[Rat]

Instructions:
click link
read article
give thoughts
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/07/28/IN244190.DTL

[Snorkles]

Old George is just a puppet doll. We all know that.
But as far as terrorists are concerned I just think its great if someone took care of decmposing those sons of a bitches. In my humble opinion.
(By the way, I'm not really in to politics, I'm just a easy manipulated bastard. I just felt like expressing something. Please throw me in the garbage can.)

[[Shizo]]

Saying he gonna kill all terrorists is like saying he'll kill all homosexuals. It's impossible. He can always declare some country as having terrorists and go there without asking anybody.

[Vesuvius]

it's all just a little bit of history repeating....

"...of course the people don't want war....Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship...the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country (pp. 255-256) ...Education is dangerous...Every educated person is a future enemy"

Hermann Goering,
Reichsmarschall and Lufwaffe-Chief
President of the Reichstag during the reign of Hitler.
From Gilbert, G.M. (1947). Nuremberg diary. New York: Signet.

--------------------------

fun fact, after doing a bit of research it seems that the 'julius caesar' quote regarding patriotism is something someone made up and spread on the web via emails and messageboards, but it doesn't seem to have any basis in reality.
(the make believe quote is as follows:
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. � Julius
Caesar)

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[iByrn]

I hope our government does turn out like the one in 1984, so I can be a tragic hero and die fighting them. Better than being bored.

[Coaster]

I've seen this too many places.
Glad I live in Canada none the less...

[Jabo]

I'd even go a step further than Coaster, I'm PROUD not to be an US-American, living in a country of "freedom" and "peace", while in other countries, 20 guests of a wedding are killed by a "misled" cruise missile, thrown by those US-"heroes"...

I think the matter of fact that an US-Americanpresident only has 4 years to realize their aim makes people like Bush think that they have to do something spectacular in order to become a good president (besides the fact that he's a damn bastard). Why can't the USA just keep their fingers crossed and let things be, or at least let someone else do the job of foreign de-escalation. They always have to interfere, thinking they are the only one whose job is to spread "freedom"...

I don't wonna say that I hate US-americans, I like them, I just don't get their blind confidence into people like Bush, a war-lecherous dictator!

There are some really striking similarities to what happened to my country in the 30s, the only difference is that in Germany, the mood was bad because of bad conjuncture, while the US, being one of the worlds wealthiest industrial states should have more time and judgement to choose...

[Nilwort]

quote

Quote:

Office of Strategic Influence to provide false news and information abroad to help manipulate public opinion and further its military objectives

I hate Bush, I really do...and the other older Bush, so my opinion's probably biased...When the united States was first formed I'm betting that the president had a lot more control and involvement, Now it just seems like he's a silly representation of the whole united states government compressed into an easily comprehendible person so the media can point at him and go "Look everyone, it's our government, project all your opinions about how our country operates on this single human being and it will perfectly justified becaues he IS the United States of AMERICA!" Hmm...I think I just contradicted myself...

Don't get me wrong, I love the United States, but not more than any other country that I could've been born in, most of the people here are itiots, and it's horribly annoying to see people driving around these wastefull SUVs and stuff, but I guess that's the beauty of our country, everyone has the freedom to be itiots or in my case, to be jaded, cynical, observers of it all complaining about things they can't change...

[Jabo]

I've borrowed George Orwell's 1984 right this day and gonna read it this month. The first pages look promising, let's see what this "masterpiece" of literature brings to my mind...

It's pretty tough to comment on the USA as a German, everytime I said something about the US, I just got words like Nazi or Adolf or similar. Why is this? I mean, about 2 years ago I was on that forum and I said something like "I don't like the US", and I got thousands of answers dealing just with Hitler and the Nazis. Man, I was born almost 40 years after WW2, what impressions must be going on in the heads of some of those people telling me that I killed jews?

I've even heard about US schoolbooks saying that stuff like Hitler was still reigning Germany. Stuff like that makes me feel sick when I even think of the USA...

[Aber]

Jabo: Man, that sucks. Believe me, America has it's idiots (most of them), but it also has a good stock of people who are aware of you're country history, and those same people are the ones who do not appreciate what it's president is doing. America's goverment just thinks it has a really big dick and wants every other country to kneel down and suck on it.

[iByrn]

read in the anarchist article:
"we all in our own way are attempting to bring this horrific ten thousand year reich to its fucking knees."

It's propaganda, but it raises some good points. I agreed with a lot of it.

[gigatron]

Wow... that is an awesome comparison i agree to it very much, most americans seem to stick to ignorance (dont wana generalize not all americans are blinded by media and such...) but damn thats a good article heh, bush sux burn in hell he will! Glad i live in canada!

[Aber]

When you say "Glad I live in Canada" do you mean "Glad I live in a perfect country with no problems"? or "Glad I don't have to worry about world affairs" or "Glad I'm happy-go-lucky". Hmm

[sacrelicious]

It sickens me to think that so many people in this country support Bush--- I think the actual number is smaller than reported by the media, but no one wants to speak out publicly against the current administration for fear of seeming "unpatriotic" or "traitorous."

I'm beginning to feel that for allowing these war- and terror-mongers to continue such practices, the American public deserves whatever consequences arise. The true greatness of America is crumbling- freedoms that are being revoked, wealth that is dissolving, compassion and trust for fellow man that is being eroded by government- and media-fuled paranoia/propoganda. Soon, I fear, the American Empire will tumble and fall like all empires before, and take many, if not all, of us with it.

[xXxPZxXx]

Look at what is going on, corporations that nobody ever thought would have a bad day crumbling in to bankrupcy every day. these corporations have such a profound impact on the rest of the economy it is dragging everything down.

Things are very bad, (unless you are the ones making the bombs, or supplying us with oil) Nobody can say it though because that would lead to hysteria. But don't worry our president is going on vacation so it can't be THAT bad. right?

-PZ-

[sacrelicious]

Here is a link to an interesting piece written shortly after September 11th from the Anarchist perspective. It is long, but well thought out and for the most part level-headed. Read it, or at least part of it, if you have some time to spare.

Be warned, the hosting website has info on synthesizing drugs and various other illegal practices. If you are at work you probably won't want to go to this site. However, if you are looking to grow magic mushrooms or read about conspiracy theories then this is the site for you!
http://www.totse.com/en/politics/anarchism/165725.html

[Gort]

If you think that America will ever become a true totalitarian state as illustrated in Orwell's 1984, you're dreaming. It's as utopian in concept as a perfect peaceful world where all countries and races live in peace and harmony.

Wake up.

Some Americans are smarter than you think and would never let it happen. Ever.

By the way, it's a helluva better country than Canada...and Germany too, so just stay where you are.

[iByrn]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Carter:
It's as utopian in concept as a perfect peaceful world where all countries and races live in peace and harmony.

---

In concept. What's your point?

Perspectives differ. Some people don't think it's such a great country.

[Gort]

Utopian...

quote:

---

1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of a utopia; especially : having impossibly ideal conditions especially of social organization
2 : proposing or advocating impractically ideal social and political schemes <utopian idealists>
3 : impossibly ideal : VISIONARY <recognised the utopian nature of his hopes -- C. S. Kilby>
4 : believing in, advocating, or having the characteristics of utopian socialism <utopian doctrines> <utopian novels>

---

...meaning that it will never, ever likely happen. It isn't a perspective either; it's common sense.

Now from a "perspective" viewpoint:
I'll be the first to tell you that America isn't a perfect country; nothing is perfect, and I never said it was, but America does have some greatness to it. For those outside of America, you're entitled to your view, and to those inside America, you're not only entitled to your view, but you have the right to voice it - open and loudly if you choose in any non-detrimental fashion you choose.

[iByrn]

Sorry, I missed the full meaning of "utopian". You're saying that the totalitarian state described in 1984 is a utopian concept, meaning that it's too perfect of a totalitarianism state to exist? This I can agree with.
But I don't think the article literally means that America is going to become exactly like Oceania. It's saying we may become more like it, which is entirely possible.

[Gort]

quote

Quote:

It's saying we may become more like it, which is entirely possible

Well anything is possible - almost, but I will maintain that we will never become more like it. There are too many political divisions and processes within American culture which can and will prevent such a thing from ever occurring. If it ever did occur, then America, America defined by its current principles of liberty, etc., will cease to be. There are too many of us, and we are arnmed (as our forefathers would want us to be if such a situation ever came up).

Orwell knew his story was far fetched, but his intent was to clearly illustrate the potential for the principle of the setting in the story. He also wanted to illustrate that the motos for the state in 1984 were easily applicable to the present.

If you haven't already, I strongly suggest you read Anthony Burgess's 1985.

[Vesuvius]

Oh come on Tom, did you read the article? the points in it are all true. they are locking people up FOREVER (or indefinitley at least) on the word of the accuser "he's an enemy combatant"- no evidence needed. A judge ruled the evidence had to be presented- the ruling was stayed twice then IGNORED, they just let the deadline for releasing info go by and did nothing.

the amount of joe shmoe spies bush wants in the US is greater proportionally than the amount of stasi in germany was. they've already held thousands, 95% of which had NO CHARGES LEVELED AGAINST THEM, for upwards of 8 months. their justification: until we're sure they're not terrorists we can't risk letting them go (in other words, innocent 'til proven guilty went bye-bye in this case as well as in the tribunals and the enemy combatants). These informants in Tips are everyday people, the same everyday people who earlier these past few months kicked people off their flights for being arabic and making them feel uncomfortable, and who ratted (this past month) on some 'suspicious' 'arabs' who turned out to be circus performers who were INDIAN. despite being so wrong, the government escourted their airliner down with fighter jets and interrogated these people with the FBI. they're tracking all the courses foreigners are taking in our country so that they can be aware of who is studying things that can be used for terror, like CHEMISTRY (that is a quote, they said that chem students would be suspect). Right now they've suspended the Visas of a number of Palestinian cancer survivors who were invited to Beth Israel Hospital in Boston to an Israeli/Palestinian conference because of our stance on the middle east (I know, my mom is involved with their cancer patient services, and is a cancer survivor). They've given the FBI the power to circumvent almost all basic liberties we have, they can spy on email with no warrant, can (with a warrant they only need to address their immediate superior regarding, no longer is higher-up approval needed) raid your home while you are gone, plant bugs, and leave without ever alerting you. they can now spy on churches and political organizations with impunity, something which has been banned since CONTELPRO. They are opening files on everyone in congress and investigating them all currently. Bush is preparing to invade another country with no current justification, and despite saying he will exhaust all diplomacy first, has made no attempt to even discuss the multiple proposals brought forth recently by Iraq. The White House has effectivley canceled a TV show which was critical, by saying that Americans "need to watch what they say, watch what they do... This is not a time for remarks like that. It never is" (PS- the whitehouse transcript omits much of the threats from Fleischer despite the New York Times and other publications having recorded their occurance) and that there was no time when it is acceptable to criticize in that manner. Those who fund the network then threatened to remove funding if he didn't immediately apologize, and even with it they canceled him.

the above is a tiny, tiny portion of the horrible things being done, and it is all true. try as you like to justify it by saying "we're better than Nazi Germany", but being better than something and being good or just are two different things. We are going downhill FAST, and the majority of the American people don't know or care, or take the attitude "the only people affected are guilty" or "the only people affected are dirty arabs who probably deserve it."

it's sick.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[Jabo]

"and the majority of the American people don't know or care"

I'd rather say they don't know how to care! Being accused all the time for things the States might have done or might be doing by many people (including me) of course let's millions of US-Americans think what the government wants them to think: That they are the only good isle of brave and good humans, swimming in an ocean of crime, injustice and that their only way is to defeat the rest of the world! On July 4th, most americans will set up a flag at the walls of their house. Do you know what would happen if I'd set up a German flag? I would be cursed by alot of people, including most US-americans!

Tom, when saying "We're better than Germany!", what do you think of when you think of Germany? A country ruled by hatred, hostility to foreigners, slavery and crime? Or a country of immense international wealth? WE (thinking of a german blue-collar) produce your cars, much of your comfort was invented by german people! Of course your people did so aswell, but where were your men when they split our country into 2 countries? "We had our war, let's take the stuff we need and return home!", that's coward!

Hitler's main idea was to eliminate the jews, which was of course a damn thing that should have been prevented (by the german people). But the other ideas where the same as in any other war: Taking over other countries or regions. Now tell me: What do you think of Vietnam? Did the armee of the USA help the people over there? Or did they kill more civilians than soldiers?

The US-strategy in war is to defeat their "enemy" (without having been attacked by the enemy before) and to leave, ignorating the consequences. Tell me, what's the difference between american wars and the Germans in WW2?

I just hope for all of you that there will never be a war against the States on YOUR ground, you will loose, cuz nobody will watch that shit going on anymore, allies will be made, may it be between Israel and Palestina, but I bet that someday, there will be a war in the US, and this time, it will not be fought between the US-folks, and this time, no one in america will win!

My 2 cents...

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jabo ]

[social drone]

most people might care, but they refuse to believe it. and if you get on your knees, smile, talk quietly, and use small words they can understand...they get angry at you for making them feel upset.

most people in the usa are morons. in the current political climate the concept of "live free or die" would and is considered liberal propaganda...
this country has fallen so far to the right...i wouldnt be suprised if they raised a confederate flag on the capital and declared victory.

if thomas jefferson or benjamin franklin was still alive, they would be advocating a direct line of action involving a musket and a certain selected leaders anus.
(make his ass look like his fathers face)

[Vesuvius]

Bush Senior's Father helped raise funds for the Nazis, bush junior has Nazi like ideas, hmmmm... coincidence or something more?

[Gort]

For the record...my point of view was not directed towards the specifics of the article but rather the comments of some in this thread.

quote

Quote:

try as you like to justify it by saying "we're better than Nazi Germany"

Excuse me? I never stated that; I suggest you read carefully before you go quoting me. I never stated "Nazi" at all, and that was not my intention.

Also let me add I've not used "dirty arab" or any other derogatory comment in this thread.

quote

Quote:

WE (thinking of a german blue-collar) produce your cars

Holy cow...I never noticed; my Nissan is a BMW, and my neighbors Jag is a a VW. Germany produces some of our cars. Produce our cars...lol! Some cars maybe...

quote

Quote:

much of your comfort was invented by german people

What are you talking about? Chairs? Pillows? The LazyBoy? What are you talking about? I have no idea...

quote

Quote:

what do you think of when you think of Germany? A country ruled by hatred, hostility to foreigners, slavery and crime?

Hatred? Germany has it's fair share of intolerate people. Slavery? Uh...that went out a long time ago, and no I don't think it's relative to present Germany. Hostility to foriegners? Clarify for me, but is it true that Germany does not have a law that allows the newborn child of Turkish (or any other nationality other than German) parents living in Germany citizenship by birth in Germany? Passive intolerance if you ask me. There are generations of "foreigners" in Germany that have no citizenship there. Am I incorrect?

quote:

---

On July 4th, most americans will set up a flag at the walls of their house. Do you know what would happen if I'd set up a German flag? I would be cursed by alot of people, including most US-americans!

---

Have you ever been to America on July 4th? I've seen on homes, cars, tshirts - German flags, Irish Flags, Union Jacks - all alongside American flags, and not just on the 4th but year round. My mom's side of the family is from the Rhine Valley; my brother loves German culture and has a German Flag alongside his American flag. American is in some ways a lot more tolerant than you think. I suggest you stop watching and believing what you see on TV and come pay us a visit.

As for the gist of the issue, I don't hate anyone or any place; I've been to Germany, France, Europe - nice place to visit but I don't want to live there.

To the rest of you, do not put words in my mouth nor quote me incorrectly - please.

salut!

[Aber]

Hate to say it but America is just a combination of every other country. So if you have a problem with America you have a problem with you're own country.

[Vesuvius]

my own country is America.

[Nilwort]

ok, I diddn't read any of the long lengthy posts above and I apologize if this was mentioned before, But on september 11th who diddn't anticipate that our country would have to lock down on security? If becoming slightly more like the world descirbed in 1984 is the price to pay for more security from terrorism, I'd say it's a neccesary evil...

*sips a cup of victory gin*

[Coaster]

Such a controversal thread went so long without bursting into flames and alas it finally does.

You can't deny that the US is slanting that way, we never said it would collapse into some sorta marxist hell hole, but its going in that direction

Look at the DMCA, and Bush's continuing failure to seperate church from state (cutting stem cell research), and the hypocrisy ("accepting" free trade, then the whole softwood lumber shit).

As well, its amazing how many people don't recognize the brilliant leadership skills of Hitler, or the resourcefulness of the al queda. Although Hitler's ethics where a _bit_ off, and the al queda is just, well stupid. the thing I agree with most in that article is the 'bulk' of americans blindly accepting an enemy just 'cause everyone else is.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Coaster ]