[Thanatos]

My parents and I are in the market for a new computer... That I can take with me to college. I've heard time and time again that Macs interface better with graphics programs... Which is why I'm looking at them for a new computer. Now my question is...

Does it make THAT big of a difference?

Also...

I was looking at Mac's website and it seems like all the hardware that you can add to your computer is old and extremely outdated. Like 1.4 ghz processor... WTF?

Is it the OS that interfaces better? Could I just build my own pc and install the Mac OS on it?

Would would you guys suggest that I do?

[Dr. Bang]

I hope that you'll buy a Mac so you can learn a valuable lesson on how shitty it is.

I dont understand why its even exist now adays. Its VERY EXPENSIVE and SLOW, The only thing MAC is good at is their LCD monitor, the rest are CRAP. I can guarantee you, a $1000 PC machine can beat a $5000 MAC.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY IT?!

- Mmmmmmmm, its juz better mmmmkay. Now wherez my French wine and luxurious cheese. I mean like........hellloooooo.



GET YOUR BBQ OUT BECAUSE THERE"S GONNA BE ALOT OF FLAMES COMING OUR WAY.
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[soogarrush]

im waiting for a 12" powerbook laptop. my first mac ever is coming next week . honestly i would never consider a mac desktop, but these powerbooks are irresistable. i couldnt tell you much about the interface yet, havent had extensive use on one...

anyway, to you second question you cant install osx on a x86 machine.

[Pat]

Wow, is this flamebait? In case someone wanders into this thread looking for an honest answer:

I use both Macs and PCs. To be honest, there's not a whole lot of difference between the two, especially if you're thinking of using it for digital painting. Photoshop works pretty much the same cross-platform, with only minor interface variations. Overall, the differences between the platforms may be important enough for you to pay the extra cash for a Mac, or to save some $$ and go for a PC.

First off, I can say without a doubt that the Mac OS is far more reliable than Windows. They both crash far too often for my tastes, but both Mac OS 9 and X require virtually no time-consuming reinstalls. Windows, on the other hand, ends up with some kind of fatal error requiring reinstallation every year to six months. My bare-bones Win2K box has had the OS resinstalled 2 times in the past year --once just because the OS couldn't cope with HD device driver from a previous motherboard. No choice but to format and reinstall. Missing DLLs, fatal OS errors, corrupt registries, conflicting ports, etc are all a very real part of Windows. On the other hand, I'm running OS9 on my Mac (patched from 8.6) on the original install that came from the factory over four years ago. I've NEVER had to reinstall my OS. That's a lot of abuse and hardware changes.

Second, Macs use Motorola Power PC chips in them, not Intel or AMD. These are the same chips used in high-end IBM servers, and generally are far more efficient processors. They consume far less power as well. They also tend to be a bit behind the curve as far as speed is concerned, but generally not too far. A 1.4 Motorola chip probably performs roughly the same as an AMD 1800, or 1.8 Ghz Intel. As the chips are usually paired as dual processors the real-world performance is usually just shy of the bleeding edge on a PC. In a recent After Effects test a dual 1gig Mac clocked in several seconds behind a 2.53 ghz P4. Motorola's chipsets also use what's known as the Velocity engine, which are banks of vector processors specifically designed to crunch certain types of data, so tasks like Photoshop filters, encoding MP3's, encoding DVD's, etc are easily 6-10 times as fast as on the PC.

The technological turn-over on PC's is very rapid, so you're likely to find more advanced implementations of cutting-edge features: faster DDR, 8X AGP, Serial Interface Devices, etc. The turn-around on Macs is a little slower, so currently you're looking at basic DDR, 4X AGP, ATA133. Fewer hardware choices on the Mac has an interesting side effect: all the hardware you can get is very well tested and truly plug and play. Part of the cost hike on Macs is that they include many built-in components that are "extras" on a PC. Gigabit ethernet, firewire 800, DVD Burner, etc. Also note that Macs have been traditionally strong in the cable connectivity department, being the first to implement both USB and Firewire. Macs also look nicer IMO, which for some users is a consideration.

Software goes hands-down to the PC. There's simply more choices. More crap too, but overall the situation is a lot brighter than the Mac scene. However, Macs come with an impressive suite of free software including iTunes, iDVD, iMovie and iPhoto. Internet browsing seems faster on me on the PC side. The 3D software scene on the Mac is under-developed, but Maya does run under OSX. Digital video software is probably the only area where Apple is dominant now, with some high-end contenders like the traditionally strong After Effects and newer NLEs like Final Cut Pro. Almost all Mac software uses a similar interface and keyboard command structure, minimizing learning time for applications. PC software is positively chaotic in comparison.


To surmise:


If you're looking for the absolute fastest overall machine possible, a PC is the right way to go. Be prepared to tweak, upgrade and reinstall. You have more options in hardware and software, but more regular problems with both. They're cheaper, but at the cost of reliability and your time. They're highly compatible, since 95% of the computers out there are Windows based.

If you're looking for a reasonably fast machine that will give you very little grief, is reliable, intuitive and aesthetic a Mac is the right way to go. Your hardware and software options are more limited and the initial cost is more expensive, but this is mitigated by a free, powerful and useful software suite, little need for upgrades after the inital purchase and a tight community.


-Pat

[Sukhoi]

Pat: You say you hane trouble with your OS's crashing on both platforms?
I bpought myself a new machine (pc) a year ago and I can't recall the last time win XP crashed on me........at work I work on mac's and am very happe being more or less 'fluent' with both platforms (and I actually would love a merge og all the good stuff from both worlds) and here the OS 9 crashes regularly.
On the other hand I've heard stories about the opposite aswell.

What I meant to say was that if you have the right pieces of information yo can build a VERY stable pc. If you buy a mac chances are that they've build a very stable system for you, but of course you can get a poorly engineered version, as with all technical things, resulting in an unstable machine.

You seem to be unlucky in the area of stable operating systems.

Sukhoi

[Pat]

Heh. Actually, both of my machines are very stable --especially around their core tasks: Painter and Photoshop. I think this month I've experienced only one hang (PC version of Painter) during some very heavy graphic use. But each machine has it's own quirks; my Mac likes to choke while internet browsing; quirky java can hose out Explorer and Netscape. My PC craps out when there's heavy sound driver access -my Soundblaster Live card leaves a lot to be desired.

When software crashes it's generally not too serious, I can force a quit/end task and I'm still in business. I attribute a lot of that behavior to crappy programming. However, my PC's Soundblaster problems are software/hardware-- resulting a blue screen of death. It's uncommon, but that it even happens at all irks me.

There's no question that if you know what you're doing you can get a stable machine. Bought or made. But it's a lot more tricky on the PC. Motherboard conflicts, driver conflicts, software conflicts etc. My friend installed a new graphics card and started crashing repeatedly. He reinstalled his drivers, then his games, and finally his OS before I told him it might be his power supply. Sure enough, 2 HD's, a CDRW, a DVD, his RAM and all his PCI cards were drawing too much voltage resulting in system instability. Now, this isn't a problem if you enjoy tinkering, but for people who are just looking to paint, browse or whatever, the fact you need to be part engineer or electrician to have a stable system is just a bit extreme. I've become knowledgeable about these things because I've had to, not because I wanted to. I shudder to think how much better a painter I might be if I'd spent that time on my artistic skills.

-Pat

[Sukhoi]

Powersupplies, yes. Important as hell.

i agree with you though. Regular people shouldn't have to know those things to get a stable computer. But as it is right now it pays to know atleast if you buy or put together a PC, I mean who would ever trust a salesman????!!!

Sukhoi

[Dr. Bang]

Pat, Painter is a little piece of shit software. It ain't PC's fault, its the programmer fault. Listen to this, i've NEVER has Photoshop crashes on me ONCE on windows XP.
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[faustgfx]

pat: for the sb live thing, http://www.kxproject.com

it's ghetto but it works. comes with its own decent mixer and crap, which is nice, since i nmy last two win2k and one winxp installs (different systems hardware wise btw) i have not been able to successfully launch things like creative's surround mixer or eax control panels. kx doesn't have eax stuff (duh, no shit, since it's creative's thing) but otherwise it has worked decently. i installed it on winxp pro. though, to make it work perfectly, remove the sblive from your pc, remove all traces of creative's software, including a safety sweep through your registry, put card back in, let xp/k install its own core drivers, run kx setup, boot, done.

the only quirk i've found from kx's mixer (latest stable release for the drivers and mixer) so far is that sometimes after boot i have to click and adjust (e.g. move the sliders and put them back to where they were) the volume so it'll actually be what you have set it to. no big deal if you boot every few weeks or something. :P i haven't been brave enough to try the latest alpha/beta releases.

of course if your creative software works properly, it isn't worth installing.. but if you're experiencing some problems (such as not being able to install drivers or software, or if you somehow get them to work, it'll never run. the only way i have been able to install the drivers and software successfully has been by installing win 2k, sp2, dx 8.1, then drivers, then audiohq/mixer/stuff, then upgrading to winxp pro so i can actually run them.. and that has worked _once_. i fucking loathe creative and regret i've bought a sb live digital 5.1 whatever the hell it is 6 channel with digital out thing.)

but yeah. stuff. the problem is very ultimately unlikely to be your actual sb live card, it's the fucking shitty drivers and software. in the last few days i have made many people happy with kx drivers who have had the same "issues" that i have had.. software not running or installing or whatever.

not to mention trying to find drivers from creative's websites in the first place.. up till this day the only place i've found drivers for my sblive chipset is the cd that came with the card. i have had partial success with creative's all-in-one driver pack. and i'm using the word "partial" very loosely here...

sorry for a post that wasn't flaming, won't happen again.

oh, edit, i just have to say, winxp taking 63 megs of ram after boot is nice :P it pays off to keep your registry clean, services under control and minimal, and seeing what processes are alive after boot.. not to mention 100% stability. the way i have made xp work perfectly for me is that i install win2kpro, service pack 2, dx 8.1, video card drivers, wacom driver, winamp, possibly video codecs etc. then i remove every damn minesweeper and whatever crap program that isn't needed, then get rid of useless services. then i update it to winxppro and do the service cleaning again. my xp even runs faster and with less resource hogging than win2kpro ever did now. dunno how it happened, i'd say black magic and good karma. not to mention jupiter's align in relation to mars and earth's moon..
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[soogarrush]

[Thanatos]

Alright, umm... After reading all this I'm considering just building my own PC, even after reading all of the pro mac stuff. However I think that'll suit my needs best. Most of all because I don't know or understand the Mac OS. But that isn't my major problem with it. It's the speed thing, and I still want to play video games on my pc, and not just Blizzard games. (Granted they're really cool)

Although I'm not a tech guy, my brother is getting into IT, so I'll probably get him to fix up my pc. The one he just built is working perfectly, I'm going to install photoshop on it and test it out. If everything works how I want it to I might just stick with the pc.

[B0b]

[Dr. Bang]

[faustgfx]

hello dorks, its "grammar"
_________________
"hey, wanna dance?"
"do i look like kevin costner to you?
"..no you don't"
"i don't dance with wolves either."

[bearsclover]

I think Pat gives a very accurate account of Mac vs. PC.

I, too own both Mac and PC. I do admit, my PC is on the "cheap" side (though I did buy it new, just a few months ago). I like Windows XP much better than Windows 98, which I was using before. But I do not like it nearly as much as I like OS X. (But, just to be clear here, I like XP well enough, and I'm glad I got the PC.)

But, there have been problems with my PC, (probably its cheapness is mostly to blame). The thing that irritates me is that XP wants to hold my hand too much. Oh, I'm sure if I spent a lot of time tweaking XP it'd not be as irritating, but I don't have the time to do that. I am not a "power user", I don't want to tweak and tinker with my computer�I just don't care about getting super-geeky. As it is, it works, sort of. I have to worry about viruses with it, I have to keep updating it, and right now it's behaving funky. But hey�that's OK, because my Mac's working just fine.

OS X is a very stable, elegant (yes, that word�"elegant") Unix-based OS. I didn't think I'd like the transition from OS 9 to OS X, but I don't miss OS 9 all that much. (By the way, OS 9 had "extension conflicts". OS X does not.) I prefer the interface in OS X, and I like the fact that when I'm ready for it, I can go "under the hood" with OS X and see what all this "Unix" stuff is about. (If I ever get in the mood! Who knows when that will be?)

I also noticed (and this is pure antecdotal) that my supposedly much faster PC runs Photoshop a teensy bit slower than my Mac. Even though my Mac is about 1/3 as "slow" (if you went by MHz numbers, which you are really not supposed to do). This is because Photoshop 7 can use the Altivec engine, someting that is in the G4 chip. (I am totally not being technical here, but I hope you get my drift.) Because Photoshop runs so fast with Altivec, and because Altivec is G4-only, my Mac has an "edge" over my PC. Even though in everything else, it's a bit slower. (Not that much slower, but yeah. Slower.) Since I work in Photoshop a great deal of the time, I think this is great.

Just one more thing I'd like to say to the Mac-haters who bleat on about the expense: Money isn't everything. If I like working on an OS more, if I have less headaches, less troubles, less "intrusive" bullshit, the extra expense is WORTH IT. Sometimes you get what you pay for. I still can't figure out why some people look at me as if cost were the only element worth considering in a computer purchase. The total experience for me, not just cost, are what counts. After all, I pay for the computer once�I will be working on it for at least a couple of years. A few more bucks so I enjoy those couple of years is, (once again) WORTH IT.
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[B0b]

oh yeah the other killer for me was that XPress 5 isn't native to Mac OS 10

[Frog]

Amusing how going "under the hood" on a Mac is a good thing, but on a PC it's geeky...

That isn't meant to provoke you Bearsclover, it just illustrates that everyone gets very partisan on this issue and all the arguing is just posturing really. Those of us who have a preference have made our minds up long ago and aren't about to change them. Why bother even arguing? It gets ugly all too quickly and is completely pointless.

The archives are already full of such arguments, why clutter them even more?
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[Dr. Bang]

[Gort]

Bearsclover...now there's a name I haven't seen in a while. How you doin'? Those PC jerks at work still giving you a hard time?

I've been using Win2k since it's introduction on the market, and I have never had a whole system crash. Now I have had software go a bit bonkers on me here and there, but it was nothing that a simple task close and app restart didn't fix.

As for WinXP Pro I can say the same on my laptop; I've had that thing for about 9 months now, and it's never, ever once let me down. I don't understand Apple's claim that PCs are problematic when trying to recognize media devices. I've plugged in 4 different digital cameras and 2 different mini DV cameras, and everytime XP saw the devices right away and prompted me for "tasks".

Maybe those "Switchers" were using Win98 boxes. Who knows?

[Ragnarok]

When you start downloading programs and installing demos from free magazine's cds your system becomes unstable. But that happens with Macs and Pcs. The difference is that there are many more of those cds and programs for Pc.

Oh, and WinXP is much more stable than any other OS Pcs have seen in the last years. I mean, I haven't seen a BSOD in months, and I like to install lots of crappy things. =)
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Seigetsu

[Pat]

faustgfx, thanks for the heads up on the drivers. Creative Labs must be staffed by students from the short bus because their software companents are always riddled with problems. I used the drivers from the CD (what was I thinking?!) and this is priceless: just like you indicated, it didn't even work. Who in their right mind would release software that just didn't function? Well, other than Microsoft. Thank goodness there's an alternative.

-Pat

[bearsclover]

[Gort]

[bearsclover]

Gort, I wasn't ranting at you. I do know that you know it's not your money:

[Frog]

For the last time:

THIS IS BORING


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[faustgfx]

yeah. make your winxp or 2k look like macos9 or osx with windowblinds and a bunch of icons and it'll be the same thing.

i thought osx was more freebsd/linux-like under the fancy window manager?

also, frog, your fucking mother is boring. thanks the for the color though!
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"hey, wanna dance?"
"do i look like kevin costner to you?
"..no you don't"
"i don't dance with wolves either."

[Frog]

[Dr. Bang]

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm

http://www.adobe.com/motion/pcpreferred.html

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[B0b]

init bang

[spline]

Don�t buy a Mac, they are slowly dying...Its a misstake to by a Mac today. I�m not against Mac. But today they dont have more graphic programs. In fact is probably the opposite. There is so much more programs for the PC, more hardware etc...

Mac is going to die just like Amiga and Atari did, its just a matter of time...