[Frost]

Here's an image I just started on a few hours ago. I was wondering if any of the local Gods could tell me what's wrong in it...

I always draw without reference, and all my images seem somewhat wrong. I've noticed lately that a lot of it has to do with my apparent lack of drawing skills, where the shapes don't come out right, which I end up hacking as I go along.

This image in particular was basically a lighting and shadow test, as Craig wrote about some week or two ago. It was something I never got around to doing properly, and by doing this pic, it's become a lot clearer in my mind.

So, comments please, rip it apart, tear it to shreads, and tell me what I need to improve so I can perhaps one day kick ass.

(sorry for the hugeness)



Danny 'frost' Oros

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited May 13, 2000).]

[Drorak]

That is really good Frost especially if you didn't use reference. I see nothing wrong with it, but I'm sure others will.

..ok if you really want to get picky about it, then maybe the middle girl's left hand is a bit too chubby. And her stomach seems to protrude out too much.

[Zor]

without reference? OHMY!

Ya copied my style tho.. from my post few days ago with all this nekkidness!! hehe

Frost brilliant definition. im speechless, and you are rapidly becoming one of my all time favorite painters..

Rock!

[DuKEZ]

wow its pretty bright.. hehe well yeah the center girl.. being in the center.. draws most of ones attention first.. looking at her.. her lower porportions do seem a bit awkwark P

but the lighting and shadows are great :P

[assa]

Dan : I see you finally found your own posse
of private strippers haha.. Are you playing
peeping tom?

Good work mate!

assa
-----
prof. artist/designer

[Frost]

Thank you all for the nice comments. But I'm sure there are some problems that I'm not necessarily seeing in this pic.

Assa: No such luck I'm afraid.

[Mozeman]

While paintings of naked chicks certainly make up for a lot in compositional errors, I must profess that other than the three ladies, this isn't a very interesting painting. I would try to think about telling a story with your pic.

On a technical level, a little reference would do some good here. It LOOKS like something you've done from your imagination in a couple of ways - the faces are a little generic and the bodies are all the same.

Plus, you left out the pupils. Reference would have helped there <<grin>>

The girl on the left - her shoulder isn't quite working. The muscle structure is lacking, it looks like her arm is growing out of her shoulder.

The girl in the middle - the shadow on her left collar bone is a little deep and the shadow from her head seems a little off. Her right hand is a little doughy - but then I've never been good at hands, so I understand the difficulty there.

The girl on the right - looks okay except that the lines around her pubes look a little too defined.

All that aside, it's a nice painting and a good start.

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Mozeman
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[email protected]
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"I like it rough..."

[Frost]

Hey Mozeman.

Thanks for the input.

I do agree that the faces are somewhat generic, although there is a play on 'fat'
and some traits, I'll try to remedy that. The body resemblances, well, what do you suggest? Perhaps some image background info is in order --

It's meant to be a fantasy-ish image, the women being some evil tempting creatures (corny, yes, I know), thus the simular rounded features that were meant to portrait some kind of beauty and sexual appeal (also why they don't have iris -- I think offering a better clue as to their evil). The background was of little interest to me, and will probably be some kind of abstract color/cloud type.

Back to their bodies, the mid is more flat chested and slightly thinner, the right-most has a much heavier chest and is fattier (also shows in her face - lips, cheeks), the left one more pointy and tight. I guess I should play on the thighs a bit...

The muscle structure on the left girl's arms are rather sketchy I must admit, and will have to stop and think a bit about it. Also the lighting at that angle is causing me problems -- thinking is required (well, at least for me). Which arm is growing out of her shoulder? The shoulder structure needs work on her left side.

In the future, I'll try not to draw naked women so people don't get the impression I'm trying to hide compositional errors behind their distraction. =) I've never been good at image composition, as I have never studied art -- I try though, although this is quite plain indeed.

Danny 'frost' Oros

[Cos]

Hey Frost, I think it's coming along really well. I love your style of painting, and great lighting too. Altho The green and orange colours are kinda taking away from the evil sirens feel of it, (don't forget it isn't finished yet cos).

The girl's bodies do look kinda too long and stretched, probably working from reference would help a lot. I never use reference or studied art either so I have trouble with anatomy aswell, probably doing a series of pieces working from reference would help
a lot with it.

An excellent start Frost, can't wait to see it once it's completed.

[micke]

Frost, great work as always!
Nice colours and i love the shadows.
I noticed the right arm on the girl in the middle it looks the outer shape of it is a bit too round. Another thing is the balance
between straight lines and round lines.
I think theres more going on in the outer shapes wich you left out. Hmmm it's kind of hard to explain what i mean, my english is so bad. I also noticed the fingers on the hand of the same arm. It does'nt seem to have the correct length.

Danny you have a exellent start and i can't
wait to see the finnished picture.

------------------
-Mikael Noguchi-

http://www.katode.org/noguchi/

[psi burn]

very good image in terms of anatomy!

theres a tiny few little things i picked up after examining your picture...thoroughly :x

ok the left breast on the woman in the middle (the one covered by her hand) is a tad shorter then the one on the right.

the left arm of the the shy-looking-woman-on-the-left's is too close to her body, her shoulder needs some more volume.

and the last part is your shadows are a bit off, in that there doesnt seem to be any single identifiable light source. unless you're going numerous sources of light, it makes more sense, but otherwise you'll need to fix it. for example, according to the woman on the right, the source of light is to the far mid/left, but for the woman in the middle it seems as if its more to the top/middle, and the woman on the left seems to have light coming from above her (notice the shadow on the base of her head and beneath the breasts).

if you want to go back and fix these minor things you can, but the art is definately a winner, especially if you drew it from your head (or so ive come to understand?)

[Mozeman]

Hey Frost;

I worked up a rough of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I tried making the poses a little more dynamic, with more individual personality (did I succeed? - the chick on the right is weak in terms of the pose).

Forgive the crudity, I didn't have any reference either (in a hurry) - but it's just an idea.



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Mozeman
************************
[email protected]
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"I like it rough..."

[Joachim]

Hey Frost,

Great picture, as usual. . .I'm looking forward to see it finished
As said earlier, I'm very impressed with your shadowing.

Since you asked for a few comments as well ...here goes:
This is only anatomical comments though, sorry. Would be cool if you managed to make the stumach of the girs a bit more "curvy" hmm, don't know how to exactly explain it, lack of english skills Especially around the navle and down to the flower (or vagina ) Could be nice if you juiced up the shapes a bit. Also, just minor, but the hand on the closest girl's chest is a bit chubby.

But as said, it looks very good !!



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Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[Frost]

Cos - Thanks! Too bad 3dp is down... kinda miss your website... =( As for reference, I know I probably should, and that it would probably help me a lot... but I'm such a stubborn fool. =)

Micke - Thank you. And thanks for the comments, I'll check those outlines and forms. I know for a fact that the elbow is pretty odd looking, the bone should show itself more pointy, and the forearm should have more meat on the inside, less at the elbow level. If you want to explain to me what you mean about the outer shapes, you can quickly sketch over the image to explain your thoughts, it would be great. =))

psi burn - You're right about the light source not being the same for all the girls. That is definitely a screw up on my part, as I surely lost focus -- I found a quick shortcut for making the shadows on the 2 girls at the extremeties, and I did not "rethink" the light location on the right (shy) chick. I'll make her shoulders lower as well, cause it really seems screwed at the moment. Thanks!

Mozeman - Thanks for explaining your view, and your example was quite on the money. =) I see that my pic is not as dynamic as your sketch, and I thank you for pointing that out. I hope I don't offend you by making a choice here, but I think I'll stick with my chicks for this one, as I truly think it comes out as I wanted (minus a few technical and anatomical glitches) - they should look innocent, quiet and serene -- tempting their prey ; not overly seductive as on a sexual overdrive. That is what I was aiming at for the essence of this pic. I'll probably add a few dead men or such on the ground to give a better feeling of what the represent. Thanks for the help... if you have anything to suggest for the anatomy and such, please do so. =)

Joachim - Thanks, but I can't help but feel the pic feels flat nonetheless. =) The tummy parts, I guess I'm not as knowledgeable in female anatomy as I'd like I suppose ( ) but I think you mean that the lower body between the navel and the pubic area should have a slight inner dip, causing a small bulging tummy at the belt line? If not, you can also sketch some of your ideas, I'd be happy to have them! =)

[Kyri]

Hi Frost,

The pics going really great! I think you've done a very good job lighting it...It looks
very atmospheric. If I was to say anything
I reckon maybe add a bit more definition to the bodies....the woman on the right, which is my favourite by the way you could make her ribs show a bit, I think they would if her arms were upstretched like that, and her shoulder could be a bit more defined...is her belly button pierced by the way, nice touch ;P The woman in the middle, the arm holding the heart needs more shape, The elbow looks kinda round. The light source I think is fine and definetly don't make them dynamic, I like the subtlety of the poses...I don't like that Marvel superhero stuff. Although that was a great sketch by Mozeman. All in all just continue as you are, youre doing a great job. Can't wait to see it finished.

[Frost]

Thanks a lot Kyri, I really appreciate that, and also that you see where I was going with this pic. =)

Have you any new images yourself? =)

[HumanClay]

Not to be rude or whatever, but I don't think you get enough respect Frost. Or maybe that it's you just don't give yourself enough credit. In any case, your work is really superb. I rate you as one of the top ten artists on this board.

I love your painterly, traditional style, and your subject matter is always so original and thought-provoking. In addition, you improve enormously with each pic I see from you. I can't wait for the next one

Keep it up man!

HumanClay

[Cos]

Yeah I agree, Frost you definetely are one of the coolest artists here man =) The fact u miss me n bros site is a damn honour. Yea, very messed up about 3dp, hope they get back on their feet soon. will go back to our old addy till then. Thanks man!

[Kyri]

Heya Frost,
I've got a few new pics in developement, if I
can just get round to finishing the buggers Latest is a kinda futuristic steroid induced warrior gal, not naked tho heh,heh ;P and a vampiryc seductress, that I'm thinking of posting here on a thread, don't expect much tho it's a rush job.

[derPunkt]

Woohoo, kickass, Frost (as always).
They all pointed out those anatomy errors, so, no need that I go into that =). I REALLY like the colour choice.

HumanClay - he has always been so hard on himself, and we tried to explain him that he is a KICKASS artist, but I guess he's just too stubburn <----- major sp. error, I am too lazy to check it in dictionary.

Danny, you make more of these, pronto =)
dP

[Frost]

<g>
Thanks a lot guys! (!!!)
=]

[Fred Flick Stone]

Frost. Not bad for out of your head. I was going to do a line drawing, but Mozeman did a great one to explain the technical issues of form. You have to "draw through" the form. If an arm passes over the form, as in the front girl, her right arm looks glued into a flesh mass, and the back drawn around the arm to accomidate for the space. In your prelim drawing, the wire frame is key. All artists use it. this is how drawing out of their head ollks that much more realistic. They have a frame work which is based on reality to hang an image on. One thing about learning the basics and having imagination, the more basics you have intuitively under youre belt, the easier and more clarified your imaginative work will be. Look at Frazetta, need I say more...
Foreshortening is a hard thing to pull off convincingly without understanding the figure, and form in 3 dimensional space. I will do a tutorial here, maybe after the head tutorial on drawing limbs in perspective. There are a few things that can be done without too much anatomical understanding, that will at least get the image looking like it should.
The composition should also be worked out more thoroughly before you launch into the finished peice. You have dead space underneath the imae that still has yet to be determined what will go their, and the space between the ladies could be worked out so the composition ties together a little better, but these are things, over time, and possibly the right classes or looking at the right artists will help you find these things out. Or coming to chat rooms like this.
Overall, it is not bad. Afterall, you did make this up from your head. But more understanding of what you are doing will help all the more in getting top notch imagery.
I must say this with respect to Spooge, learning as much as you can about the basics will allow you to take many roads to a final conclusion. It all depends upon what you like personally. Once the basics are grasped, you can paint loose, tight, uptight, whatever. Your skill level and proficiency at what you do will allow for that freedom. So when I show a tutorial, they are going to look very tight. It is how I instruct in class. Explaining things with losseness in mind tends to be interperreted incorrectly by people who just don't know yet...And clarity helps everyone grasp the concept, one way or another...

[Joachim]

Hey Frost, thanks for cleaning up my english, hehe..-"a slightly inner dip on the navle area".
I'm not the right one to show directions, as I'm not a "painting god". But, what I ment was to juice up the shapes a bit. More in and out, both on the shading areas and the outline edges...like michelangelo was so good at

I did some quick brushing strokes on top of yours, just to try to illustrate what I so clumpsy tried to explain...hope it makes a bit more sense than my words

PS! I'm really impressed with your attitude for input and critiscm. I hope you will tear my pictures apart from now on





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Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[kos.mandis]

Ouch! Must have hit a spot there Cos

Greek students do it for me here in Luton

[sfr]

Frost, you've got so many great comments already, I don't have any useful critique to give (I couldn't help you with anatomy anyway) so I'll just say I like it a lot so far!

Sweet tones you've got on the girls... And I'd have to agree that although Mozeman's sketch looks very good, I like your poses better because they're more calm and somehow seem to communicate better. What are you going to do in the background? There's a muddy shade of green there now, if I were painting it I might try something a bit more blue and less saturated...

Well, keep it up, I'll be looking forward to the finished piece!

Saffron / Sunflower

[Frost]

Fred - Thanks for the reply! I often find myself torn between realism/technical that has 'accidental' or 'natural' poses, versus the "artistically" correct fake pose that accomodates the image... I don't know if you understand what I'm saying here. It's a real problem of mine, especially since I am not professionally trained or knowledgeable in either (I suppose(?!)). (Btw, I spend 8 hours a day working on 3D as a full time 2d/3d artist, and have been modeling for over 5 years, I therefore have a pretty good understanding of 3D and volume). Anyway, I am taking into account what all of you are saying, but it can only sink in at a certain pace. Next time, I'll draw a pic from scratch with all your help at every step as a guide through. If you could rapidly sketch out what you meant about the "arm passing over the form", it would be great to have a visual reference for what's right and wrong (in my case I suppose). Thanks.

Joachim - Nice overdraw! -- illustrates the point quite well! I'll try adding more 'shape' to it while still maintaining the young, thin and elastic skin look. Looking at it, I also realized that my lighting was perhaps a little TOO bright and flooded, where the shadows come in hard and the contrast is very 'in your face' -- not subtle at all nor refined as such. About my attitude; I must admit I find it a little difficult to swallow my pride and to be put back at a beginner level (it seems), but it's all for the best in the end. I really want to be able to do great stuff, and this is the best option I have, no matter how painful. =] (*gulp*)

Cos - Brushes... I just use the default photoshop brushes; on this pic, I just use the 4th/5th smallest round and harder-edged brush in the top row and use pressure sensitivity to get the tones down, at least for bigger surfaces -- smaller areas for refinement I use the same process but with a smaller brush size, nothing special at all (being an ex- "pixel" artist helps with this I guess). I do however do a lot over painting over areas... for instance, I'll fill in the girl area with a light color, then make the form of the girl by repainting the background over it to define the edge -- if I were to be painting on a canvas, I suppose this method would result in a painting 14 inches thick and weighing 20bls. =)

Saffron - Thanks! I don't know about the background really.. I had no specific thought about it, as the main objective of this painting was basically a lighting/shadow exercise (thus the name : lighting_test.jpg)=)... but it might as well be more, as it coincidentally turned out...

[PaK-RaT]

concerning the middle girl, her right clavicle (the collar bone) is in harsh shadow. after thinking about your lighting setup, i dont think the shadow u cast there should be so dark...i'd reconsider that part.

a neat trick to try would be to flip the Vertical orientation of the painting, so everything that was once facing right is now left...gives u a fresh persopective, i THINK that's a tip i picked up from Craig's GameArt.Com tutorial...

btw everyone, since 3dpalette.com is down, my email is outta order, email me at [email protected]

[kos.mandis]

Hey Frost great stuff...

Cos-Couldn't it be that you have short women in UK?

[Cos]

Re Kos, I dunno what kinda women u gettin in Luton, (If you gettin any at all! haha!! jk man It's all nanoukia down here!!

Hey Frost, sudden brain wave man, *cos has a brain shock horror, read all about* hehe, I was wondering what kinda brushes u use, like if u use any textured/custom brushes??

[Frost]

Thanks for the reminder on the lighting, I'll make sure I fix that. The HORIZONTAL flip is also something I have done during the drawing phase of this one, and also something I have been doing since the age of 15, but thanks for the input! I might email you for further questions. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited May 16, 2000).]