense of the forces at work in the arm.

Very nice piece tho!

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TeamGT Studios

[pst]

The only thing I see right away is his right hand which could have been done better. Other from that this picture rocks, I love all the details, which is also very creative. The atmosphere and the mood in the pic is also cool and inspiring.

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pSt [email protected]

[above]

I love it Frost, I think the colors are excellent and love the overall feel of the image. Very good job. The best part of the image is finding all the names from this forum on it.

[BooMSticK]

Hi Frost.

at last an opportunity to comment on this pic.

First of I would like to say that there are areas in this picture that totally rocks..the left hand and gun..the background...his left leg is really great rendered, but it seems a little short to me. the car is great also...

My biggest concern is the dude's face. It seems a little NOT constructed...If you know what I mean.

Otherwise this is a great pic and it was among my top three picks for the 3dpalette contest.

cool stuff indeed!

,boomer

[AcidDrone]

omg Frost hope ya dont mind but im using it as my wallpaper
that is so sweet
looks great on 1280x960 too.
I tried to add "the american dream" text to it but it just looked fux3d so i gave up.

[Frost]

Francis - Thanks a lot for the input. =) It's really funny how the longer you look at something the more you see how terribly wrong it is. Tension comment noted. Thanks.

Booomstick - Thank you. Indeed, the face, as well as some other important features are really not worked out. Fred's and Mozeman's lessons are helping here I think -- hopefully, I 'll be able to implement better figures in future drawings after doing some of their lessons... =]

pst/above/aciddrone - I'm glad you like it. =))


I wonder what Fred, Vebjorn, Mozeman, (or even Craig Mullins if he's still around) etc. think is wrong in it and what I should look into...

Thanks.
frost.

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited June 19, 2000).]

[Frost]

Fred, Veb, ... ? 'please'?

I hate having to beg, but it seems like I must...

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited June 20, 2000).]

[kurisu]

American Dream... sigh

[kos.mandis]

A few pointers that I hope will help

-the thumb of his right hand
-the face and perhaps the hair look a bit odd
-his left hand should be bigger

...but it's such an awesome job overall-an an even greater background.

Well done man!

[Kyri]

Hi Frost,
I've always liked this one a lot, the attention to detail is incredible, there is so much to look at. You did a really great job on the backround, the gun and the blast coming from it is awesome....I think the lighting on the guy is fine....if I was to suggest anything about him I would say maybe
his left shoulder on the right lacks definition, it kinda just blends into his upper arm, like one solid mass, I hope I'm making sense here, sometimes I confuse myself, heh, heh... ;P and his hands and
legs are a little small.

These are just minor quibbles tho, overall it's a fantastic pic with a strong gritty realism that is not easy to achieve, or so I've found. Awesome work.

[Anthony]

Weird subject. I'd pull the back of his left leg down a bit-that, I think, is what's making it look short.

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-Anthony
Carpe Carpem

[Fred Flick Stone]

Frost, you friend's with Loki? Just noticed the Loki's tool shop sign in the background...
Sorry, I would have responded sooner, but I haven't been around the computer at all. I have been too busy trying to find a place to live. Still having trouble, and I am out this weekend. Yikes...
First, I would like to say that the rendering you do is really nice. I am escpecially impressed with the pants and boots on this guy. I am really impressed...
On to the figure...I will make honest crit's, nothing bashing, so please don't take these wrong. The trailing arm is very stiff, and seems to feel very stumpy through the hand. The fingers don't look bad, but the thumb needs work. Very blocky in it's form...Also, there is no palm region of this hand. The small pad of the palm, next to the thumb pad is not there. Because of it's abscence, it makes the hand look like it is the arm, and not a part of the arm...I hopee that makes some sense...The shoulder of this are should have more stretch in it if that trailing arm is thrown back as far as it is in relation tothe figure. The shoulders look like the arms are resting at the sides of the figure, they don't have that thrust that this guy is giving off in his pose...not yet at least...The left arm, while it is much better modelled, I get the sense that he is throwing this arm out forward to shoot the gun. If this were the case, then I would say that the volume of the hand needs to be increased, and each segment of the arm tapers back a bit from there. With this type of Dramatic emphasis on the shapes of the arm, it should read better as thrusting forward.
The torso is a bit stiff too. If you draw a centerline from the pit of the neck through the crotch, that centerline is relatively straight. This pose has much motion involved, with this thought in mind, it would be much nicer to see the figure contorted and twisting in the direction he visually seems to be going in. It is merely a lack of understanding of the dynamics of the human form. Knowing that the body shifts it's weight from shoulders to hips to compensate for any action the body is taking on will only help you get a more convincing pose.
THe arm pit on the left side is too far down the side of the guy, it makes a hole on the side of his torso. I have a hard time seeing it read as an arm pit only. This might actually work to your advantage though if this a mutant of sorts...
A big recommendation for this type of "figurative Guesswork" would be to get in front of a mirror, take off your shirt, and pose in this exact pose. Pose yourself with acting in mind though. Don't just set yourself up in the pose. As this will only enhance the stiffness the pose is already going in. throw down a pile of stuff in your room, put something in your hand that resembles "gun", and fire away, while looking in the mirror at yourself. THere should be a point in time that what your doing will "look cool" to you. This is probably the angle of the pose that you will want to start with for this particular drawing.
Another way of knowing whether or not your pose is working for you is to take the outline of your figure, and fill it all in with black. If you can still read what the figure is supposed to be doing with no details at all, then the pose will more than likely work for you. The pose you chose is not a bad one, but it could be better. Especially when you have such a great hand with all the other stuff. The back of that car, the pants, the boots, the background, the color pallette, they are all working fantastically. Need to get caught up to speed with the figure now too. An artist by the name of Micheal Whelan, not one of my favorite, but does a descent job with sci fi art. Does every book cover under the sun...But he has a book out on his stuff. He has one particular painting, I can't remember which one, but the pose started very similar to this one. But, because the pose wasn't interesting enough, he redrew and redrew, from other angles, other vantage points, etc. till he got a really good working figure. I like his sketches better, as the final rendering got way too stiff. He is overkill with smoothing everything out,Blechh,
Thumbnail the heck out of the pose. If this is your weakest suit in this type of art, it should be the primary focus of your practice paintings. All the rest of the stuff in the image you can take on and paint like there is no tomorrow. Really force yourself to work twice as hard at what you may not know all that well, and don't make up figure poses completely. Use yourself, or a friend as reference to make sure you have the kinetics working, the anatomical structure, and the proper overlapping, and foreshortening of the form. Get all this stuff right early on, and the whole image is going to appeal to you...I am attracted to this piece, but what suffers in it are the tangencies of the human form that you are still in need of learning.
Hope that helps a bit. I saved the piece because like I said, I enjoy it, regardless of the anatomical errors. It really has something to say...a kind of in your face sort of thing...

[Frost]

Kurisu -

Kos&Anthony - Thanks. =) Anatomy and pose is next on my list of studies I guess. =)

Kyri - Thanks for the input. Really appreciated. Truly. =)

Fred - Excellent critique -- exactly what I wanted from you. What you wrote made absolute sense, and you're right about the pose and the anatomy. The stiffness is something I need to work on, but am not sure how to remedy, or even how to spot it myself (maybe I'm just stiff stress-mess myself?). I really need to spend more time on anatomy, and I guess buying some books is in order... I really need to look into animation at this point to get a better feel for all this (not to mention it would help me greatly at work). This is probably something I should be embarassed asking publicly, but what do you mean precisely by "proper overlapping, and foreshortening" -- they are terms I don't know how to apply to anatomy and form.. in any way linked to perspective?

As for being Loki's "friend", well, I wouldn't want to pretend to be -- but he's a real great guy who's been giving me some good feedback and comments on my stuff, I truly appreciate his involvement, talent and support... same for the others listed at random locations (hope I didn't embarass anyone).

Thanks a great deal to everyone for their input -- it makes me realise a lot more than I would have otherwise. It would just be neat if Veb and others would give me more pointers, perhaps on the colors and contrasts...

frost.

[freddy flicks stones]

Frost-golook at the thread of jeanjean's ,Schoolwork, human body in motion to kinda get an idea of overlapping form. Visually, it is explained there, as for what it is-it represents, muscle, tendon, cartiledge, bone, whatever, that is a part of another portion of the anatomy, i.e. parts of the deltoid insert up on the top of the shoulder gerdle, the front of the chest, the back, and on the back of the upper arm. Where this muscle "inserts" into the form, it overlaps other defined contours of the topography of the human form, or as an example, the deltoid inserts into the upper part of the arm under the tricep, and under the bicep. This point of insertion is an overlap of forms, if you look at the outside contour line of the arm.
Using my image as an example, the entire knee location inserts into the calf region of the leg. The upper head of the fibula is one spot, as is the tibial band passing over the outer condyle of the right side of the tibula, our left side(the viewers). On the inside, it is the tibia again creating the major insertion line, and then the calf muscle that has aslight insertion into the lower region of the calf, then again, the foot overlaps the leg, thus creating two overlapping lines at the base of the lower leg. These are insertion lines. Look on the guy I did a tracing of, I broke his body down into different body masses. Where each of these masses inserts into another part of the body, the shoulders to the torso, the neck to the shoulders, the hands over the forearms, and all the succeeding overlapping forms on the legs, all have insertion, or overlapping lines to connect one form to the other. Without these lines, the figure would look very rudamentary cartoony, and the action would be difficult to read.
With all that said, I can also offer you this. You have a fairly monochromatic color pallette. With an addition of one color, and a primary to your tertiary pallette. Your palette dominant color is burnt sienna, a bastard child of the red family. You have a few hintss of red in the foreground, you have enough hints of red to balance the spots of red out. This concept is going to be a bit confusing so bare with me.
You have also introduced an opposing color, or close to complementary color to the image, or an additional color, blue. It stands out against the monocromatic background. And that is a.o.k. But, it needs a third spot, or triad, to help balance out the two knees. Because as of right now, those are the center of attention. Why? Because they contrast everything else in the image, and there are two of them, which really equals one in the viewers eye, because they are directly across from one another, and almost equal on their horizon line. A third spot of blue , and an intense one, like the knees is necessary to knock away the sense of overpowering contrast. I would add blue to the metal of the gun. But this isn't going to answer your problem, it is only going to enhance it. Why? It is still basically in a straight line with the other two spots, and this time, it would basically divide your image into an upper and lower divisional image. Two in one because of a cut off line, or the spots of blue, creating a dividing line between upper and lower poles...
The way to cure this? You need a focal point. You want his face to be that focal point. This is where he evokes emotion. Here is where you will complete your triad of blue, the triangular coordinates that compliment one another, thus the name...
Blue in his hair, and blue in his beard region would frame the face perfectly, and draw the eye to the top of the image first. It is all illusory, and psychological, thus, too long to discuss here. Maybe a tutorial on the psychology of color sometime...and the psychology of composition, and composition with color, etc...
Adding this blue would complete bringing the figure to the foreground...don't add anymore blue to the background though, at least not the intensity of the hue of blue that is foreground dominant. You could introduce some really deep indigo blue into the shadow areas of the image to really helpdeepen them, but be selective about this decision too, as you have a monochrome scheme already going, and it works well.
The perspective on your buildings is off, especially the building behind his gun arm, with all the squre windows. This is a hidden area where proper cube analysis will help alot. You will automatically begin to see perspective and horizon line flaws. As the windows on that one particular building are kinda all residing on different horizon lines. The same point in space for all those windows my friend
The last thing I will bark about is the treatment of the building all the way to the left. Is this a warehouse, or did you get a bit lazy on detail. A great amount of emphasis is necessary all around the image if you already headed down this path. Leaving one area to lack of depth, or detail ends up calling itself out a bit...This area slightly stands out a bit as an area lacking the strengths and qualities you have placed everywhere else. Lets see that detail mahn...
I hope all this also helps you out. I am running low on fuel and need to go consume substances enriched with nothing healthy whatsoever...
P.S. I still like this image regardless of its drawbacks...which are really only a lack of understanding and mileage, which you are getting both of these days...can't wait to see the next big image...good luck with it all.

[kurisu]

So, Fred, forgive me if I missed this tale in another thread (or worse - in this one!), but what's the dealio with dual imperative and indicative screen names? I mean, do you have an evil twin brother who is trying to gain our trust and then slowly work his wiles on us - only to flick stones at us???



-k

PS: Frost - what Fred said

[Frost]

Fred - Thanks, again. Image design is something I am totally new to, and have read about in your previous posts some days ago, hopefully a bad but first version of this understanding will make it in my next pic (whenever that is). The perspective flaws (in the windows you noticed)... I had misplanned my pic and the horizon line is unknown even to me (very bad)... the view points were off canvas and I simply 'estimated' some perspective guidelines without even considering the horizon (extremely bad). I had to hack a visual fix that is very easily noticeable by someone of your calibre, ideally, this should not happen again. =) Lack of detail on the "warehouse"... laziness. This was a very ambitious project for me and I was really fed up at the end... I went way too far in detailing and that was a very wrong thing to do, at least when you don't finish it.

Thanks a great deal for the help and for pointing out such things as what I could have done to improve its value. Thanks!


Kurisu - Haha..

[Fred Flick Stone]

Kurisu-I am many many faces...no, one is my name at home, I forgot the password I registered with at work, and I wanted to reply one night, so I registered with a slight version of the original name...
They are my yin and yang sides of me

[Francis]

Ron's got a pair of Stones...

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Francis Tsai


[This message has been edited by Francis (edited June 21, 2000).]