[Tiger Eaten]

Ever hear that theory that a human's ultimate goal in life is to achieve happiness? Well here is the dark side of that line of thought (maybe):


I had a conversation with an old friend over dinner last night and he told me he had a new theory about life. His theory is as follows:

"There is no such thing as kindness or love in this world. Everything that is done by humans is done totally for selfish reasons. If you search back far enough to what truely motivates people you will find that everything is done out of selfish self-serving desire."

Example: Your mother gives you a birthday present. (How could this be anything other than an act of kindness, I ask?)
According to my friend: She wants to make herself happy by feeling good about pleasing you. She wants to gain your favor and the favor of other members of the family by acting in accordance with the "Birthday Custom". She does not care for you at all in reality.

"Well.....maybe your mother....." I reply.


Example2:


My father is happy when I smile. Why is he happy? If I am happy then he feels happy and good about himself. He wants to feel happy and good about himself so he takes care of me. If caring for me did not make him feel happy then he would not care for me.


"Huh?" I say (looking around for the waiter)


Example3: Superman rescues a young girl from drowning. Why did he do it? He didn't want to see her die. Why didn't he want to see her die? He would feel bad if he did. Why did he save her then? So he would feel good about himself and life. Completely selfish.

I told my friend that he was "a small petty man, living in a small, cold square box of a life". I then ordered more beer.

Just a warning, he's out there right now and if you treat him kindly, it will do you no good. No good at all.

[Anthony]

Yes, that guy who takes a bullet in the forehead for a buddy just wants to feel good about himself. Even some atheists will do this. So then, they have no cause, other than just helping a friend in need, with no hope of reward or even time to feel happy about themselves. Your friend is baka

[Iyidin_Kyeimo]

I agree with your friend, and know someone who studies psychology and said exactly that some time ago. You can be 99.9% selfless, but not 100%.

[Rat]

I agree with Tiger's friend. People do things for their own satisfaction.

Canadian men's hockey team won gold!!!! 5-2!

[A.Buttle]

Did your homeboy just finish reading something by Ayn Rand?

Fucking determinism. So bitter.[/LIST]

[Sukhoi]

I agree with Tigers' friend, and had the same discussion with my girlfriend some time ago, hehe. Imagine that!!
However the story of the guy taking the bullet for his mate is a very interesting and challenging question to answer for a person of this belief.....�

I'm not a negative person, even if I believe that I do everything to please myself. I feel I have the insight to acknowledge this fact instead of being blind to my own ways, and I therefore feel more in touch with myself.

To sum up the discussion with my girlfriend:
I though she was being naive about her own ways, and she though I had a cold wiew of the human race.

Interesting.

Sukhoi

[Bump]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snorkles:
It's true that every man acts according to his own needs and yes, that makes him selfish. But love exists. You want as much love as you can get. You get love by giving love. It's selfish, but at the same time you help other people, so its like a perfect circle that goes round and round. None gets hurt by the fact that everyone is selfish. It's more like everybody wins on it, because of the human nature, which is that your prime goal in life is to get love, and you get it by giving it.

---

hahahaha common!!! wake up! none gets hurt? everybody wins? oh man... think about it, and (sorry to tell you this) love is not the ultimate goal of the human nature. Read Freud, Sartre, Camus; and then talk about it...


[edit]Didn't mean to sound agressive, sorry[/edit]

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Bump ]

[the_monkey]

wait till you have children. things change.

[Bump]

children? please don't get me started...

[Steven Stahlberg]

Exactly, the_monkey, you beat me to it.
Until my first child was born, I had no *idea* how deep and strong a single emotion can get.

Selfishness is me sitting here typing these stupid words on this stupid keyboard.
Un-selfishness would be if I got up and did something I find boring, but my kids love, like reading a book for them.

It's just a matter of definiton. You can call both of the above 'selfishness' if you like, I don't really care, but then communicating gets harder.

Ok, that's it, I'm off to read a book for my kids.

[Rat]

I wish MY parents were so nice. They never used to read to me. Still don't.

[-- Transcendent --]

Actually, I'm with tiger (not his friend) on this one. This is a compelling theory - but ... it can't be farther from the truth.

Don't get me wrong, cynicism disguised as charity does exist. When boy scouts does community service, for example, it's no act of charity - it's a mandatory to earn a badge. cynicism.

To go so far, however, as to say [i[all[/i] motivation for altruism is cynicism, however, is foolish.

Feeling good's the effect, not the cause, of a "good deed". Look at it like a litmus paper - if someone fails to feel good about his act of charity, then his motivations are questionable.

[Snorkles]

It's true that every man acts according to his own needs and yes, that makes him selfish. But love exists. You want as much love as you can get. You get love by giving love. It's selfish, but at the same time you help other people, so its like a perfect circle that goes round and round. None gets hurt by the fact that everyone is selfish. It's more like everybody wins on it, because of the human nature, which is that your prime goal in life is to get love, and you get it by giving it.

[wayfinder]

you have the choice to act upon your conscience or not. (so much about the superman thing)

[horstenpeter]

I once read a theory that all our actions are motivated by our lust for sex. It's pretty much the same thing, you are being kind because you hope that makes you attractive.
Because of this theory, they also claim that all commercials on TV are geared to make us believe that if we buy the product advertised, we will get more sex. I.e. you are using a washing powder to do your laundry that is better than your sexual competitors washing powder which makes you more attractive. Same goes for faster cars, sweeter candies, larger wacoms etc.
I think I agree to a large part, but I'm also with Snorkles, on this, the motivation doesn't matter because the benefit is there.

[strata]

I agree with the theory as well, but with a few changes to the semanthics... I believe all acts performed are selfish, but perhaps not for the reason of any specific reward. It's true that we can do things that may seem completely unselfish - (no offense) like Steven reading to his child - but I believe this is selfish in the way that this will serve Steven farther along in life. His kids will be able to say "Our father read to us a lot when we were young, he was great!" Thus Steven gets his reward from this seemingly unselfish act. People will think he's a great father, thus the purpose is served. I don't think you need a bigger reason than that... I help you clean up, you think I'm nice, end reward. Thus selfish.

So, I'd say that I believe everything is done selfishly on a very subconcious level with the sole reason that everyone wants to be liked.

And Steven, sorry for using you as an example, you will most likely argue that I know nothing of how you feel whilst reading to your child, and you're completely right =)

[edraket]

What a weird argument. When you look at it like that every action a person takes is selfish because they try to make their world better.
But hello..that is the foundation of our society and the survival of our species. We collaborate so we gain.
I don't see what is so bad about it.
If that is bad than everything in life is bad.

[Christian +]

Khalil Gebran was a very famous writer from my country, some of you might know him but for those who don�t, he was a painter and a writer.
He lived in the mountains of Mount Lebanon, surrounded by the very old trees called Cedars, some of which are 2500 years old. If you close your eyes, you can imagine what a serene village it is and smell the perfume of those trees.
One of his books is called �The Prophet� (by that I suppose he means The Christ). In it he speaks about Love, Good and Evil, Giving, Houses, Praying, Children, Work ...
I scanned some of the pages that could be in the interest of you guys.

[Christian +]

Oh the hell with Geocities.........
I'm starting to be fedup with this.
For those who couldn't see the pics here are their addresses:
page01
page02
page03

[fellipe]

I thought that i was the first one to create this theory. I completely agree with you. The best way to define the nature of men is to search for the essence. It�s only natural though, that we seek to fulfill our needs egocentrically. I guess is related with the fact that we are mortals, so we need to reach happiness as fast as possible (but we do it without thinking about it).

[strata]

just a reply to edrakets responce... the general concensus is that our most primal instinct is to carry on our genes, not the survival of the species. What we want is basically to shag and have kids so our families specific genepool doesn't die out.
Which is again, selfish =)

[Snorkles]

It is for the brain to decide what will gain it's body and what will not. The brain is not a super machine that knows everything and calculates things hyper fast.
IF a man takes a bullet for his comrade, he does it instinctively. He does it because of something that is very hard etched in his brain, something that he doesn't question. The brain has learned VALUES. MORALITY. HONOR. AND SO ON. The brain hasn't got the time to calculate what will happen if its body gets a bullet in the head. What the brain HAS time to acess, however, is basic instincts. Selfishness only occur when the brain has time to calculate things, and create options to choose from.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Snorkles ]

[Gimbal8]

Not exactly a new theory on life. Animal behavior is rife with these discusions since most behaviors in life ultimately deal with the passing on of ones genes. This includes protection of offspring. I don't recal learning of any truely selfless act in animals and I seriously doubt anyone can say they know of such a thing in humans (also animals of course).

Unfortunately people read stuff like this and don't want to think they are so programmed and may react strongly to such ideas. 'Selfishness' is a negative buzzword to us. But we need to understand that selfishness is not a bad thing. It certainly can be, but it doesn't have to be.

[Christian +]

Sorry for bothering again folks, but I'm new here and the pics I'm posting are not viewable because of some technical error from Geocities, so I'm trying again.
Here goes....

[Christian +]

And another one ....

[Rat]

Where, exactly did those come from? (what book, I mean).

[Coaster]

Just a shot in the dark...
'the prophet'?

[Rat]

Y'know, it *probably* is. I never read the title/author/chapter thing at the top of the page.

[Kaete]

It's a damn fine theory. But like most theories, it survives best in specialized environments --- such as cocktail parties where you'd rather argue about theories of the universe or human nature than how inedible the finger sandwiches are. Sadly, when these lovely theories get out in the harsh light of the real world, they're kind of... well, silly.

You can't argue that just because every act is based on "selfishness*" that there is no such thing as love or friendship. *Though in this case, your friend is using a pretty loose interpretation of selfishness. I sounds more like free will and the ability to make choices to me.

I feel happy or sad because chemicals rush through my body. But just because the chemicals are the basis of my emotion, does that mean I'm not really happy? If "selfishness" is the basis of love, does that mean love doesn't exist?

To put it another way --- just because something has bizarre underpinnings, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The chair I'm sitting on is just a bunch of atoms. But it also happens to be a chair.

Your friend wants things to be nice and simple. Human nature is so crazy that it's a real comfort to think you understand what it's *really* all about. But things are rarely that simple.

The philosopher says "There is no spoon."
The scientist says "the spoon is just a bunch of atoms."

You mother says "Oh, shut up about the spoon already and eat your soup!"

[Christian +]

Ohhhhhohoohohohoo Finally.....it works !!!
I've renamed the files extensions to *txt* instead of *jpg*.
Here's the third and last page.
Sorry again guys.