[retard]

I plan to make a living in art. I've given up on the attractive idea of a computer related job, (and the starting salary of 70k), and totally dedicated myself. I'm aware the road ahead isn't paved with gold (from what I gather, Spooge Demon isn't rich, and if he isn't rich, there isn't much hope for me) But I need to know, so that I can brace myself now for the life of bake beans and dead rat, drinking vodka to forget my wife whored herself to pay the rent, what I can expect.... money wise. Lets say I'm good (hypothetical), not a legendary master, just competitively good. And I am a 2D illustrator

Q What is the likely amount I will be making?
Q Where is the money? Concept design?
Q Is 2D the way to go? Most game companies seem more interested in 3D?
Q Is there ever such a thing as a steady salary for artists?
Q Are most of the artists here employed?
Q How many of you are alcholics?

Well if I end up living in a boxcar I can always hang myself. You gotta keep those options open

[eyewoo]

There is a whole bunch of 2D illustration outside of the game and comics world... You might think about broadening your horizons...
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[Socar MYLES]

Q What is the likely amount I will be making?

A Varies wildly, depending how fast you work, and who you're working for. The RPG illustration market is cheap. Comics are slightly better. Computer games can pay between peanuts and excellently. Mainstream book illustration pays nicely, and movie posters can pay several thousand a pop. At the beginning of your illustration career, if your skills are average, you can expect to make around $2,000 per month.

Q Where is the money? Concept design?

A Graphic design pays quite nicely, in fact, as does industrial design. Editorial illustration is also quite lucrative. However, there's no one place to look for "the money". I make a tidy sum painting people's dogs and cats, for instance--you, on the other hand, may not want to do that. Payscales in most illustration markets vary hugely depending on your skill and level of experience.

Q Is 2D the way to go? Most game companies seem more interested in 3D?

A No idea. I don't work for game companies that often.

Q Is there ever such a thing as a steady salary for artists?

A Yes. If you freelance, you can take on as many jobs as you need to fill your salary expectations per month. If you are a staff artist, you'll usually either get a fixed salary or be "fed" enough work to keep you afloat on a constant basis. If you advertise yourself well and don't work on projects with unreliable people, you never need to be without money.

Q Are most of the artists here employed?

A Not a clue. I'm employed, though.

Q How many of you are alcholics?

A Again, haven't the faintest. But I'm not a boozer.
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Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[Frog]

There are many fields in which you can make a very good living as someone who produces artwork or illustrations, just be aware that Sijun only represents a very small portion of the possibilities that exist in the wider world. Sijun tends to concentrate on the games/fantasy/scifi end of things, and although there are quite a few professionals posting here the majority of users are not pros.

Seiously though, if you want to be rich take up accounting. I don't know anyone who does art with an eye to becoming a millionaire, you need a different sort of motivation altogether and if you don't love what you do then it won't happen for you. Having said that it is possible to make an awful lot of money, particulalry if you work for advertising or packaging. For instance doing ad campaigns can land 10-20k per job, same goes for other high profile jobs such as the movie posters Socar mentioned. Some illustrators are very rich indeed and talent isn't necessarily a good indicator of who makes the most money, business sense and the nature of the jobs you take on will be the more important factors. You might not fancy the idea of drawing appetising looking oranges to go on a juice carton for instance, but those who do make a huge amount of money.

I'll try and break down the various possibilities that I know of, as they apply to the UK:

Games: usually in house, positions from 2d texturing and 3d modelling to concept artists and animators, some other 2d work such as 2d bagrounds or mattes for cinematics. Bigger houses might also uses lighting artists. You may well be expected to be competent over several disciplines in smaller teams. Pay is good, about the same as the equivalent for programmers and other qualified jobs.

Production work, films, TV adverts etc: again many positions are available, concept art, texture artists, modellers, animators, painters, compositors, flame or after fx artists, storyboards etc... Standards are usually higher than in games (but not always), positions are usually short term or freelance but there are still a few full time employees in the bigger outfits. You are usually required to specialise and be very competent. Pay is excellent.

Illustration: this is usually freelance (almost always) and harder to define but encompasses editorial, publishing, packaging and advertising illustration. You have to promote yourself and income is hugely variable but can potentially be the highest of all with some people making 6 figure sums routinely. A handful can make even more than that with licensed characters, products or very succesful books. Editorial and publishing tend to pay the least well, advertising and packaging the most.

There are also other possibilites which aren't as well known, for instance advertising agencies and manufacturers often use marker artists for visualisation (very well paid), newspapers also have graphics departments to produce their news graphics, television stations employ animators to make animated graphics etc... You could also go in via the design world where some opportunities exist for illustration on websites, magazines or brochures etc (although most illustrations are comissioned externally some people don't have the budgets for that).

I would also add to Socar's comment that how fast you work isn't necessarily that important, you can make quite a lot by doing very little if you are in a high paying field... Also the best paid illustrators are also very business minded, and are very aware of opportunities and markets. Sometimes being good is less significant than being shrewd, as unattractive as that may sound it is the reality.

The most important things you need to succeed are determination and perserverance, these are more important than raw talent and work rate IMO.

Good luck anyhow
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[Socar MYLES]

Yeah, the main reason I mentioned speed is that, especially at the beginning of your career, you may sometimes have to take on a lot of jobs to make a decent sum of money. If you want to start in the RPG illustration industry, for instance, which is VERY easy to break into (anyone can do it), you might have to do 6 or 7 full-colour pages, or even more grayscales, to bring yourself up to $2,000 per month (which is probably about the minimum you can live on).

In some non-entry-level jobs, like matte painting, I have heard that you may often be required to work under very tight deadlines as well. I'm not familiar with the matte painting market, but it seems logical that speed WOULD be important there.

To start with, you'll probably need to be able to turn out an illustration a day if you are only of average skill. If you don't throw yourself into the art field full-time until you've really refined your skills and built up a decent-sized client base, of course, you won't have to do anything like that.
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Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[gArGOyLe^]

Very informative

just a semi-noob type question.. When you say RPG.. do you mean role playing game? or.. does that stand for something else? I would expect it to stand for something else.. hehe.. eek.. sorry for the slightly off topic question.

*ducks*

[Socar MYLES]

No, you guessed right--RPG stands for role-playing game.

I would never have thought of that market either, but before I got into freelance art full-time, I had the job from hell. I don't mean the McDonald's type job from hell either, or one of those lawyerly-type corporate hell jobs. I mean the shite-encrusted, foul-smelling job sprung STRAIGHT from the deepest bowels of HELL! I even had a boss who'd sit there DURING WORKING HOURS picking at the nasty pustules on her legs. (Too much information?)

Anyway, one day I quit the job from hell. The picking boss got up my nose one time too many, so I got up and left, never looking back. Unfortunately, this meant that I could no longer sit around drawing and daydreaming about the day when I'd become a famous comic-book artist like Frank Miller (or at LEAST get a comic published, dammit!). I had to make some money...and fast.

So I revamped my crappy website, stuck up a "hire me" page, and the first person to come along and see it was this guy Lewis from Misguided Games (www.misguidedgames.com). He wanted forty grayscale illos for his book. I always liked role playing games as a kid, although I haven't had much time to play them since then...so I was all too eager to take his offer. (Not to mention which, my savings were becoming rather dented.)

These days, I do mostly non-RPG work. But I still think it's fun, and often do it when it's on offer, or for practice. Right now, I'm working on some RPG illustrations so I can practice painting dynamic figures. Yes, I did mention up front that I wanted to be hired so I could practice--I'm not being a jerk or anything. I'm thinking of applying to a couple of the bigger RPG-related companies some day soon (WOTC and White Wolf in particular), and when I do, I'd like to be able to show 'em I can paint people doing something other than sitting/standing there looking forbidding!

Wow, that turned into quite a novella, there.

Sorry to hijack the thread, guys.
_________________
Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[retard]

Hot damn! (retard does a little jig) This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for! (Socar, I am a big admirer. Your advice is greatly appreciated!)

My original dream was to illustrate books. You say that pays nicely? How hard is it to break into? Are RPGs a good springboard into illustrating books? You say the RPG market is very easy to get into. Is there really that much demand for it? Can a fellow find someone wanting 6 or 7 full color pages a month? I imagine starting out, most employers are small groups like misguided. Should you go looking for them, or will they find you by your site? And if you make it to the wotc level, is the pay much better?

RPG's sound attractive at my level, book illustration sounds attractive for later. Heres a plan, but I don't know if it's a good one. Spend several months building a portfolio/webpage/resume, taking "we can't pay you now" jobs for practice. Then work my way into the poor paying, but very fun RPG market until I have enough experience to have the book illustration hiring guys take me seriously.

One last question, I know a degree is good no matter what, but how much does it affect the pay/marketability (is that a word?). Or is it all skill/experience?

[bM]

Interesting questions.. and answears.
Although im not selling art or paintings itself i might have some interesting notes.

I have my own company that does basically everything. Computer support hardware/software, design, programming, web design and such.
I started it -98 when i was in school. Since 2000 i've runned it fulltime and
i make a decent saluary if i work... the problem is that i got "burned out" around 2001 so i don't work more than 2-3 hours day. Anyhow if i work as much i have this month, (time to pay taxes then i get 4000$. and 3000$ next month. But this changes month to month, so it's hard to budget

Anyhow this month i have two homepages, design, programming, database and administration script to manage the whole site. One site takes like 2-3 weeks with everything. It's kind of art, design. And sometimes you need to illustrate, make logos, buttons and etcetera for homepages aswell.


But if want to work as a freelancer then the most important thing to do if you want to succede is to get a network of clients. Get a good reputation, let satisfied clients talk for you. let them bring you new clients.
If you get a good network then it's most likly that you have a good chance in the business. Whatever your work is.

How good can a network become?
Well it depends, i had the fortune on stumbling across the correct client business. My first client had a work where he consulted and trained companies to sell better and get better at sales and such.. Many of his clients didnt have homepages and he gave them my name..
Now i have about 8 different consultants like above...
I have never called to look for a job since -98, they call me


Make good art, make advertisement about you and your skill.
Make your clients happy and satisfied, give them extra if possible.
It's the little things.. For instance, you made a job and you want 2400$ for it. + the extra work for sending it too them or broadcasting it. don't add like 100$extra on the side.. instead calculate it into the first prize.. and 99$ is always MUCH less than 101$ .

Hmmf, sorry if this is totaly fucked up..
But perhaps it helps someone.


I'm slowly adding paintings as a service to my clients..


Take care.
_________________
Sincerely
- Nicklas Forsberg a.k.a bM
- http://www.nalf.se

[Socar MYLES]

Sorry I didn't reply to your questions right away, retard (man, that sounds rude! Did you register the name 'retard' just so everyone would have to sound rude when addressing you? Just joking around--don't take offense!)

Anyway, breaking into the mainstream book illustration market doesn't happen overnight. Even if you are a real genius, usually you have to work for it. The RPG market, however, is definitely a good springboard--not because RPG-book references are particularly impressive in and of themselves (although a reference from WOTC, for instance, is never a bad thing!)--but having worked in any illustration field and proven that you can work with art directors and meet deadlines is a definite asset. The more repeat clients you can point to, the more impressed potential employers are going to be. And the RPG market is a great place to pick up repeat customers. See, these guys don't just make ONE book--they do a core book sort of deal, then some supplements which have...well, supplemental material for the core book. They tend to want a consistent feel on each series they do, so they will often keep returning to the same artists (assuming you don't screw 'em!)

It is very easy to do 6-7 full-colour pages per month, although you may not get them all from one company. A good place to get work is on the RPG.net forums ( forum.rpg.net , I believe.) They have a freelancer section where you can post your art, and sometimes employers post job ads. You can write to them and take those jobs if you feel like it. If I want to practice doing a particular kind of drawing, that's where I go to let publishers know about it. That's how I got people to hire me to practice painting action scenes, in fact.

I haven't personally worked for WOTC yet, but I know several people who have, and they pay a LOT better than almost anyone else. Obviously, there's a lot of competition for their money, but you can keep trying if they don't hire you the first time you ask.

You can just let publishers come and find you--that's what I did to start with--but eventually you'll want to do work you feel like doing instead of what people are randomly hiring you for. These days, I look around to see what publishers are doing work I think looks cool, and then I hit them up for jobs (or answer their help-wanted ads). In a way, it's BETTER to pick your own jobs than just let them find you, because that way you'll get to choose jobs you know you can do really well, and which will take your career in the direction you want it to go in. When I started, I didn't have the confidence to ask for jobs--I wasn't really quite ready to be a professional illustrator yet (technique-wise), so I jumped all over every offer like a ravenous rodent. But now that I improved my technique, I'm a lot more relaxed about applying for jobs.

I think your plan for your own career is very good except for one thing--unless you are a rank amateur with a LONG way to go on your technique, you don't need to do pro-bono work. You can jump right into the lower end of the RPG-publishing market. Start with the PDF publishers who only want grayscale art and aren't handing out much money, then work your way into the basement-press print publishers, and on upwards from there. While you're doing RPG stuff, make friends with as many writers as you can--not necessarily RPG writers, but ANY writers. They may be able to help you get mainstream book illustration work later on--especially in the children's market where some books are collaborations between a writer and an artist, rather than written books to which an artist is later assigned.

As for the degree...well, nobody's ever asked to see mine. It's a bit disappointing, really--all those years in art school, and NOBODY CARES! It's in more technical fields like industrial design and web/graphic design that your degree may become useful. In illustration, if your portfolio is bad, no amount of education is going to help you.
_________________
Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[egerie]

[retard]

Socar, you are wonderful! I've spent a long time looking for this type of information, and found answers to all my questions at once. It is very sad about your degree. I looked forward to going to school, but the evidence says 4 years could be better spent. Oh well, I'll probably go anyway.

Retard is my actual nickname. I've earned it, I'm told, because I regularly do things that only someone with a dimished capacity would. (I hope no one takes it as a crack at people who really are disabled) Personally I like it.

[retard]

egerie, my brothers roommate started out making more than my dad after 40 years in the government. Don't think about it! Don't think about it!