[Fred Flick Stone]

This is the sort of practice I try to do in my spare time, although I admit I am doing much more photoshop after hours studies lately. I had two really great images I was working on, but I accidentally trashed them when I was cleaning out my hard drive. A good lesson, don't ever name your files something you aren't going to remember later. That is what I did, and I put them in an already CD burned folder, so I had two strikes going against me anyway. I guess I deserve it. So, out of my frustrations, I once again had to pull out some of the practice paintings, scan them and post em. I really wanted these to be digital this time. Oh well.
This is the stuff I do for practice. Each of these are 4 inces by 6 inches, and are done in gouache. Each was done in an hour and a half, with very minimal pencil lines to start with. What I am attempting in these paintings are to find and match colors correctly, find shape through color more than line, and loosen up, without having such a tight underdrawing to rely upon. I have dozens of these. This is just my favorite page of them.

Please feel free to tear me a new as$#0!e with comments and critiques. Since I don't have anyone telling me what I am doing wrong anymore, I need it from somewhere. Tear away...

[Fred Flick Stone]

Can you post images side by side here? Or is everything in astacking order?

[Rinaldo]

They are all pretty good Fred

My only problem is with the first space ship image (looks like star trek). The white stripe around the planet is presenting itself as a graphic shape that doesn't make much sense. I don't Know wheather it's anothe planet behind the first or some sort of atmospheric effect.

I'd really like to see some of your digital work.

[Fred Flick Stone]

RInaldo-your screen might be a bit dark, as it is a red planet back lit. Both the space images are star trek, I was practicing for a painted graphic novel, and Wildstorm productions wanted to make sure that I could paint tech. Since these were freehand and done in an hour, they had no problem with me painting the techy thing after that...
Thanks for the crits. These were also sketches, so roughness was a factor that I had to deal with. I really didn't want to go for absolute photo real, that takes too long, and these were quick sketches.

[CapnPyro]

*sigh* those are beautiful fred. ill give it my best shot at critiquing them though..it will probably end up more as nit picking cause nothing that i see is fundamentally wrong

1) The sky seems a bit to blue to cast such a yellow/purple hue on everything, um.. clouds are a bit stiff, moutains far away should be foggier/more purple (?)

2) Err.. well hell. That looks really nice. I cant say ive ever seen a planet from outerspace but maybe the highlight on the planet is to bright and sharp (?)

3) Sheesh from a distance it looks like a photograph, i love the composition and framing on this one, also just the spotilight on her is awesome. err, i cant think of a critique or anything sawwy

4) heh looks like a standard 3d modeled shot of the voyager coming in out of warp. only its gauche... thats amazing im sure you see the planet sticks out from the crispness of the spaceship.. but you did it so fast probably didnt have time to tighten it up.

amazing stuff fred... especially for the size. early today i was just thinking i hadnt seen any of your work... now i have.. and i see why your an art teacher. hope my comments arent completely wrong, like a little league player telling nolan ryan to work on his form

-CapnPyro-

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http://home1.gte.net/capnpyro

[Nex]

well what can I say? I don't know much about all the theory so all I can offer you is my instinct:

The first thing that came to my imd is that the atmosphere of the planet in the second image does not look real to me. maybe add some clouds since there is atmosphere there might as well be clouds there.

I definitely am deeply in love with the picture No.3 it's so alife.. not just because there is a person in this picture.

The first picture seems to draw my eye to the right to the cactus, I think there should be something on the rock nearest to the viewer.. maybe some deatil, some scorpion, anything (I know this has nothing to do with what was you goal in this, the color, but it came to my mind so I thought I should tell you)

The clouds on the first picture in the back (right corner) look very smooth, there could be some darker and lighter patches in between..

in the beach picture there could be some cast shadows on the palm tree to the right from the leaves.

I feel stupid to write all this somehow because you are a lot more advanced, feel free to ignore all i wrote.
I just though, since you take the time to critique my attemps in your tutorial I would take the time too and try to critique.

[Fred Flick Stone]

Hey nex, thank you for the comments. I am looking for them, and anyone brings up sound advice, even if they don't think it might be. What you say is something I didn't consider because I am too close to the stuff to see it, or I did it, so I don't look back too subjectively. I am more concerned with other issues, and tend to forget the big picture. You guys seeing them with fresh eyes are making valid opinions that will only help me for next time around.

And Capnpro, thank you for your comments to. These are all things I will next time around pay a little more attention to.

Keep dishin em out if you have em...they are all read and taken into consideration, and are all refreshing and help me out more than you know. Thanks again...

[kurisu]

Hello Fred,
This is (I think) the first reply I've made to a post of yours. Forgive me if I sound harsh, but I'm simply speaking my mind.
I think an hour and a half is very fast, so I find it difficult to critique without saying things to myself like "well, with more time, he'd have probably done this or that differently"... In addition, these seem to draw from some reference material, and if so, makes it hard for me to critique - as it would just be a matter of refering to the photo for fixes (know what I mean?) Here go my thoughts...
If loosening up is one of your goals, I think your best attempt is with the jungle image #3. The Star Trek paintings to me look stiff, as does the first painting. Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by "loosening up." For me, it means to not be too concerned with details and refinement but focus on the overall composition, colors, forms, etc. The first painting, for example, looks overworked to me - perhaps a quicker job would have rendered more life to it for me. The third, in contrast, exhibits an explosion of life - the strokes are bold and the colors vibrant.
When were these painted? They look very different in terms of quality and style (perhaps done with some span of time in between?). Do you sign your work - or are these just tests and you felt okay with leaving the signatures out (or am I just blind?! :P)?
I would be interested to see how you apply these tests and techniques to paintings from your imagination (unless these are from your imagination - in which case, please forgive!). By imagination, I don't mean a Star Trek ship, but a design of your own (know what I mean?) Also, I have not followed your face painting tutorial as it takes too long to load on my piddly machine - so forgive me if that was filled with this very material!
For the Star Trek image #2, I agree with the fact that the planet's highlight is too sharp and its color is perhaps too different from the rest of the planet. I also think that the disk of the ship and the area just below it (fat cone-like connection) looks somewhat flat and the engine's highlight closest to the viewer looks muddied (specular highlight not sharp enough).
In summary, I feel that the third painting is the strongest. It possesses, by far, the most life and dynamics. The others didn't stir much in me. Though, in my opinion, they are technically well done (considering time taken [!] and with the exception of my above comments).

I hear you about loosing work. There have been a few images, models and animations that I was most happy with, and then lost. This has got to be one of the most frustrating situations and is difficult, at least for me, to deal calmly with.

I did not mean to be offensive in any way with my thoughts. To those who might take offense at my reply, please bear in mind that 1) I think Fred can take it, and 2) if he disagrees I think he will say so. That means: no problems.

Hope some of this helps in some way!

Ciao,
-kurisu

[Frost]

I love the girl pic. Really like it a lot, especially the decor, the reflection in the water I don't quite grasp. (shaded underside of trees with a bit of a blue sky piercing thru(?), I think I should be able to make out the reflection of the girl's head from this angle).

The others don't personally appeal to me, but that's just a matter of it not being my style, that's all. I think the planet glow on the second one should be a little more diffused if you take into account an atmosphere and/or surface/terrain... just seems a bit sharp. I could be wrong. Perhaps some lighting coming from behind (top right of) the ship would help also -- seems to lack the lightsource the planet has (maybe a planet is occluding it) =).

[Fred Flick Stone]

Kurisu-I dig those comments. Stuff I thrive on. My only comment back would be about what was said concerning toe copy thing. The only real way to learn color, is to observe it, and match it if you can. Each of these paintings were only painted with two or three colors, and black and white. I am trying to narrow my spectrum of having a pallette with fifty colors on it(exxagerated number) and only using four or five of them anyway. So, I am attempting to stretch a limited pallette as far as I can, without needing to introduce new colors.
For example, the girl in the water sorrounded by green trees had no green in the pallette. I used flame red, cadmium yellow pale, and thalo blue to paint this painting, along with black and white to adjust the values of the colors.
Onanother comment, I would love to show you some of the made up stuff I apply the color practices to once I can release the stuff legally. 12 hours out of every day for me is spent working on Myst and two other projects I cannot disclose at this time for legal reasons, and all the creative work is going there. As soon as I get to do my own stuff again, these projects will be out on teh market, and then I am going to swarm this forum with digital art, and stuff I have invented. Otherwise, I am in a position where I just can't show that stuff now. But I can say this, all this practice copying photos, and learning about color and form has allowed me the jobs I have recieved, all of which involve total creativity. So I am blessed and thankful that all this work is paying off.
No less, I really love the crits you made, very valid.
The hour and a half time frame is to ensure I don't overwork the subject matter(the image) The enterprise peice had so few objects in it, it allowed me to spend more time in the greeblie part of it. These are loose to me because I didn't project, trace or transfer the images to board. These were all done on the fly, the thing I was most impressed with was how accurate I could get things, without actually spending time on the underdrawing, because there is virtually no underdrawings here...
So they are lose to me, but to others they most certainly have the tight look to them. That is ok for me, just as long as I learned what I needed from them, I don't care what anybody thinks. I am just glad they have the huevos to actually critique the work...

[Doc Holliday]

Great stuff Fred!!!! I was wondering what brand of goauche do you use? I've been using Turner design Goauche, its cheaper that windsor & newton yet i think its has more covering power and handles better. Another thing do you work you up through washes or do you take the more traditional goauche route, dark to light? Thanks.

[Fred Flick Stone]

Doc Holliday-I use windsor newtons exclusively...I tried turners, but I didn't like the consistency of the paint. Too oversaturated with linseed oil, or whatever the mixture is in it that is supposed to prevent the paint from drying. It just makes the stuff gooey.
I actually try many different approaches, but my absolute is direct. A very no B.S. approach. Gotta get it right the first time or it shows as working it to death...
All the techniques have their time and place. I am just not a big fan of acrylic paint, and the wash technique is played out in that medium, and since I used to only paint in acrylics, before I learned oils and gouache, I tried to abandon all the wash techniques too. I have a Darth Maul painting I did in the wash technique. Maybe I will post it some time. It was a very different approach, and the work shows it. Over concentrated in detail. But, again, it was an exercise in learning, so I am not going to chastise myself for it. Thanks for the crits...

[Doc Holliday]

Thanks, I've been using the more direct way also. Seeing a sargent up close affects you very deeply. The problem is that goauche is so expensive especially winsor & newton, i guess its just a matter of being more confident with the brush strokes. I have seem to have no problem using that approach in oil, I guess its just a matter of practice.

PS the pin-ups on your site are beautiful!!!

[samdragon]

Good Lord! 4x6 and with gouache. You are truly a mad man!
It's great to see color sketches. When most people think of sketches, they think of pencils. Painters do a whole bunch of these "sketches" before they move on to the actual image. I love to see the progress of images, great stuff. Got any more images you can show? This is great stuff to see!
Some good critiques have already been suggested, so I'll see if I can nit pick anything else out of it...

If these are going to be done for Graphic Novels, where will the text go? I see that you have left some room in both of the trek images, so I'm assuming the text will go there. It's hard to force yourself to leave some dead space in a composition.
The first image, would be much stronger if it where bigger, as this is a sketch, I can't really comment to much on that, the final may be much bigger. I like the colors and shapes you have going on there, but it's starting to become confusing on the right side with all the information. I really like what you've done with the ambient lighting in the first one also, the background shapes are nicely rendered. The addition of the cacti (is that correct or is it cactuses) to break up the horizon is very nice! The picture would be totally different if they were to be removed.
The second image,
Great use of repetition with the circular shape, I hope you continue this with the final image. You did a great job of keeping the focus on the ship and toning down the planet. Usually I cringe when I see things that are that close to the edge (the ships furthermost part on the right), but here it's working, as this offsets the centering effect. Just be careful when it's reproduced, it may bleed off the edge.
The third image...
Wow, great work. I love the colors you used to get the greens, using colors out the tube is ok, but to get the best results brew your own! I love it. Compositionally, it's working nicely, the trunks of the trees frame the woman and hold my eyes on her. The translucent green of the foliage helps my eye move out of the frame and through out the image. The added light coming through the tress in the background, just behind the woman is a very nice surprise. Great job all around.
The fourth image...
I like the shape being repeated from the upper most right of the ship into the curvature of the planet. Nice continuity. The use of light is very nice, You've got some great shapes happing because of that.
My only problem with the two "trek" images, How can you make something so over done seem interesting? Are you going to play up the detail in the final images to compensate for this, or add another element?
Do you get to read the novels before you do the covers, or do you just get tidbits of info?
Now that I think about it. If a buyer wants to buy a star trek book, the first thing they probably look for is the familiar image of the ship, or the trek font.

I think your compositions are working for all of these images as well as the color choices, maybe not so much blue in the ships metal(it could be my monitor too). Great stuff all around, will you be posting the final images as well?

[Fred Flick Stone]

Thank you Doc. Did you see the Sargent show? It was impressive and mind blowing. It really does humble you out to see a show of that level of proficiency and magnitude. Makes me appreciate art much more than ever...also gives me a goal to try to ever get that good. Hopefully that happens with just about every artist that got to see that show...

[Doc Holliday]

Sadly I never went to washington I just make monthly visits to the Metropolitan to look at Madame X NYC is a wonderful place. The illustration house a couple of weeks ago had an amazing collection of pin-up art, rockwell, Robert Mcginnis, and dean cornwell it was unbelievable. Had to pick up my paint brushes and do something.

[This message has been edited by Doc Holliday (edited June 12, 2000).]

[Fred Flick Stone]

which illustration house is this? I am in a mad search for daen cornwell and Robert Mcginnis stuff. Did they have any books on these two particular artists? I have been on a hunt for the Dean Cornwell book, but for $900, I am just not ready to spend rent money on one book. And Robert Mcginnis is supposed to be releasing a coffee table book soon, but I am not sure when it is due out...Did they have any repros or anything? I am curious and hungry for their work. Thanks again...
Your profile has no web page listed. You have one yet? I also noticed you do roughly the same things proffessionally right now, anything new on your horizon work wise? Post any work, I would love to see some of it...

[This message has been edited by Fred Flick Stone (edited June 12, 2000).]

[Doc Holliday]

The Illustration House is NYC, specifically on 96 spring street in SOHO. www.illustration-house.com
They are the ones that published the Leyendecker book. They hold auctions all the time, and are really nice people. I believe you're located in san diego so imagine it would be difficult for you getting there. The only thing they ever published on cornwell was a small catalog, not much but still better than nothing.
As for me I just recently graduated from art school (school of visual arts). I'm doing some freelance around NY, mostly cartoony/comic book type stuff. Nothing in your league im sure


[This message has been edited by Doc Holliday (edited June 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Doc Holliday (edited June 12, 2000).]

[Fred Flick Stone]

Doc-this place is/was run by walt reed and his brother. They were top dogs in their time.
As for the comic work, been doing it forever. Got some trading cards published with Wildstorm, and going to be doing some stuff for DC. I had worked in the Skate/Snowboard industry for 14 years. I had to do plenty of the cartoony comic stuff there too. After doing about 700 board graphics-GRAPHICS-mind you, I wanted to give it a go with just straight up illustration. I think character design comes synonymous with doing comic book work, since the costumes involved in comics are so, well, intersting I think is the wrong word, but I will use that for now...Now I am doing conceptual/character design work, and illustrating.
I was wondering, is it tough for a newby to get a start in NYC? Seems like that city is filled with artists or psuedo artists. Almost seems like it would be harder to crack into the career out there than out here. Is that true? ANd finally, have you ever considered moving to find work? Or is NYC your niche. Just a thought, as I know so many artists out here who want to up and move out there, for the art thing. I would imagine that with the advent of this the wonderful web, that you could get work, or get noticed just about anywhere...but then again what do I know, I am just a loley art person...

[Doc Holliday]

If your into Tv animation,Web/multimedia, advertising, merchandising,comics, or traditional illustration then NYC is the perfect place for you. Its kinda hard getting started but there are many smaller places like startups, small studios where you get better at your craft. On the other hand if Video games, SFX, and feature animation than stay in west coast. I personally think the competion out west is better, from what I've seen. All the really good artists move out west to work. Another thing I noticed is that in NYC, i could be wrong, the artists are more into style and less about the fundementals.
The gig I have now is pretty cool, but if it doesnt work out, Im sending portfolios out west and see what turns up.

PS I think drawing comics is the single hardest thing any person can do. You have to be a storyteller, draftsman, and animator. I salute you for doing it while also doing other work. geez....

[AliasMoze]

Fred,
Nice stuff. I agree, though, that they could be looser. Oh well, it's always a problem [staying loose]. At my level, I'm focusing on much quicker stuff (15-30 minutes max), so I can learn how to nail down the big values. But it's always a struggle to fight off the overwhelming urge to focus on detail too soon. It's like Mission Impossible -- get in, get it done, and get the hell out.

My favorite one up there is the one with the girl. I like things around water because of the indirect light.

I agree about Sargent. I'd love to see a show. His stuff makes me scratch my noggin.

Hope the house hunt is going ok. Can't wait to see the concept work from Myst 3.

If you don't mind, I have a couple specific questions regarding cubes and spheres and one question about highlights. Mind if I e-mail you?

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AliasMoze
:) :) :) :)
"That activates my hilarity unit."

[Joachim]

really nice pictures fred !

I'm sorry I don't have much bad comments, I I don't want to squeeze out something just for the sake of it.

just one thing, I never been a fan of the star trek spaceship, hehe. Not that you could do anything about that, but ever since the series, the ship has been looking more and more like a toy...but, I'll give you this. Your's looks bigger and better than the one in the series, even though it's 4 inces by 6 inches

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Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[StrangeFate]

they are really lovely, for that size and for being sketches, damn nothing to bitch about :/

...if i go for what i like less at all, i'd say the sky in the first pic ...those gray clouds.

The colors in the third pic really rock.

later

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http://www.planetquake.com/strangefate

[General Confusion]

quote:

---

I was wondering, is it tough for a newby to get a start in NYC? Seems like that city is filled with artists or psuedo artists. Almost seems
like it would be harder to crack into the career out there than out here. Is that true?

---

Fred to answer your question, I have worked in and around the NYC area for many years now, plus I have also had some dealings with Cail., (not paid mind you.) The one thing I could tell you is talent will probably be recognized anywhere, but in NY, I feel that the art is not so much what people look for anymore. I think people tend to look for the next big thing, probably in ways that Hollywood looks for it's next money maker. I think NY, uses art as it's Hollywood. If you go to Greenwich Village or now even more so, the Chelsea area, you could see what I mean. There are so many flakes that portray themselves as artists, I think the whole menaing of art in general has been lost to the demon, Mr. quick money. So as far as getting a start here, I think if you could make someone money, you're in!!! My answer may seem obvious, but I think it sort of sums up this area. Another point I could make is NY pays very wwweeelll, so there are some pros to the numerous cons. Does this help with your question???? How does Cali treat it's newbies into the field??? I'm curious because I plan to make my way out there. Possibly in the near future. And by the way thanks for the critiques on my jungle pic; I'll keep them in mind for the future.

later

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www.geocities.com/genconfusion/

[Fred Flick Stone]

Alias moze-go ahead an email me...That reminds me, I have three more pages still to review, yikes...
Yeah, I think to go any looser I will have to cut the time factor down even further, probably 20-30- minutes...This is how much time we(the instructors) give ourselves in the school I teach, to demonstrate portrait drawing, or figure drawing, or figure quick sketch. The quick sketch is 30 minutes of 2 minute poses or five minute poses, but no less we have to sum it all up in 30 or less. This is great practice for us, the instructors, but also stressful, we are practically performing for a class, and it needs to be an informative performance, so drawing and talking simultaneously. Such the nerve racker, but it really disciplines the eye quickly!!! I think I will cut down the time frame a bit next go around. Thanks for the suggestion, even if it wasn't one directly...

Samdragon, didn't even see your post go through while I was conversing with doc...very sorry...but since these were just sketches for sake of clarifying that I can paint, they will not be progressed to a finish. But if and when I work on that book, I will post the stuff for you guys to see first...and I have plenty more of these, but I want to get some digital art posted first. Going to take a little bit of time, just like the cube review thing. Wow, so many cubes. But it is so cool to see that people want to really learn...thanks again for the crits...
General Confusion-I kind of had a gut feeling that this was the way of the big apple. Out here, to tell you the truth, if you want to get anywhere in art, there is plenty of it at every level. Prepare yourself not to get paid what you are really worth for quite a while, but there is, like I said, more than enough to go around. For a while, everyone who bought a computer also claimed they could do "computer art", but they soon went away. There are still a few of them lingering, but not as many. People just don't realize that its not the computer...oh well. If you do make the move, let me know where you are heading, work wise that is, I might be able to help you find the right part of California that will best suite your needs. There is Nor Cal, Central Cal, SoCal, LA, SD, San Fran, and many smaller but booming towns coming up, taking over as the new technology hollywoods. But that is all for another time...Good luck with the work in NYC and keep posting those images of yours...very inspiring...

[General Confusion]

Fred
A little off topic on this post, It probably should go in random musings. I plan on coming out to Cali for vacation and I may stay initially around North Hollywood (friends there), but I plan to move around to get a feel of what it's like out there, and see if I want to actually live there. I do plan to head by way of San Diego, any recommendations for fun stuff to do out there. I have to keep the woman happy while we're there... . If you or anyone wants to reply, you can use my e-mail address.
I don't want to take away from your post with this frivilous stuff. So again I apologize for putting this here, but I figured you might be online now and I could catch you

My e-mail is: [email protected]

Thanks, btw, like your pics!!!!! Can't comment cause they're too small, I don't want to make any crits without seeing it bigger.

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www.geocities.com/genconfusion/

[AliasMoze]

Eetu,
I'll post the info. There were complaints about too many posts in the paint along threads, so I try to restrict my comments.

[shahar2k]

wow, heh I'm highly impresst freddy, I myself do half assed charecter artist (past tense, no recent work) but recently I've found a passion for storytelling in the written sense( my Other Earth post ). anyways, my question pertains to just one of these, mainly the enterprise and planet sketch, the light shining on the planet seems very bright (bit higher than pictures of earth at this range) and directed from behind,, while the light shining on the ship itself, well other than it's own lights, there seems to be no real focused lightsource, and what light there is, comes from the front of the image.

well, whatever, if I stay in art classes I might be able to reach that level, but by that time, everyone who I was aspiring to be like would allready be better, meh, life works, mostly.
again though, wonderfull pictures, if I had any other complaints I'd post them, I'm rude that way, and I really can't seem to find any perticular element to say that it made me like them more than any other. I ramble again, this message is almost worth a picture.

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"Avoid needless embarrassment. Practice the correct pronunciation of your deity's name in the privacy of your own room before chanting it in public. Flash cards are often helpful." --The Evil Cultist's Hand Guide

[daz199]

wow....
i can't say anything their just 2 good...
u r god....
man i gotta go to an art school
i'm only 15 :-) how old r u?

[Fred Flick Stone]

thank you all for the great crits...this is just what I needed. There is so much food for thought here, to really help me in what I need to look at image wise, as I create them.
On a side note, I have been reading some threads lately that seem a little disturbing. Too many antsy people who want fast progress, or that find this thread getting old and boring. I seem to find it quite the opposite. I am excited to see new faces constantly popping up. And as an instructor, I can't tell you how important it is to have patience with respect to art. It takes a lot of time to learn, and a lot of time to digest new information. I never had a web when I was a kid, nor did I have the luxury of finding an art minded community, where I can actually get pointers from real working pros. This place is a goldmine in terms of the wealth of info floating about on it...I was wondering, do any of you really feel this way also? Or do you guys really think this place is becoming an old folks home for artists? I am just curious...I want to stir up some reactions to see the real deal behind these scenes...