[AndyT]

Is is normal that pencil drawings look like that:

(as if the paper surface is very rough?)

Should I just work bigger or is there something I'm doing wrong?
Or should I use a different kind of paper?
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[Light]

I'm so bored.

How big is that? The best size for paper is about 12x18 or so, I found.

If you pencil on rough paper you need soft pencils to shade.

That is OK pencil drawing. Pencil sketches can look like anything. Pencil renderings can look photorealistic.

Some people confuse pencil sketch with pencil rendering.

[AndyT]

I think I drew this with a 6B pencil ... guess that means it should be soft.
I just want to do some quick sketches and practice rendering that way.

Right the dimensions ... I updated the image.

Thanks for your reply.
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[hedlamb]

Try charcoal variants, or conte, if you haven't already.

[dfacto]

Yeah, i've found that pencil drawing scan that way if the paper is rough. Which it usually (always?) is. I would ink first, and then scan, or just scan and then go over it in Photoshop.
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[AndyT]

Thanks for you replies.

Conte and charcoal ... sounds pretty messy. And I don't think it's easier to handle than pencils.

Ok so it's normal. Good to know.

What do you guys think ... should I put filtered versions on my homepage or do they suck?




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[Matthew]

Hey Andy

Try to change your scanner settings to best possible when scanning your sketches. I usually scan my sketches which is pencil with black and white like in index colors to change them in Photoshop to RGB colors.
Make your scan in high resolution 150 dpi or higher with a pixel size above or around 1200. When you later resize the picture or sketch it looks way better. Scan in big sizes and then when you resize them they look better.
Let me know if it works better, also, what kind of scanner are you using? And what settings have you used?

see you
Matthew

[AndyT]

I scan @ 300 dpi and with grayscale.
I'm pretty happy with the result.
The problem is that it pretty much looks like the original

I'd have to scale the images down to 100 pixels width (or something like that)
to get rid of the noise or whatever that is called.

With a better JPG quality:


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[amichaels]

One of the reasons I don't like most generic sketchbooks is that the paper is too rough. I like to use Bristol board because it's nice and smooth and takes any pencil I use nicely.

[amichaels]

sorry bout the double post.

[asdfghjkl]

What! you dont like rough paper! thats crazy. i cant use smooth paper ( esp with light pencils) it feels llike im scratching my nails on a black board .well any ways it think yr sketches should remain unfiltered .

[Max]

I use "printerpaper" for all my studies.
It's cheap and I don't have to be careful not to waste to much.

It also depands on the pencil you use of course.
I mostly work with mechanical pencils but that's just my taste.

For skeching 2b or 3b is the best imo.
Charcoal is quite funny to use but it's hard to get clear lines.
At the same time it is so rough and dry kinda ...I always get thirsty when I use it...crazy


Some of my pencils on printerpaper (not rough as you know)
Scanned with 300dpi




I like the filterd version between. First I thought they were watercolor...
I would try real watercolor...it ain't easy to use but you should really try it.
B�ack and white first - then color
Which filter is this?

As for your drawings,...I wouldn't care to much about shading at your stadium.
It is very important to get the main proportions right and learn the anatomy (bones and muscles) of the face and body first. If you know the main struktur/form of the face or body you will do alot better in shading the form right. - Loomis,...well you know anyway

I like the girl with the necklace. The shading in her face is very good!

Good luck

[AndyT]

amichaels:
Bristol board sounds expensive

max:
You can't be serious. Learning anatomy before learning to draw ?
Thanks for your help though.

Yeah I didn't want to tackle anatomy before I get the proportions right when I'm copying.
I thought it was time to try to go on to COPYING values now ... I guess I was wrong.
I think I'll give up the whole pencil shit.

The filter was selective gaussian blur:
max delta: 50
whatever that means!?

I was gonne try smudging to get a smoother look ...

[Drew]

Gah, don't give up Andy! These sketches aren't bad. What you really need is to draw larger. As in, much, much, much larger. Though it's certainly ok to make smaller sketches, if you don't ever work large you are wasting your time. As Light suggested, 12x18 would be a good place to start, but go bigger if you have an easel. That doesn't mean buy the paper and put fifty, 2.5 inch drawing on each page! Cover the entire page with one drawing. In fact, you can make the object so large that it doesn't fit on the paper.

Why? There are several reasons. First, you'll get rid of that grainyness that you don't like. Second, and more importantly, you'll have to change the way you draw in order to be able to do anything in a reasonable amount of time. Instead of drawing short lines with your wrist, you'll draw huge lines, using your whole arm starting at the shoulder. That will help keep your lines loose, smooth and confident instead of sketchy and nervous. You'll be able to greatly vary your line weight, and shading will become much easier.

It's true that charcoal is messy. Since you work so small, it must be confusing to see it sold in chunks that allow it to make a mark as large as one of your sketches. That's because it's meant to be used on large paper, and you'll appreciate it much more after you try to use a pencil to fill in that much area. It's much, much faster and allows you to make huge dark lines very quickly.

You used a 6b to draw these? If you are going to draw small, you'll probably get better results with a harder lead. I don't use anything softer than 2b for small stuff, and even that gets dull very, very quickly. Try an hb. You seem to be on the right track overall. I would guess that after you fill a large sketchbook with large drawings you'll see great improvement in your drawings. Also, doing tiny drawings like these will take you 1/2 the time. They're so small!

So, go out, buy big paper, draw big, and let us see how it's going. Good luck!

[AndyT]

Ok I slept and I'm still frustrated.
Max is right. Basically what he is saying after more than one year and 1057 posts is:
Since you are just starting out your images have to suck. Start all over again.

And I still don't think starting with anatomy is a good idea.
I wouldn't know where to start.

I don't think I could work larger. The "using the whole arm to draw" thing doesn't work for me.
I can draw straight lines like that but everything curvey is too shaky.
And yeah I tried to draw circles like that as a warmup exercise. I just suck.

And I don't know what else I should try. I think I'd need guidance ... maybe see how other artists work
(not in opencanvas files)

I just can't dedicate my life to art like that. And I don't have what it takes to learn drawing myself.
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[Matthew]

hey Andy

I also know the feeling of being frustrated and being told to get back to the basics and it�s not that bad really and once the basics is there you can focus on other parts.
I for myself need to get back to the basics too and try to learn all the different muscles and bone structures and I know Max has going back and forth with his anatomy too and he is starting to get really good with his anatomy.
Working big is a good advice as the guys above said but when you do try to make one part at a time, that way you will see things big and can easily spot the errors in the pictures. I am doing this when I am doing portraits. A good way is to start with the thing you like the most, for me it is portraits so I started to make those big, like fill up a whole page, A4 size will do for heads.
Try out different shadings to, too see which shading fits you the most, I guess for me it is all those small strokes that you have seen and that makes everyone chill in their spine ..hehe, Something I have to work on too, in my digital work anyway.
And one more great suggestion that I was neglecting about a year ago but something that is very good both for inspiration and for good practise, that is to attend to a life-drawing class or to make Landscape drawings. I have started in a small scale with landscape drawings cause I had to study books before I started with those cause there are a lot of confusing things to think of.
I got some tips from my teacher too when we were studying shapes and forms and one of the teachers brought negative spaces to attention and that was like an AHA experience for me, I was like -" maan why haven�t I been told this earlier" :) . Well I know I have said this before and maybe you have read it but it is things like that makes you wanna be better all the time, and there are a lot of things to be taught too.
I don�t know if you know about this collection but it is a collection of books called "Leonardo Collection", I have 4 of those books and they come in all different categories, horses, Landscape and anatomy and a bunch more books. They are very thin and quite cheapish actually and I have found those books to be very good. They explain both shading tecniques and different compostions and when browsing through them the inspiration boosts off to 250%. ok I found a website in the books when I just checked and you can have a look at them and see what you think about them. Maybe they can be retrieved in one of your local painting stores.
My favourite painting store in my neighbourhood has a real big bunch of these books and everytime I buy something I also buy a book.

http://www.vinciana.com

This was a whole lot of rambling from me, I hope something helped and that you keep going with your art cause I think that you are on your way, especially with you 500 list and all. Maybe you can do some pencil-sketches with one of the topics from the 500 list.

Keep it up and I see you in the forum
Matthew

P.S. Max I hope it was ok I mentioned your anatomy struggle and your advancing with your anatomy. :)
I will send you an pm Max cause it was some long time ago. :)

[Max]

Wait, wait wait, noone said your images suck.
And I even didn't lie when I said I like the necklace girl. I REALLY like her!!!
These are nice drawings Andy.

You are not bad and you have improved let me tell you that.
I didn't say learn anatomy before you leran to draw...did I?
I said, with knowing the bones and muscle your shading and proportions will look much better.
Before you don't know enough about the mainstruktur/construction whatever,.. of the head you won't be able to shade it correctly...I think

So if you just don't shade you don't have to know them exactly (sure: it's always better to know them)
FIRST: line
Then: Value, shading

If the lines aren't right - the shading won't be eighter
If you wanna learn the basics of anatomy try Loomis "Have fun with the pencil" Just start, print out the images you like and copy. It's not real anatomy but you can see the main forms very well and that is what you need now. If you copy alot of his images you will learn fast. At least I did. There you go, just try it if it doesn't work for you try drawing from life.

You don't have to start all over again.
Many people go back to the basics. I am still at the basics.
You have to get your motivation back....

AND: drawing is still much easier then painting. I don't paint much becase I wanna learn drawing first. It's easier to lern to draw a good face then to paint it with color...I hope that's not only my point opf view.

You have what it takes to learn drawing like everybody else but you lack of motivation.
Take Fun with a Pencil by Loomis. Copy what you like. Go through the whole book and you will be ALOT better afterwards.

But the most important thing is still to have fun doing it.
If you like shading your drawings, go for it, but don't forget the other things.

have a nice day


EDIT: you were faster then me Matthew It takes so lon to write in english (for me)
Of course it's okay Matthew no problem

[AndyT]

Thanks for the your efforts Matthew and Max! But ...

[spooge demon]

hey andyt, front and center!

1. The grain is coming through in your drawings cause yes they are smallfor a 6b pencil and the shape style of drawing. Try a harder lead to work at this size. in the future try a no 2 pencil and just typing paper.

2. I would recommend these more strongly, but I have not looked at it in a while, the betty edwards books are really pretty good. Try them

3. this is something I have suggested many times, and has helped me hugely early on, master copies. Get a book of Sargents portrait drawings (dover) and some charcoal (in various hardnesses) and scientifically go about making an exact duplication of a drawing. Not your interpretation, not an approximation, but a forgery that will stand up to a magnifying glass. BE PRECISE, be exact. You will begin to see how it works. I still do these from time to time and there is no better way to get inside anothers head.

I really think this will help you.

[Snakebyte]

I�m not to sure if this relevant to the conversation but something you could try doing to your pencil sketches is this�


What I do for some of my photoshop renderings is draw it in pencil, scan it, than use the smudge tool (hard edge, 0 spacing, 20-50% opacity) and give it� a good smudging�
This picture was done on a crappy 11x14 sketch book that I picked up from a local OfficeMax. All I use is a #2 pencil (the same kind I used is school) and a run of the mill mechanical pencil.

I never learned anatomy when I started to draw some 11 years ago and now its catching up to me. I just wanted to draw naked women when I started and tried to skip the entire learning process and jump to drawing masterpieces. Because of that I now HAVE to have a manikin, Poser5, or some other human reference for pose and proper proportions. If you were to hand me a blank sheet of paper, I can not draw a person and get it right.

You don�t necessarily have to start all the way back over, you can learn anatomy and drawing at the same time.
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[Light]

Snake,

You've really improved well at least from what I remember. Try find my magic article. It might be useful to you (might not). But, yeah doing figuers without reference is not an easy task.

Anyway also I want to add that if you do pencil sketches then be careful with burnishing.. it can look good but the doing good works with grain too is nice.

You can take rendering with pencil to so many levels. I haven't though. ;0

[Drew]

[Connor]

You might also try a book by Anthony Ryder called The Artist's Complete Guide To Figure Drawing. It's a great book for technique. I find it easier to draw on gray or gold paper and then put in shadow's and highlights. She's on a full sheet of Canson paper. Bigger is better with pencil. Much more time consuming but better.

[liv the fish]

spooge and Drew hit on some good things here. I'd follow their advice. As spooge said, you're using a far too soft pencil for the size your drawing at. I'm betting you get half way through and have a little nub left. And Drew pointed out that you should practice a technique until you're comfortable with it.

There seems to be the expectation that if you can't draw well or do a certain drawing technique well the first time you do it, then you just can't do it. That's just not true. Like everything you have to practice at it. How many times did you fall off your bike? Slip on your rollerblades? How many words could you read at age 5? Some people think drawing is some gift that only certain people have. It's a skill just like everything else. Some are better at it than others, even natural with it, but it can be learned. Don't stop trying to draw larger because a few sketches you did turned out like crap. Every artist, yes even the good ones, make crap sketches.

Now, I"m just starting to repeat what Drew said. Though I'll say it would be a shame to see you give up because I can see some skill and a bit of talent in your work. A year is nothing. I've been drawing for 15 years and I still have lots to learn. I look at other people's work that have been drawing many years less than me and they just blow me away. The point is, everyone has a different rate of learning. Trying to learn on your own is the longest route but can be done. Books will be a great help to you. I'd recommend the Betty Edwards book too, because all of her techniques are taught in drawing classes (at least the ones I took). It's better to have a mentor IMO, but sometimes that isn't an option. You gotta go with what you have. Just make sure you're not overlooking resources that are readily available...these boards for critiques, books, life-drawing for an hour at a park or beach if you're so lucky

hoping you stick with it,
Brian
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[AndyT]

Right now I'm organizing my thoughts ... then I'll write a longer reply.

I just have to say that I don't want to give up because I don't like the sketches.
They where drawn only to demonstrate the grain problem.
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[oDD]

i havent read the reaplies BUT

1. don't use the filtered version, PLEASE !!!!!!!
2. when you rescale the pics - is the pallete limited to a number of colors? so it prevents pics to be antyaliased while resizing ? if so change it to the full RGB. i hope you knwo what i'm talking about.
3. i will be in work tommorow so will have alot of time to write so i will probably read what are you talking here about
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[Petteri]

This is THE tutorial:

http://www30.brinkster.com/ohjaus/

by Finnish artist Matti Kataja. If link doesn�t work, try to copypaste it to your browser.

[amichaels]

Bristol is kind of expensive, but I like the way it takes my standard mechanical pencil smoothly, and ink lays down nicely without bleeding as well. I only use rough paper when I am doing life drawing. When I am just sketching I usually use the cheapest, slickest printer paper I can find. Usually about 5 or 6 bucks for 500 sheets. I like the hardbacked sketchbooks you can buy at most bookstores now because they usually have a nice smooth paper. But when I use a pencil, I am usually trying to lay down nice linework ala comic book pencils, so the need to render light and shadow isn't the same as your normal life drawing since you're going to put ink on top of it.

Also, it seems like part of being an artist is rarely ever being satisfied with your work. It's pretty rare that I actually do something I don't find fault in.

[AndyT]

[edit 2]oDD: Sorry a lot to read. If you haven't yet: you don't have to [/edit 2]

Thanks for all the replies.

[Max]