Sijun Forums :: View topic - is art a profitable or beneficial career anymore??

the_insider · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:14 pm

well i was talking to some people and thinking about my brother that supposedly found out the "truth".....there are way too many artists in this world (most of them being in asia--ish) and many starving artists becuz of that......
...is it worth my time to make this into a career? or will i end up broke??
i wanted to ask here since many people here are already up there with the best.....any takers???answers??
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Matthew · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:35 am

Hello

I think it is as Spooge said and that is that the 3d is taking over more and more. I have tried to attend to some different game company�s here in sweden and they only want people with 3d-skills, textures and 2d-graphics seems to come in 2nd place or 3rd place or even 4th place, crazy.

It�s a tricky question and I am having trouble with even get into some Art-schools.
But I think the most important for me is, I dont care about money, it�s more important to do what you want to do and I have made such crazy works so far, repairing trains and shit and working for a company repairing printers and the boss wouldn�t even explain what I should do and he sighed all the time cause I didn�t know how to fix some of it, maan, Electrical work sucks...big time....Big time.....huu.
Anyway, Art rocks. And I think you can make in the artist field the_insider.

Hope my point of view wasn�t to boring
Matthew

goldenavatar0 · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:55 am

the_insider: No field of study can guarantee you any job for sure. If that were possible the words unemployment & jobless wouldn't exist. When one goes into a college to study in any major, in preparation of entering the work force, you have to remain aware of the fact that your education isn't just a means to better yourself, it's also the better means to earn an income for yourself, potentially a family, and to establish some degree of economic independence.

There are varying reasons for starving artists in this world. Some artists starve because they refuse to beleive that they can't support themselves as anything OTHER then artists, some are starving because well, they don't mind going hungry a few times, and others are just stubborn and/or stupid and feel their artistic skills/abilities/talents MUST earn them an income. Entering the arts for the pursuit of a primary income is in many respects more difficult than anyone describe. That said, be aware in many respects that earning money through your skills/talents/abilities in the arts can and will be a struggle if you decide to do so, a constant and trying one that often times yeilds you little if any monetary reward for your commitment and time.

I won't say it's impossible to get a stable income in the arts, as many people here ARE doing this, but many people WON'T is the point I'm getting at. You learn the arts, not for the money, few artists really get paid and many are dependant upon their family for support. You enter the arts because it gives you a sense of joy, it fills something in you that wouldn't be filled otherwise.

Some of the art students here will probably enlighten you to how some of their families are so-so on supporting their desire to become artists. It's because it's just that difficult a route to earn an income and as parents they seek to see their offspring be as self-reliant as possible. And parents can only be patient with their childs stubborness for so long if they haven't left the nest by a certain age.

Now, I'm not saying you won't make it as an artist, you may very well become a phenomonal artist who always getting steady work good paying work, but not all artists will is what I'm trying to get across. Beign afriad of what might happen when it hasn't will only assure you that you won't do well. If being an artist is what you wish to be, then by all means do it. Just don't be surprised by any difficulties you encounter, strive to rise above it.

But don't be disappointed in yourself if you have to work a job you dislike to support your artistic pursuits.
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Citizen Cow · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:00 am

the_insider · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:26 am

matt--thanx for the re-assurement...not too boring at all
goldenavatar0-- you thoughroughly explained some other questions i had in mind also...thanx
so now i understand it as i most likely will have to do a job on the side to support myself and my art and hopefully somewhere along the lines i might get recognized
i was too much in the mind frame that just going to a good art college guarantees you a living...i see what you mean though
now if i may ask....im not into 3d really so whats a rather good field nowadays other than 3d to get into?? MATT said 2-d is not very popular now right?

also, goldenavatar0...what is YOUR status right now with college and wutnot (assuming you're an artist)
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Matthew · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 6:37 am

That is what I have understood anyway, with 3d I mean. It seems like Matte painting and stuff is getting replaced with 3d....not sure about it but spooged mention something about that. The Matte-painting scene is not big here in sweden as what I know about.
And the most animated movies are made with 3d too, just look at disney�s stuff, they are using more and more 3d too, and the Cartoony feeling can be made with 3d filters too.
As what I think Color theory�s and stuff should be useful even in 3d and other graphics related work or schools

Yeah thanks for the earlier insight Goldenavatar.

You are just a flamer CCOW.

Art Garfunkel. - Art rocks - 2d-Art rocks

Capt. Fred · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:05 am

yeah, I;m glad you asked that question the_insider, I'm very much interested in the answers myself.

And anyway, 3d is just as much art as 2d. Everything apart from the medium, the method for achieving the artistic vision is the same as with 2d, so it's not like you'd have t put down your paintbrush and study to become an astronough or somehitng.

i dont think that made snese

Matthew · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:30 am

Well, Here I am again.

That�s not what I meant, Everything is art, even the way how you hold a cigar.
What I meant is that everything is going for a quicker goal, everything needs to cheaper everything needs to be done faster.
With 3d you are making a Statue and I would say that there are no brushes involved in the 3d-process, just for the texture.
When painting you are truly making something out of your own, with 3d you are making something that was already there.

Well, maybe I made no sense now either.

Matthew

ebrian · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 10:38 am

Glad you bring this topic.
Can't help but ask: has art ever been profitable?
Perphas it has, but that only happens after the death of the artist. LOL

Yes, there are way too many artist in this world. When I was in Shanghai, I got to compete with thousands of professional art school graduates, with my poor unprofessional background. And when eventually I got a job as an assistant designer in a PR company, I found it was not at all what I imagined. I was not working as an artist, but as a "worker" who has to make tasteless advertising pictures". Soon I quit the job. It is far more profitable and relaxing to be a teacher who just teaches stupid English. Mm, we got to face the reality.
(But I still think Asia is kinda of lagging behind a little, we dont have such a fully developed digital artists network, shall I say)
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ahw · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:40 am

My experience of art in the Real World is not exactly what you might call optimistic, but maybe it would be of some use to you ?

In my case, well, I had to deal with parents who have a very realistic view of life... which meant that "Art wont put food on your plate" (they said that when I was 16, and they still say that now that I am 24...)
But because they saw how important it was to me, they still let me do Fine Arts as evening courses. And so it is that now, I am finishing my MSc in Computing, and yet I still do quite a lot art (well, with the time I have anyway)
The real problem is practice, and the lack thereof.
If you go and study for something to bring food home (in my case Computing), you dont have as much opportunity to widen your artistic horizons. Only when I was in Fine Arts did I have the chance to try my hand at various media like metal/wood/lino carvings, sculpting/modelling, oil/acrylic and the ever important live painting with models. For the last 5 years I have been in Ireland, unable to really have access to anything like it (I am in some God forsaken place).
And what happened was quite normal : I didnt really make any progress.
Oh, I learnt how to use Photoshop, and Flash, and Director, and all those tools... but they are just that, *tools*.
I doubt that if I went back home now and applied to the Fine Arts they would take me as easily as they took me 5 years ago.

My point is, it doesnt really matter if you choose Art as a full time study path, what really matters is that you do learn something useful, and more importantly, that you have the opportunity to *practice* and discover new things.
My point is, if you find that a reasonable alternative is to follow a "safe" carreer path, or if you parents tell you that they wont help you if you go for Art (like mine did) dont depair : you can still get good at Art, it will just demand a bit more work on your part.
IMHO, avoid something like a Graphic Design course. There are jobs in the business, but you might be really disappointed as the focus is on making something that *sells*, not making Art. You would be better off with evening courses like I did.
The real problem comes when you actually do get a job, if the job is so intense that you dont have time to practice your Art anymore.
Then you will have to make a choice, for the better or the worse.

Personally I am trying to make it as a lecturer, with the hope that I can go back to practising Art more often than I do now...

as for making money as an Artist ? Well, I know a few guys who live out of it, but they are all using what they learnt in Fine Arts to make what I would call commercial Art. In fact, I know a few guys who, having done Fine Arts, can still do commercial art without having gone through the disheartening and sterile experience of Graphic Design. (well, me included, in fact, since I do flyers and posters for my mates once in a while, though I do it for free).

I am the only one in thinking that Graphic Design should be avoided like the plague ? Fine Arts is much more versatile and wide ranging IMO.
If you go for Art, go for the real thing.

I wonder if this was of any use... but ah well Razz

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Drunken Monkey · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 11:48 am

I am also curious to what the pros (people whos income comes from their art career) have to say.
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Matthew · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:23 pm

ahw - thank you for sharing your view.
Why is parents like that anyway? I mean my parents are the same and we have had the wildest discussion nowadays cause I am so fed up with those kind of comments.
For me it�s kind of crazy, I have never been encourage by my parents to play the guitar when I was younger and I was skating for many years and they said that it�s all just a hobby and you can never make a living out of it, comments like that is so un-necessary and my little brother has been skating for some years now and to him they said that he could only skateboarding to the age of 15 and then quit. That made me very angry so I have said that they can�t say that, dunno if they listen thou but I think some of my comments came through, cause he is still skating.

But for me it has been different, I told my parents a couple of years ago that Art is the way to go for me and my dad of course had to say what he thought about it, and he said that it was mainly crap and all that, and I went very angry and asked him back what I was supposed to do. Cause here the situation is quite disturbing actually. I am as I said in the top post educated in the electrical field and there are no jobs and that is the same in all the different fields here in Sweden, at least from my point of view, not easy to get a job.
Anyway, it is the comments I hate the most, they have made complaints about my hair and if I have growed a beard and all that. So I said earlier this year that I was gonna cut down on my visits to them if they don�t stop with all those un-necessary comments and So I have also, During the Easter I wasn�t visiting them and I think they have finally got the message through, or maybe not, but they should do it otherwise it will take even more longer time before I visit them again.

Dunno if this will help anyone, maybe I will only depress someone but I recognized myself in the things you wrote ahw.

Say no to stupid comments
Matthew

Chilly · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 12:55 pm

As someone who does make a living doing art...(tattoo artist 11 years) with some quailifications in the real world to (freelance illustration). I have to say the money is not as grand as it was in the 80's. In the 80's a freelance job for levi's for example could go for 25,000 dollars, where as now it could go for 7,500 dollars, still no small change but inflatation and the down turn of pay does not make much sense. But you do have more people doing art, some not as good as others...but really how many averege people do you know who notice the design of a coke can or look at movies with an artistic eye... very few...maybe 15% of the world.

You also have to consider the "new" artists just out of school looking for a job, they find one but the employer makes them do everything illustration, graphic design, web design, animation, and make coffee...for a measly 25,000 dollars...

That will have to stop before things change and pay starts going up.

oh well...

It's not as bad as I make it sound.

Chilly
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Max · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:12 pm

the_insider · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:11 pm

Capt. Fred--i guess i see what your saying
i think i might start to get more into computer animation...im taking a class yet i cant seem to feel very interested in it yet...maybe im TOO traditional style---
ebrian---my dad was trying to scare me saying they have like buildings after buildings with nothing but people just like drawing or creating in china...also that they get payed less than anywhere else which makes it so hard...fact or fiction??
AHW--see im 16 and my parents are saying those same things..."SO YOU ACTUALLY WANNA FOLLOW THROUGH WITH ART?!!"
its irritating---
i know what you mean about not having time to practice...school gets in the way so i can only IMAGINE what it'll be like in 4 years
CHILLY--hows the tattoo artist buisness?? do you think it would be wise to get into??? as a job on the side i mean....what are some requirments??
MAX K--what are your plans for college??
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Chilly · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 2:52 pm

Tattooing can be all right, But there are so many people, everybody and their plumbers are tattoo artists. The key to tattooing is get a great artistic education then utilize that and the best thing is to draw draw draw and be very good at it, be very objective with your drawing and it helps if you grow a back bone...people in this industry are rather blunt and say things like "you drew that...that sucks!" even if it doesn't. Another thing would be to become an apprentice at the best shop in your area...that way they will teach you and if you do something wrong they will help you.

I'll be happy to talk more about it privately or in this or another forum.

Very Happy

kevin
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Citizen Cow · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:24 pm

dr . bang · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:34 pm

Where's Robert Ashley when we need him?!
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the_insider · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 4:04 pm

first of all...who the hell is ROBERT ASHLEY?!!
CHILLY--i would definately like to get some insight on this...it seems like the funnest job in the world....do you have any sites or any work online? id love to see some....how old do you have to be? err...well...we shouldnt talk on this thread but if you have AIM mine is INSIDERVII
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Anthony · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:42 pm

Art is...very profitable :]
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Matthew · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:05 am

ccow - give me a reason why I should not call you a flamer? I mean when you are giving answers with icons like that you are just being sarcastic.
And with add-ons on earlier comments you have made I think I can call you a flamer, I am not picking a fight thou but you are.

Matthew

ebrian · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:10 am

Insider, unfortunately, what your Dad said is somewhat true in a western's perspective. You see we have such a large population, so we need residence apartments to give everybody a place to live, especailly in big cities. I was fed up with this super-crowed environment and decided to get out to take a rest. But ofcourse we have beautiful places and almost everything that can be found in western countries.
When most artists enter the profession, the pay is rather low. Usually the graphic designer gets the lowest payment in a website company.

Ahw, I agree with you. Yet unfortunately, graphic design seems to be the only way to make some real money (especially in China as I know). I would paint to death if I want to make a living on painting. But if I say I am a graphic designer, all I need to do might be doing some photomanipulation or making some shapes and call them logos. (Not being disrespect to graphic designers) Still I stubbronly believe that painting is the most origional way of making arts.
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Max · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:46 am

insider:

tommyboy73 · junior member Member # Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 13

Wow, a lot of you guys have a negative view of graphic design. Hate to tell you graphic design encompasses more than just page layouts and logos. I work as a graphic designer/art director for a very large pharmaceutical company. I do everything from packaging, logos, catalogs, displays, illustrations. You name it. I do it. And I'm paid pretty well. Let's just say over 50K a year. I also have a profitable design business on the side where by I do projects more along the line of my interests. Cartooning, illustration, fantasy art etc. If your asking can you make a living as a "fine artist" i.e. painter, sculpter etc. The answer is maybe!! if there is a demand for your particular type of work. The truth of the matter is no one studies art to be poor. You use the skills you learn and apply them to everyday applicaions like packaging, posters, brochures etc. Sure it's not glamourous work, but that is the reality of the art field if you want to make a living at it. Thankfully the 3D realm has opened doors to doing more creative types of work like character design, modeling, concept design etc. a lot quicker than traditional methods allowed. Only problem with that is that now pay rates are lower, and now you have much more competition. You see the computer has put the power of creation (not necessarily creativity) into the hands of a lot non artists, so now you have job competition from non artists who are just good at using a computer, where as those positions would normally be occupied by traditional artists. Also schools these days pump out art students like a cookie cutter. Basically you can have students with virtually no real talent that graduate with a 2.0 GPA barely passing and guess what, the have the same BFA you do and you had a 4.0. Now you have to compete with these people for a job. Ultimately the artist who is traditionally trained and skilled in modern technigues will be the ones to make it. Think about it this way. If computers ceased to exist tomorrow could you still create art/design that is sellable. If you can than I'd say your art training has just paid off and you can make a profitable living in the art world. Those folks who are not traditionally trained and just know computers will most likely be on the unemployment line. So I guess my anser is yess, you can make a good living doing artwork traditional or otherwise.

ahw · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:41 am

Chilly wrote it better than me

Lev_0 · junior member Member # Joined: 06 Sep 2001 Posts: 47

I think the idea is to be better than what's currently out there. A lot of people aren't "making it" because their work is poor, not because the job market is bad. If you're as good or better than the people currently working in whatever industry you chose, you'll make it. Once you can draw well, a lot of fields open up to you- illustration, freelance concept design/industrial design, animation, texturing, 3d (give yourself a few months you can learn how to do the basic 3d stuff pretty well, I wouldn't focus on learning any 3d program so early). There's lots of opportunity in illustration, medical illustration, etc. for small products. Look at the work of people who are starving or not getting employed, I'd bet the majority of them don't have quality work or work fit for whatever field they want to get into. If it doesn't work out for you in the end you can always teach hehe. Better to take the chance now rather than waiting till you're 40 years old and regretting never having tried.

I think 40 hours a week on your art should get you there in 4 or 5 years, if you can't make 40 it may take you longer but at least you'll get there eventually.

the_insider · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 2:41 pm

well the last three replies have been very convincing...tommyboy AHW and LEV_O gave me much hope...except that part that LEVO said about at least 40 hours of artwork will get you there...EEK i guess im out,,,,TOO much skool--im lucky to even do a couple decent sketches....thanx everybody...this has been on my mind for a long while...
....now that i look back on it...i guess my brother didnt make it because his work was a bit on the amateur side...he's the reason i got so worried.
neway...THANX
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Lev_0 · junior member Member # Joined: 06 Sep 2001 Posts: 47

40 hours is what manley recommends, that's if you're really focusing, if you got a job or go to school it's hard to meet that, I'm sure there's people working that haven't done that much work for 4 years straight. Look up some posts by jason manley, he's always talkin about this stuff.

Chilly · Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:18 pm

Tommyboy has got it just right...nailed it right on the head.

and by the way...ANY art job is great as long as YOU make it that way.

Which is how I think Tommyboy does (thats my impression at least)

By the way Tommyboy any openings there? Wink

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Lev_0 · junior member Member # Joined: 06 Sep 2001 Posts: 47

Insider- http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114