[Matthew]

Weekly Drawing - Week 16

The rules of weekly drawing:

*all mediums accepted
*concepts and speed sketches are allowed
*everyone is allowed to post how many times they want
*Weekly Drawing will only last for a week after which there will be a new topic

I will start a discussion thread over in the digital art discussion too so feel free to give me some pointers about this thread there and also, maybe we can come up with topics in there if you guys have any special ideas.

This weeks topic is - Sargent Copy

This weeks topic is to make a copy of one of Sargents works, it doesn�t have to be a duplicate but rather an observation of a Sargent picture.

John Singer Sargent
American Painter
1856-1925



"John Singer Sargent was an American painter by birth-right. He loved his country yet he spent most of his life in Europe. He was the most celebrated portraitist of his time but left it at the very height of his fame to devote full time to landscape painting, water colors and public art."

Here�s some great links I found, the first two contains big pictures.

http://www.jssgallery.org/index.htm

http://www.abcgallery.com/S/sargent/sargent.html

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/result.asp?collection=entire&Artist=John+Singer+Sargent&Title=&Country=&Date1=&Era1=AD&Date2=&Era2=AD&Keyword=&image.x=11&image.y=5

Matthew

[Matthew]

Wekkly Drawing is opened up again.

A big thank you to Freddio and fae who liked the idea and wanted this weekly activity to continue, thanks again guys.
Thanks to all you other guys who also has given me feedback regarding this thread.

Here�s my picture, Carolus Duran (originally painted by Sargent)


thanks again Freddio and fae.
Matthew

[StylesDavis]

hmm, why should we all do a sargent-copy? i mean, spooge said once, "the world is filling up pretty rapidly with fake-sargent-imitations" or something like that, and i think he said some true words. sargent here, sargent there; there are so many other great masters to learn from, so why always rip off sargent? in some time sijun-forums can be called (or must be called) "sargent forums" if we don't stop that...

i would prefer a topic called "master copy" or similar...
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known as "ChrisNix" elsewhere.

[Matthew]

This was just an idea for a weekly activity and I liked the idea and don�t see anything wrong with Sargent. A copy can be a great learning source and the idea here isn�t really to copy the picture to make a duplicate but rather to make observations of it and make a picture out of that.

here�s one I made the day before yesterday, click the link to view big.
http://www.lensflares.net/SpeedPaintings/sketchy33.jpg


hope that answers your question
Matthew

[ax--hv]

Trying to understand how masters interpret what they see is a good chance to move from dead point in progress. Good idea, Matthew. But probably would be better if not only paint but discuss suggestions also.
The most important for me is Sargent`s ability to paint bright sunlighted scenes using water colors. Absolutely exceptional use of opposite colours to achieve a necessary saturation. That`s the thing to learn! :)
Matthew, i didn`t find any WC on that pages, so here`s the link to gallery at www.artrenewal.org
btw, i agree with StylesDavis, why not widen the range of artists?..

[Matthew]

all feedback goes in the discussion thread so now I would like to see some pictures here guys.
thx for the link ax--hv, the last link I posted contains wc work from sargent amongst those 400 pictures.

Sargent is this weeks topic so no wider range will be dealt with this week, maybe for a later weekly drawing activity.

Quick scribble to answer with.


Matthew

[character]

hey all. here's my shot of madame X. i tried to emulate his painting as much as possible but i'm really bad with matching colors so i layered it and had some fun with it. i like this alot better than where it was going.

[ax--hv]

Sorry, Matthew
and not to brake the rule...:

[fae]

from
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/view1.asp?dep=2&full=1&item=50%2E130%2E49

it's kinda off etc... but i just wanted to do a quick one to be part of this.
thanks, matthew - your art and stuff is very encouraging.

well... i'm still in the process of trying to figure this all out...
how do you guys keep the img so sharp etc? i always have issues with that, but am always so impressed by all the sharp-looking speeds.
any suggestions on anything would be nice... seeing i have such a long way to go...
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~a shadow, a moment, a memory-- a monument, a legend, a legacy~

[Sheff]

I started this copy a while ago but I lost interest in finishing it. I was working from the Ratcliff book and I was getting a headache from doing it. I'm not sure if I should finish it. The whole purpose was to learn something, but doing a reproduction of a reproduction or a reproduction is a pain. I can trust the values more than I can trust the colors and I don't trust the colors as I have another Sargent book where this same painting is more yellow. On top of that I have never seen the original. A buddy of mine who has seen the original said that it looked effortless. I consider my friend a better painter than me so I take his opinion seriously. I think he was holding back on telling me how crappy mine was.

And working from a small reproduction of the whole painting, I later looked at the detail of the face on the other page and I realized my brush strokes and chroma were way off.

However, I don't know if I need to finish it more so to just take it to a finish or if I've gotten all I'm going to get out of it at this point. I have been feeling stagnant lately in terms of skills and improving, and I'm unsure of how to get out of my rut.

There are enough bad sargent copies out there. I really don't want to add to the pile. I based it on actual size and I don't know if I should finish it or just finish it digitally.

I like sargent, but I also like a lot of other artists too. I might paint over this canvas and try doing something that's more fun and more 'me' .
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Sheff
www.sheff.com

[Angel_of_Bacon]

adding to the pile:

based off [url=http://www.jssgallery.org/Paintings/Albert_de_Belleroche(half).jpg]this[/url]
structure, colors, composition, dimensions...EVERYTHING is wrong!

[math]

angel..the eyes and nose for example are bit too big...too 'stretched'. i dont think its that bad what uve done!
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quit pro quo

[Matthew]

ok maybe that was rude what I said earlier, what I meant was that discussion about topic and choice of artist and such goes in the weekly discussion thread in the digital art discussion.
Otherwise discussion about this artist and tecniques and why he did and what he did and how he did it goes in here and I would be really interested in your opinions about all that.
Also comments to pictures posted in here are very much welcome and perhaps I should have been more clearly about this above, sorry about that.

ax--hv, I�m sorry there for the intervention about pics, I am very eager to hear more about your thoughts and discoverys regarding Sargents tecniques and such. I can tell u are putting a lot of thought into this and I have found your work very interesting ever since u started to post here.

Sheff, I think u are on the way with your painting there, looks very good to me. Maybe u could ask your friend what u can do to improve this painting and what he would do if he was copying the same picture. thx for the wip shots there.

fae, thank you. if you want crisp edges u can zoom in and refine the edges with a hard brush but this have to be careful for if applied all around an object it looks very flat, so u have to weight this very carefully. If u look closely on the mules on sargents pic u can see that he has used dark against bright and bright against dark to get those sharper edges and what makes an object to stand out. Well this is difficult to apply and my strokes are very much chaos if u look at them hehe.

ok thanks everyone and keep up the good work here guys. Remember I am all about discussion unless it is about the choice of this topic and mainly thread questions cause those goes in the discussion thread.
thanks everyone and thanks Freddio for making it sticky.

Matthew

[Lunatique]

I think if one attempts to learn from Sargent, one really have to ask just WHAT he/she is trying to get out of the copying. Just going through the motions is really just that--you do it, and you learned nothing. If you don't know what you're trying to get out of it, then why waste the time?

Sargent had a very specific way of seeing/interpreting things on canvas. He pushed contrast, colors, simplification, impressionism influences, and idealized many elements in his paintings, while using brush strokes that he demanded of himself to "get it right the first stroke--or else wipe the whole thing off and start over." If you're going to copy a Sargent, then you should take all those things into consideration and try to understand why each stroke was laid down the way it was, and why he chose colors you wouldn't normally associate with the subject, yet makes it all work together.

I wouldn't recommend Sargent to novices to copy from, because in many ways, Sargent is considered one of the most advanced painters in human history. It's like telling someone who just started learning guitar to try and learn from a Steve Vai song. Think about it--Sargent even makes Spooge nervous.

[Max]

These are old and I posted some of them before but since there's not much traffic here I thought it's okay to show more of my (bad) work than I usual do....
The last few are extremely old, In my eyes bad...but since it's just practising it's okay I think.
This weeklydrawingthreads were a great idea Matthew.
I will try to join them more often. Thanks for the affort!!

Sheff: Very good work. I can't give you any advice though cause you are much better than me anyway.
Matthew: I really like your first one!

[ceenda]

I'd be inclined to echo Lunatique's points. Might be an idea to link to Sargent's painting notes (on spooge's website) before doing these, to try and get a feel for how Sargent was instructing. Otherwise, it's no different to doing a study of any other item of portraiture or even a photo for that matter. Not that the work here isn't beautiful, btw! I better put up or shut-up.

Sheff: That painting "Lady Agnew" is in the local gallery. It's absolutely beautiful, and it's huuuuuuuuge. Couldn't tell you the size off-hand, but it take s up the main part of the wall.

[StylesDavis]

lunatique, yes, some true words. too bad that i didn't realized that when i did these copies, which are somewhat older. but i plan to do copies of drawings from another master, and then i would try to do it "right" and more accurate, since i lost patience at these like one can see.

following the trend, but ~6months ago :












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known as "ChrisNix" elsewhere.

[Max]

Ups, almost forgot this one...

[Sheff]

I'm at a point where I wonder what I should do with myself. I've been out of school for a while and I miss that environment. These forums are as close as I will come to getting back to it barring taking an inhouse job somewhere.

I think I'm at a point where I am fairly comfortable with my skill level. I know what I can and cannot do in a given amount of time. That's not to say that there isn't room for improvement because there is. In fact I've signed up for a painting workshop next month. I hope to gain as much insight into life as much as art.

I think that one can go their entire career trying to get better. I've seen people who are so focused on amassing skill, that I think they lose sight of their objective which I think should be to 'say something personal with your art.'

I'll never be Sargent. Nor will I ever be Dean Cornwell. I'll never be Thomas Blackshear or Steve Huston. Nor do I want to be. When I was in school, I would always try to learn the technique or imitate the style of my instructors. In the end, I would end up a bad copy of them. In some cases, I learned that I hated their work methods. As a result, I work in a lot of different ways. My portfolio looks like a bunch of different people rather than just one guy. I hate that. And to some degree, I'm trying to unlearn some things I got good at.

I often wonder, when is enough enough? When do you stop trying to improve and start saying something? Is it when you feel you own your visual voice enough to say something you feel strongly about? Is it when you have subject matter that you must deal with and you have to do something about it regardless of how good(or bad) you are?

I now find myself looking at work that looks fun to do rather showing off skill. I find myself drawn to that. I used to never understand why Dwight Harmon did what he did, but now I'm starting to get it.

Going back to a musical analogy that Lunatique started, you can't deny how good Steve Vai is, but I'm not a fan of his music(I do have Surfing with the Alien but I haven't listened to it in years). I'm not sure I even like Sargent anymore. And that's a taste thing, not a measure of his skill.

When I stand in front of the piece, I wanted to feel what it was like to stand in his shoes. And to that end, you try to proceed with the attitude you think he might have had when he was doing it. You need to proceed with absolute confidence in yourself.

I think trying to get to that mental state is more important than trying to learn the basics. You can learn the basics from any number of good teachers. I think what one should try to gain from Sargent are the intangible and unquantifiable things. If you proceed like a master, you will gain more, I think than if you proceed analytically with the mindset of a student.

Basically, I think you should try to 'feel it' more than 'think it.'

These copies are not Sargent so I posted links to them instead. I don't remember who I copied here. This was 3rd term, maybe 12+ years ago.

This is a Cornwell copy. I did this in upper term.
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Sheff
www.sheff.com

[StylesDavis]

hey sheff, impressive portfolio! just watched it. one pic reminds me on bouguereau somehow...
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known as "ChrisNix" elsewhere.

[Sheff]

Instead of Cupid and I forgot what that chicks name was, it's all about robot love.

The concept was for WD40 as lube.
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Sheff
www.sheff.com

[oDD]

orginal
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portfolio | art blog

[Lunatique]

[ax--hv]

Matthew, it�s nice to hear that :) Thanks. My big problem about thinking is that it switches off while painting..:) photoshop needs too much attention. I�m quite a noob in painting, so i can only wait when PS becomes as familiar as a pencil.
Hey, and don�t be sorry, it was my fault
..Ok.. So, here�s something that may interest u :)
I�ve noticed, that certain colors make a strong contrast, even if the value is the same � green and red, blue and yellow� So i tried to find out why. The reason is in cells that identify the color. There are three types of cells: green/red, blue/yellow and black/white. Cells work as +/- - if green then cell sends + signal, if red � and so on. It`s one of the reasons why you can`t imagine the mixture of that �opposite� colors (we only remember that green and red mix is brown, but it�s not about imagination). Photoshop uses this factor in sharpening filter as i see.
Sargent used that to give his images a great deep feeling: green color in skin, heavy saturated blue in day�s shadows� Spooge is master of those effects as well.
There are many limitations of eyes and brain to perceive the visual information that are useful for painting. Two of most popular in art are disability to see anything in the shadow of highlight (�flash-light into the eyes� effect) and glow around bright light.
Off course there are other important things - attention focus-based tricks such as importance and etc, recognizing forms and simplifying and others� but i don�t know almost anything about them yet (as you can see in my works :))

[Matthew]

Interesting discussion here guys thanks for sharing your views.

Max, thank you there, pm me if you have any ideas for topic.

ax--hv, this is really interesting and thank you for sharing. u know I am doing the same when I paint, somehow I tend to neglect what I have learned when doing speedys which makes it hell difficult, maybe I should plan way ahead before even doing one stroke on the canvas.

see you
Matthew

[Max]

you're welcome.
Happy B-day by the way. 27..wow
I turned 17 some months ago. Still a long way to go for me. And I still feel much too bad. I have to practise more...
Well, I gonna tell ya if I can think of any topic...

This discussion is indeed very interesting.
I think I got alot out of my copies. I am not after his style but the way to render noses, eyes,..etc just anatomy of the head. And this is easier to learn from artworks than from photos.

[Matthew]

I really wasn�t going for that work-method copying either but rather wanted to attempt that composition which I found very interesting, the Carolus Duran pic where he sits in a green jacket above.
This I believe is as difficult as simplification, to find a decent composition where a character can be placed, to think mainform and think of the whole as a unit rather than divide in small parts. Too bad I can�t render like that yet though cause it still looks kind of confusing, when attempting to do it speedy anyway.

Max, yea 27 years old and in need of a walking stick hehe, thx for the congratulations there. U know u have a lot of time to refine your skills and you are gonna be dangerous with the brush cause u are way better than me already. hey u should post some new digital stuff if you have some.

I must say this turned out to be the best Weekly drawing so far, thanks for all the views here people.
keep going everyone.

ok bed time
Matthew

[Capt. Fred]

[Sheff]

On improvement;

I think there comes a time where improving your skills is secondary to doing work that matters to you. If you continue to work your skills will improve as a byproduct of what you're doing.

The corollary is that you need to do work that really matters to you. Finding what that is is the hard part. Nothing sucks the life out of you faster than doing work you can't stand. But we all have our financial obligations we must deal with in order to survive.

I'm about to go have lunch with some potential clients that I suspect I will probably have assignments that won't be any fun. In fact, I found out I was invited to this lunch by mistake. I'm going nonetheless so I can show my face and hand out my card.

On the topic of acylic paint, vs. oil(your Velasquez piece Fred) I think that if you can master acrylic, you can master any other medium. It forces you to be quick and adapt your work methods to it's nuances. It's very versatile, but it can be hard to work with to get your desired results. Oil on the other hand obeys. But you need to own one medium completely and then transferr that level of mastery to the next medium you pick up. The same I guess could be said of software apps.

On the subject of light, always take into consideration the color of the light as well as the color of the object when you mix your colors. Charles Barkley once remarked that baskeball was a simple game and that most people overthink it. I think art is the same way. There are the basics that everyone needs to learn and then what you do with it is up to you. You have to see your goals as attainable or you will never reach them. Make sure your goals are realistic so that after you reach one, you can move on to the next. Aim too high, and you will be disappointed. Aim too low and you will have gained very little. Knowing that you know nothing is often not the starting point of wisdom, but rather the chains that keep you in the realm of 'I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy(Wayne and Garth)." Don't ever think, I'll never be as good as Sargent. Try to be to better than Sargent. At some point, you will realize you won't want to be Sargent. But by then you will have gained more skill to question your initial goals. Don't ever think, once I attain my goals, everything will come together and fit into place. Life usually doesn't work that way.

See your goal, practice your free throws. Sorry for rambling.
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Sheff
www.sheff.com

[two-na]

overlooking this thread I am amazed.. interesting it was to join you
this man has a very lovely technique, and I enjoyed this

original oil on canvas--transformed to office 2B pencil:
The Little Fruit Seller

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fish