[Egg Beater]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/23/russia.siege/index.html

Ugh, this is sooo depressing. It never ends. Terrorism is becoming the new "normal" everywhere. I hope this is resolved without any killing of hostages (but lots of killing of the Chechen bastards responsible), as hopeless as that may be.

Shizo?

[Sukhoi]

Yeah, 'cause all we need to do is to kill all our enemies!!!!!

I hope you see the irony in this. Because while it IS true it's not the only way.

Is noone asking "why are these people pushed this far"?? I'm not accepting terrorism, I just think we should for a brief moment ask "why" that's all.

I know this sounds lame but violence breeds violence.

Btw Egg Beater, I feel the same exhaust over these things as you do.

Sukhoi

[Giant Hamster]

Yay!!

[[Shizo]]

Well i can say that a whole lot is going on there right now, everyone is on their heads.
I wount say a lot since i don't know everything about the situation, but looks like the Chechens let go the women and children (as well as Muslims and non-Russians) but there were firefights with them and police. I think they have a lot of explosives too, there were large bombings by them before.
I'm reading the Russian news paper by the way and news come in really quickly, and there is a huge amount of them.. i go read it all now.
We'll see how it goes..

[[Shizo]]

This was posted on a Chechen separatists website (http://kavkaz.org/) :

(Urgent!) Moscow under attack by Chechen suicide bombers!!!....
Movsar Barayev contacted �Kavkaz Center� news agency and informed that Chechen mujahideen took 1000 persons as hostages in a theater in Moscow. Movsar Barayev is commanding the Chechen group. According to him, his team consists of 40 widows in addition to a number of Chechen soldiers. Building has been mined. All participants in the operation are equipped with grenades and mines. Movsar Barayev stated that those who attacked Moscow are suicide bombers. The demand is only one - curtailment of war and beginning of immediate withdrawal of Russian aggressors from Chechnya� Barayev announced that Chechen mujahideen arrived in Moscow not to survive, but to die. He also informed that all children, who were present in the building of theater, have been released.......Agency is in contact with Mujahideen and is pursuing the events.

[Jucas]

Violence begets violence. Why do you think these "people" have taken hostages in the first place?

[Egg Beater]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jucas:
Violence begets violence. Why do you think these "people" have taken hostages in the first place?

---

Right, so they're completely justified in their terrorism. There is NO justification for taking innocent people hostage. Past events, current events, whatever... it can't be justified. Violence in general can't be justified. Have a heart.

[Coaster]

lalalalalalala

every group of more then 5 people is stupid, end of conversation.

[[Shizo]]

At least here i can understand their message, although it's not like Chechens are all innocent people. Somehow there are just as many bandits and warlords as there are in Afghanistan, and they're doing their thing too close to Russia, and Armenia/Georgia and these countries. That's why there are RUssian troops there. Certainly the problem couldn't be resolved with an army. It can't be contained efficiently either, as we now see after a few years of this going on.
Good thing is that their message is clear (although i heard something about money.. but i doubt that they want money and be equipped to die at the same time).
This means the officials will now pay attention to this more and hopefully resolve in a diplomatic way. While in the case of WTC the message was hidden by the governmen :0

[Jucas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Egg Beater:

Right, so they're completely justified in their terrorism. There is NO justification for taking innocent people hostage. Past events, current events, whatever... it can't be justified. Violence in general can't be justified. Have a heart.

---

Ehhhh... WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? I don't mean you any disrespect, but really... how many assumptions did you make based on my post?

I really don't understand how you drew that conclusion based on my post. I am not saying they are justified in there actions in ANYWAY! Simply, that violence begets violence. On that note, How can we justify putting these "terrorists" to death if we wish to stop these acts of hatred.

[[Shizo]]

Hmm, suddenly i see situation much much worse than it seemed before. And it seemed really bad before as it was :0

First of all our family friend - Anna Politkovskaya talked to terrorist leader and he said that EVEN IF the hostages are let go free, they're all still going to fight the surrounding troops till the end.

And another thing. They made a research on the leader (Mavsar Basaev) and he has the worst history that a terrorist can ever imagine.
There is a lot there, but mainly his idols were his sister who rammed a truck full of explosives into some militia camp or base, and his uncle who killed some British hostages by cutting off their heads, and basically was making a living from kidnapping people and taking hostages.
Mavsar was trained by bandits since he was 10, and he took over his uncle's team after his death planning many attacks on Russian forces and taking hostages (of many nationalities).

[Hase]

I think that Sukhois point is valid... and this is also not "just" about terrorism, if you have people who are willing to die because they have no other option of voicing their beliefs left .... and the Chechnya war has been pretty much ignored by the rest of the world.

[Hase]

update: seems a lot of people suffocated or were seriously injured by the gas used during the assault.

[[Shizo]]

116 hostages died of suffocation.. The doctors say that the gas (used widely for anestesia, but was more concentrated in this case) would not harm anyone in regular conditions, but because people spent so much time without enough food, movement, and little air (they had to go to the bathroom right there).

Although it's sad that so many hostages were killed by the gas as well, the surviving people told that they were happy the spec ops used it, because they were told they were all going to die in any case.

[Egg Beater]

Sorry Shizo, but I'm not gonna buy that for a second.

The fucking Russian government killed 50 TIMES as many hostages with their wonderful gas, than the fuckin' rebels did with their guns.

The rebels only willingly executed 2 people. The Russian government executed 115. That is bullshit. Negotiations were NOT at a standstill, and the nerve gas used is being kept "secret" by the government. They won't even release the information to the doctors so that they can figure out an antidote of sorts. Complete Communism. Only the strong survive, just like the old Russia.

Tragic, irresponsible, and completely UNforgivable.

[[Shizo]]

None of what you said is true, Egg Beater.
The gas was used in the military, and other countries have it. As i said it's used in medical purposes and more.
The already unwilling negotiations stopped totally and the terrorists said they would shoot any negotiators trying to enter the building. The action of spec ops was trigerred only by the terrorists who started killing hostages (as they said they would) so it wasn't planned to go in, although they were ready for it.
Did you forget all the women had bombs on them? Hostages were told by these women that they wanted to go to allah, and that they were going with them.
Also a telephone conversation of one of the terrorists was released to the public which included words "the work begins today, you have to go. we will start the work and shoot the 'juciest' ones first".
Not to mention that the leader himself, Mavsar Basaev, had a history of terracts. If you read on top there is some more info on him.

As you can see your information is incorrect and conclusions are out-of-the-ass.

[Egg Beater]

Read the news, buddy. Mother Russia isn't all it's cracked up to be.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.deaths/index.html

I guess the rest of the world is misinformed, and talked "out-the-ass" as well, huh?

[[Shizo]]

Nevermind, i see your source of information is very limited. I wount try to change your opinion as it might be pointless.

[Giant Hamster]

I think you're all full of shit. Praise goatse!!!!