[Reakshun]

Suppose to be Ali Shaheed Muhammed http://alishaheed.comfrom A Tribe Called Quest...but,

For the past 10 weeks I've been struggling with acrylic. Finally, I was like, "maybe acrylic just isn't for me." So, I tried this shit that everybody seems to be afraid of and this is what I came up with for my first try at a full blown painting from imagination using the medium.




I didn't quite get the likeness I was looking for and the composition could have been ALOT better. No excuses there. A few drawing and saturation issues with a little more time could have been addressed as well. Actually, might still address 'em. Anyway, it's at least presentable. Next time, I promise, I'LL KILL IT.

Thoughts?

btw,
I was forced to the this piece by Justin Bua. If you don't know about him www.justinbua.com. [/url]

[Mega Muffin]

It's pretty cool. As I was scrolling down I was like, ahh, neat, but when I got to the body I was like wtf?? The neck is not right I think. It's too thick for the body and looks like you just stuck it on there. Reminds me of a tree trunk. Like it's not thick enough at the top and too thick at teh bottom. I'm not sure how you could have done it, but that is my biggest concern. The head is definately the best part. I like the texture of it, though the rest of teh textures seem kind of not there. Now, I know I'm a big newbie and I don't know what gouache is so maybe my comments are all wrong. IDK.

[watmough]

i like how u handled the gouache here,Reakshun,it seems kind of oil-paintish to me,i tend to use it like watercolour(done too many watercolours i guess) and i am never happy with the results.this technique you've used seems more substantial,plus you have the ability to pick up and re-work,which you dont have with acrylics.
by the way,if u dont mind me asking....what were u struggling with in regards to acrylics? i use them alot and dont have a problem with them,(i know lots of people do,though).i think u need to accept the fact that acrylics dry quickly and use that to your advantage...
oh,super nice skin tones,too!!

[Affected]

I also wonder what it was you didn't like about acrylics if you decided to go for gouaches after that. Can't have been that they dry too fast, gouaches aren't any "better" as far as I can tell. (have we had this discussion before, I'm getting derious d�j� vu here...)

Anyway, looks very good. I envy you for having gouaches that apparently actually cover stuff. What kind did you use?

[Reakshun]

Mega: I agree with the neck. I did kind of force the situation there. I tried to do this cartoony thing and just didn't fully realize the "drawing" aspect of it. Richard Schmid says the biggest problem in painting is "the drawing". The angle I chose didn't help either.

I did try to make the head the strongest because that was the focus. You're comments are not wrong at all. Really...what you talked about are just drawing issues that should have been addressed before and DURING the painting. Thanx for chekkin me out.

Wat: Thanks, man. Here's my problem with acrylic: I wanna use it like oil paint. I just have this thing where I wanna get really thick with acrylic for some strange reason. Knowing that it dries quickly makes me just wanna keep going over. And if you look at my value study of this painting...it is SOOOOO thick. I don't understand acrylics application for whatever reason.
Maybe I'll go back to it and see what happens.

Now, with gouache, it seems that I "respected" the medium more. Knowing that gouache dries even faster than acrylic and also knowing that you "can't" go impasto or your painting will crack made me respect it more. Like, "okay, you better make sure you get this shit right." If you felt my board, this thing is soooooo flat. And the way this stuff scans is crazy nice! My piece isn't the greatest, but I luuuuuuv the colors. I've never had a traditional piece look this clean (well...I don't really do traditional work..hehe, but) I definitely wanna try different ways to work with it and if you have suggestions, tips, and what not...by all means...

In regards to it looking like oil...thanks man. If it's any help to anybody I used a very systematic technique for this piece, particularly the face.

After a WACK ASS full size value study in acrylic, I K.I.S.S. and did a color study in gouache about 4 inches tall and 4 inches wide. From that I matched those colors again in gouahce and made about 12 small jars. For the face in particular I made three shades of skin...LIGHT, HALFTONE, SHADOW ( I should have done that for the hole piece...for the other parts, I only did 2 tones, half and shadow and winged it on highlights)

So when I blocked in my piece I use the the halftones every where flat so values are correct immediately. Then, put the other two...then went back in and made subtle variations with a regular palette of colors mixed with my pre-mixed one.

Affected: If it is deja vu then you prolly have a nice gouache painting in your future
Gouache definitely dries quicker than acrylic. Like I said, I think it was knowing that if I get too thick...it's gonna crack.
I used Winsor & Newton Goauche. Kinda expensive...but, not anymore than oil paint really. Shit, I remember buying a $50 tube of Old Holland something or rather Cad Orange. That shit is like sitting inna glass class right now with a little hammer next to like, "PAINT WITH IN CASE OF EMERGENCY". LOL!

Prolly the biggest disadvantage to using this stuff is I probably won't be able to make a BIG ASS painting with it. Other than that I think I'm gonna be experimenting with this shit until my current stock of tubes runs out.

Peace.

[skullmonkeys]

Nice!
Yes the neck bothers you a bit. Since this work is stylized you could have fixed it by shortening it rather than add more definition. I think the latter would take away the focus somewhat.

I have a question, when you use gouache, how do you cope with the lifting off of the pigments as you apply your brushstrokes?

[Francis]

That's great man, way better than my attempts with acrylic OR gouache.
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[Reakshun]

Skull: thanx! I'm not sure I understand your question. But, if your talking about application while the painting is wet...it really wasn't an issue for me. I actually applied my paint wet into wet. I was able to work this quickly in this method because I had pre-mixed my palette of lights, mids, and darks.

If your talking about when you dip into piles of paint and try to mix...OH...I KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT. hehe. You gotta keep your brush clean when dipping into paint to mix it up. Keep 2 cups of water. One just to keep the brush wet ... the other to clean it off. Blot that shit on a towel and keep it moving. Hope that helps.

Francis: Thanx, man. This stuff is really helping the digital already. I wanna try and do a gouache piece at least once a week. Even if it's a small study.

[skullmonkeys]

I meant, when you apply wet into wet, doesn't the different colors blend together as you apply the brushstroke on top of wet paint?

[watmough]

awesome reply,Reakshun,i wish i could be that organized.
skullmonkeys,thats exactly the problem i have with gouache!
with watercolour,thats actually not a bad thing at all,with gouache.....

[Godwin]

there are actually mediums which you can add to acrylic paints so that you can work them like oils (modelling paste, this paste that paste, retarder, so on and so forth, seen a demonstration before, pretty cool for getting texture on your canvas, you can apply it as a base coat, or even mix it with the paint itself, there's also translucent paints and gels and whatever), of course they'd still dry faster, but it's better than waiting forever for something to dry

I haven't actually tried gouache before, but I've got a friend who's totally mad about it... I think it dries pretty fast anyway?
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[Reakshun]

Skull: "Blending" is exactly what you want it to do. If you mix lights, mids, and darks....and you apply it wet into wet...it makes a nicer transition...at least what I've seen. I used Loomis's method of making your mid tone more saturated. Not just taking your dark and mixing with your light.

Wat: thanks man. I actually forgot to give credit to SYD MEAD for the method. His video series for Gnomon is the resource. Check that out when you getta minute...and some $$.

Godwin: Yeah...all that medium stuff is cool...I can't wait to put it in acrylic. Especially that sand stuff.

I like the fact gouache dries quick. I wouldn't wanna add anything to it to slow it down or speed it up.

[skullmonkeys]

By Syd Mead's dvds you mean the 4th gouache rendering one?
What is that dvd like? Do you learn a lot out of it or is it more like a painting demo?

So by your method, when you go from mid to light, you would mix light a little lighter than it's supposed to be and let it blend with the paint underneath to get the actual tone? That would require a very good knowledge in mixing colors.
Is that what painting opaque is like?
But I guess if you wanted to create a higher contrast, you'd wait for the painting to dry and go over it with a thick mixture?

Acrylics are pretty cool. But I really like the 'feeling' of the gouache brushes down on paper. That's why I want to learn it.

watmough: If you have that problem you might want to try out "Holbein Acryla Gouache" a guy called Erik Tiemens[sp?] who is a plein air artist and an ILM matte painter uses it like a master on his landscape paintings. Supposedely the acrylic characteristics allow you to brush over your colors without and lifting off of the pigments underneath. Im trying to find it locally atm. Chromacolor animation acrylics which dries matte is pretty good too but it doesn't have that gouache like feeling.

[Reakshun]

Maybe we should start a gouache thread sometime soon....help its resurgence.

Skull:
Yeah...the 3rd and the 4th I think. "Creating The Color Preliminary" and "Final Gouache Rendering". I bought them all actually cuz I wanted to see truly how MEAD gets down.
It's definitely NOT JUST A PAINTING DEMO. This guy is a fountain of knowledge. He elaborates on his experience in illustration and with the medium, things to look out for like the pros and cons of its drying time, wet-board preparation and why, drawing transfer with self-made transfer paper as opposed to commercially produced.
He talks about his palette (12 colors), disposable cardboard palettes, using reference correctly, and just simply the ART OF PICTURE-MAKING, or MAKING A FAKE PHOTOGRAPH. His words.

His philosophy makes total sense. He's big on value and maintaining a "value budget." That's the biggest thing I got from the video. And to reinforce that, I started working at Disney a month ago as a digital colorist. And I've been talking to the BG painters up here. And they totally stress "value, value, value". It makes you just express yourself freely and not worry about color, becuz it doesn't matter just as long as the value's right.
But, the main thing is to stress a "full" level of contrast. 0-9, 0-10 value scale.

Shadow is hottest nearest the light, i.e. the core and gradates into cool. That's why the mid tone is a little more saturated. It makes the contrast "pop" more.

Now as for the method, when I go from mid to light:

What I learned was your light should be lighter than it looks or you think. And your dark should be darker than you think or it appears.
My color knowledge is at an intermediate level right now. I know the Munsell wheel. I know complements, analagous schemes, what warms and what cools, so I guess that does help.
The key is making the colors "dance" and give 'em a "rhythm" is what Justin Bua taught me.

In the application process, I didnt' let the paint blend with what was underneath becuz it was truly wet-into-wet. I like to keep 2 brushes up while working. One for a dark, One for a light or mid. That helps you work quicker. I didn't learn that from the video. I got that from painting workshops.

Painting with higher contrast has taken me a long ass time to finally somewhat understand. But, now, I kinda getting the hang of it. IMO, painting in higher contrast is established early in a painting or drawing even, by finding your lightest light, and your "second" to darkest value next. Then, find the darkest. Then, the second to lightest. Then, last the middle.

But, there's a few school's of thought on that. Some people like the middle. And work they're way out. I think that's more advanced tho. Cuz when you're a beginner, you like to work in the middle. And when you stretch out, you stretch too much or too little, then you have to NOODLE your way back in or out. Some people go straight for the darkest then, the lightest. But, the point is all things are established in the beginning. Great starts make great finishes. Bad starts can "only" end in bad results.

That "feeling" of gouache on the board is exactly what I love about it. I like the fact that my board is flat. And, as MEAD puts it, "optically flat." That's why it scans so well. Some of the BG painters around here have shown me their gouache stuff. It's dope.

Well...I just spilled what little beans I know. Post some gouaches up in here. It'd be cool!!

[watmough]

Reakshun,i am LOVING your posts,so great to here someone elses struggle,i gotta tell ya,you are OK in my book.
i like to work from the middle values out,i read it a long time ago about Sargent,just seems to work for me.
that being said,sometimes i like to mark my lightest AND darkest immediately and find the middle from there.
its cool you can get gouache to work for you like that,i am envious,i think i am just too spontaneous and impatient,i love the idea of it,i just havent been able to make it work.
lately,i use acrylic like watercolour,with pastel on top for the stuff i cant get effectively with the acrylic.
again,thanks Reakshun..

[skullmonkeys]

Yeah GREAT post. Thanks for the reply!
There's a real lack of gouache learning resources out there compared to watercolor or oils. It's great to have this kind of posts going on. Especially someone from Disney color department.
The BG artists in disney use acrylics or gouache?

So if I was going to buy a dvd from the Mead collection which will teach me about specifics of gouache, which one is best? 3rd or 4th dvd?

I have problem mixing colors opaquely. I've tried acrylics but in a transparent manner because I coulden't control the values. [always turns out to be too grey looking] When want your color to be at a specific value, do you mix a mixture of white AND black or premixed grey [eg, payne's grey] or do you not use black at all but balance the color out with another and lighten it with white and darken with browns? Im guessing the third option is correct as many painters don't use black at all.

oh and my 'transparent' acrylics hehe
http://forums.sijun.com/viewtopic.php?t=38884

wat: Yes, I think we are having same issues here. ^^

[watmough]

skullmonkeys,in my experience i use blue for my shadows.either ultramarine with maybe a bit of umber,or prussian blue.i tend to muddy-up ALL my colours,though, to control saturation.i do use black sometimes,but i do tend to use it in place of blue(no blue at all in painting,really) and it does tend to grey everything with opaque media.my solution then is to use oil paint,cause you can really just lay different colours on top,or use your canvas like a palette and mix new colours in.

[skullmonkeys]

I see. Oil is something I definetly want to get into, but not right now as I'm learning with 2 medium already [gouache, acrylics]

By the way, anyone seen concept paintings in LOTR done by Paul Lasaine? They are amazing. He was the background supervisor for Prince of Egypt. Love his stuff. All done in opaque manner. My guess is that it's acrylics.

[buzzz3d]

Great thread, and great reading.
I agree it's hard to find learning info for gouache, so all the help is welcome.

On Conceptart.org Ron Lemen has some tips in his sketchbook
and here is a step by step from MainLoop.

I did my first gouache a few weeks ago , hope to do more and hopefully better soon.

[Reakshun]

Sup everybody. Had to get away for the weekend. Last week kicked my ass. Anyway...

wat: no doubt, man. But, I was always wondering how you were getting that effect in your pieces. Thanks for spilling the beans on dat. There's this guy named Charles Hu at this place where I goto painting workshop that does that too. Check out www.laafigart.com and peep his and other dudes' shit too.

The middle is fine to start. It's kinda like cartoons when you think about it. Find a local color. Add a shadow. Add highlights. Add accents. But, I did notice Donato called his final drawings and studies, "cartoons".

I by no means have any control of this shit. but I will say that using that system Syd Mead spoke of helped tremendously. I'm like you. I'm spontaneous my damnself. But, this time, I was like "what would it be like if you just slowed your impatient ass down and tried an actual process." And this is what happened.

Skull: the BG artists at Disney use Cel Vinyl paint. Brand doesn't matter but some to consider are Cartoon Color, Bren Tone, Chroma Colour, and Golden Color. "Lilo and Stitch" used completely traditional watercolors. Windsor and Newton gouache seems to be the favorite gouache. The only people that use acrylic, if they're not on the computer, which is rare these days, are the Visual Development Artists.

I don't work for Gnomon, but, I would buy the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. But, really...the 4th'll do fine. Check your thread. I left something there.

In mixing colors to obtain values, it depends. Watmough is right in his approach. Just try to consider saturation and color temperature (warm/cool) as well, even with a darker shade. With acrylic, I was having ALOT of saturation issues, mostly due to my using ultramarine. Then, I started using Cerulean instead. Ultramarine is closer to red-purple on the chroma scale, making it "the warmer" of the two blues. Umber definitely helps saturation, at least what I've seen, but, I don't know how to completely control it....that's when shit get's muddy and loses "true" color.

Black is a easy way to get your values dark. But, the key, imo, is to make black a minority partner in shading your values. Same with white for tinting.

Buzz: yeah, I saw those a while back. FredFlick definitely is another wellspring and the fact that he's using it translucently as well as opaquely is a testament to that.

Your piece looks translucent too. I need to try that side of gouache so I can understand how flexible the medium really is. Then, of course, we all just need to get more "paint mileage" in general.

[Godwin]

I was looking through Ron Lemen's pics, and came across this...

http://www.rev-art.com/lemenimages/stewpingoauche.jpg

kinda interesting
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