[Lunatique]

I came across this site:
http://www.sinomania.com

It is basically a propaganda tool developed by the communist Chinese government to tell the world that we are all wrong.

I was especially angry about how they said we don't know what really happened during Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989, and we have tried to make the Chinese government look bad by making things up.

Not only that, they also try to tell us that up and down China, people are sad and angry about the 9/11 terrorist incident.

FUCKING BULL SHIT. I was here during 9/11, and these fuckers were cheering that America got attacked! They were saying shit like, "Serves them right for being so arrogant and putting their noses where they don't belong."

I wrote the following, ready to hit "send" when my GF stopped me. She said, if you click that button, I might not see you again. The government can probably track your IP and then frame some crime on you and then throw you in jail. It wouldn't matter if you are American--they'll get you.

So, after thinking about it, I decided it's foolish of me to send my message to them when I still live here.

Anyways, this is what I wrote:

"I came across your website, and I'm dubious about its content. It is obvious you are running a website trying to defend China's many glaring faults/mistakes. I don't believe a word of your attempt to change the mind of the rest of the free world. Face it, no one likes communist China. I happen to have lived there during the 9/11 incident, and I can tell you that most of the people in China I knew were cheering that America got attacked. They said "Americans deserves it. Serves them right for being so arrogant." If you think I'm just some foreigner that knows nothing, think again. I happen to be Chinese and speak perfect Mandarin. I actually know some high officials in the government and believe me, I know just how corrupt the communist government officials really are. You are not fooling anyone."

Anyway, browse that site and give a piece of your mind to the communist Chinese propaganda machine. Tell them what you really think. I can't do it without risking my life, but you can do it safely.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Anthony]

Communist countries always have the lamest, most boldfaced lies imaginable. The USSR was great at it, and China's learning the fine art of stupid untruths that no one actually believes. Its incredible to me that the Chinese people don't all have their teeth clenched in anger at the Communists for stealing away so many important parts of Chinese culture and history. So many people here in the West don't understand the motivations of the Govt there.

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
...I can't do it without risking my life, but you can do it safely.

---

Yeah, I'm sure if they recieved some unfriendly mail from an american the big bad evil government would immediately order your assassination.

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: FatPenguin ]

[Dr. Bang]

i detect flames.

[Rat]

Finally I have something I can be pissed off about.

Who the hell do they think they're kidding? I'm not going to elaborate.

I do stand by this opinion, though:

The States didn't deserve 09/11/01, but I believe if it had happened in any other country, no one would care as much. The only reason it's such a big thing is because America is probably the most powerful country in the world. Unfortunately, they've now decided to go attack one of the lesser countries in the world that's actually been fighting for about 20 years (I think), and a suspicion (unless there's some solid eividence I've missed that says otherwise) of one man justifies the killings of thousands who didn't even know about what happened.

Please don't flare at me for my personal opinion. I have the right to free speech, and you have the right to ignore me. If you do say anything, I'll ignore you.

[Lunatique]

FatPenguin- Have you ever lived in a Stalinist communist country? I happen to be living here right now, and people vanish without a trace ALL THE TIME. If you think it doesn't happen, WAKE UP. One of my GF's best friend is a cop here, and after a few drinks, she would tell us all the secret shit that goes on. They can frame you of ANYTHING. They can say you raped and murdered a local girl, and immediately have you thrown in jail. You have not the SLIGHTEST idea of what the Chinese government is capable of. I'm sorry if I sound annoyed, but your comment is ignorant, and it shows lack of concern for the safety of my life.

These people don't need reasons to fuck with you. They just have to dislike you.

I wasn't just going to send a "unfriendly message" to them, I was going to email a bunch of articles and photographs regarding the Tiananmen Square massacre to some of the locals here so they can see the truth instead of the lies their government feeds them. THAT would've sent the government goons/assasins to my doorstep in no time. My GF was wise in stopping me. I was too angry to have thought it over clearly. I was under the impression that my American status would protect me. "Not a chance." she said.

[Lunatique]

Pat- Haha. I've got a great story about pandas.

My GF was a panda caretaker when she was 16, and boy, she's got some great stories. It's kinda funny, since the stories totally reflect the mentality/behavior of the communist Chinese government.

First of all, panda are NOT cuddly and gentle creatures as the people that profit from the creature's fame would have us believe. Pandas are almost exactly like bears. In fact, they are bears with black and white coats.

She said that Fuzhou is China's leading panda research center, and the so called "researchers" only hires young, pretty girls to take care of the pandas. The supervisor would try to rape the young girls, and when the young girls are attacked by the pandas, he would go and get his camcorder to record the event instead of trying th save the girl's life. Girls have died or become crippled for life due to those incidents.

The girls all lived in a room with the pandas, seperated by a sliding iron barred door. They had to smell the panda's excrement all day and night. When the panda is bored and wants food, it would pound on the iron door and scare the shit out of the girls watching TV or chatting.

The supervisors/researchers NEVER do a fucking thing. They make the girls do all the research/caretaking. The girls would have to coordinate with the local hospital to have them come and weigh/measure the pandas, and then take notes. These so called "researchers" will then take all the notes and then publish them as their own and proclaim to be experts. Their fame as experts of pandas are built on torn limbs and lost lives of these young girls.

Anyway, it's an ugly story about the insider's view of the panda world.

[FatPenguin]

quote

Quote:

...people vanish without a trace ALL THE TIME. If you think it doesn't happen, WAKE UP.[/QB]

Do you have any examples of people who were assassinated for expressing political dissent in the last 10 years?

[Anthony]

quote:

---

Originally posted by FatPenguin:
Do you have any examples of people who were assassinated for expressing political dissent in the last 10 years?

---

Do you have any idea how big an asshole you're coming across as? Sorry if you don't speak English too well, just letting you know.

OH, let's all just hug the Communist Govt, its cuddly! There was a story, on CNN I think, a few days ago that was about a woman who spoke out against the local Govt. She had been thrown into a mad house repeatedly for it, drugged up, and left to think over her "crimes." Basically asylums are used when there's no official crime to catch you on. Totalitarian Govts are very 1984, creepy stuff. 2+2=5

[Lunatique]

FatPenguin- OMG. I can't even speak to you anymore. It is absolutely pointless. Go read up on some articles from around the world regarding political assassinations and imprisonment. It doesn't just happen in China, but in all corners of the world. I would LOVE to have you here in China and go around making negative remarks about the communist government, passing out pamphlets, or emailing the locals with articles and photos from the foreign press.

Let's see if you think the same when you hear that fist loud knock on your front door in the middle of the night.

I already told you, my GF's friend(the cop)told us how some of this shit is carried out. How the fuck do I prove that? The media black out here is tighter than a virgin boy's ass(excuse the imagery). Do you have ANY idea what would happen to me if I tried to provide you with proof of some of the shit that happens here? If I did that, pretty soon there would be threads posted asking things like, "Whatever happened to that Lunatique dude that used to post here a lot? Haven't seen him for ages now."

I'm not particularly fond of disappearing from the face of the earth. No thank you. I'd rather wait till I return to the good ol' U. S. of A before I do anything drastic. I'm keeping all the email addresses of my local friends here so that the minute I return to the states, I'll send them all the articles and photos about the truth.

[jome]

Anthony - "Communist countries always have the lamest, most boldfaced lies imaginable."
You make it sounds as an axiom, while there is no correlation between communism and lies. Though history proves me wrong.

Lunatique - I was wondering, isn't the government over there a hideous remnant of the past? I mean, isn't the country moving forward slowly? I'm talking about becoming a free market economy, and so on...
That site is a lie, by the way. My knowledge of English isn't as solid as yours, but I would try to word it the same way. There's no doubt that everything that's said on that site is a pure lie, and a feeble try to propagate myths.
Freedom of religion? Falun Gong...
I just saw the footage of Belgians trying to act against the suppression by the government. They were finally released, and are now back home. They had to educate the police about the Falun Gong, and in the end, the Chinese policemen that arrested them, were much more understanding. So that little anecdote proves propaganda works. Blegh. Leaves a foul taste in my mouth, that site.

[Pat]

Heh heh. Just checked out the site. I'm surprised there isn't a giant cuddly panda bear on the front page. Some of that material is laughable. Most of it's tasteless.

China's best and brightest spinsters have been struggling to show the Tiananmen Square in the best possible light, particularly after last years release of the Tiananmen Papers --a book which basically illustates how many of the poor decisions were made due to bitter power-struggles in the Chinese leadership and had little or nothing to do with the riots themselves.

Their comparison of Tiananmen Square to Kent State is spurious. However, since they invite the comparison:

Kent State - 4 People died. Only 1 of those killed was involved in the protest; some were just on their way to class. Frustrated/afraid Ohio Guardsmen fired into a crowd in short bursts over a period of 13 seconds. Most of them fired into the air. 9 people were wounded. One was crippled for life. The case was ruled an "over-reaction" and was eventually settled out of court.

Tiananmen Square - Untold Thousands died, all of which were protesting. At one point over 100,000 students occupied the square following a period of at least 7 weeks of student protests. At the bequest of the government, soldiers shot into the crowd, repeatedly hunting down and shooting fleeing students. Pleas from leaders to allow fleeing students to leave peacefully were ignored. After the methodical massacre the government reported to the world that no one died. It later updated this figure to a few hundred soldiers and a "few thousand" protesters after foreign media reported otherwise. The Chinese government then burned all the bodies and evidence so the real figure will never be known. It also censured citizens from discussing the matter. It is estimated that there are still around 2000 people incarcerated for speaking out about the massacre and several hundred who survived but were crippled.

If you're going to tell a lie, tell a BIG one.

-Pat

[Pat]

I had a sneaking suspicion those pandas were all cuddly on the outside and pure evil on the inside. Nothing could be that cute and NOT be evil.

They made such a big deal about the one at the San Deigo Zoo one year that I went to see it. Long story short: it looked dead. It could have just been a fur rug for all I could tell. It didn't move all day. To make matters worse, we had to be quiet so the panda could sleep --otherwise it would develop a complex or something. My great panda experience was nothing of the sort. I find it pleasingly ironic that china has adopted it as a national symbol.

-Pat

[edraket]

I am sorry that you have to deal with shit like that lunatique.
That really is all that I can say.
I can say how angry it makes me that they are doing shit like that. But I already knew that and it's not like I spend my life being angry all the time.
I am strongly anti-globalist and I believe that the western world should stop meddling with other countries policies and let the people take their own responsibilities.
But then I hear about the people that live there and that have to deal with shit like yours or even a lot worse. It makes me want to rush in and liberate you with our great kapitalist power. The sad thing is, that I believe that would end up destroying your country (or at least your culture)as well.
So I guess the only way to solve this is for you guys to slowly try to change things. Put some of your effort into making your world a better place and it will eventually be so.
Sorry if that sounds like a cop out thing to say.

[Lunatique]

edraket-- actually, I'm an American citizen vacationing here. THANK GOD I'm not a citizen of this hellhole. I NEVER would've thought about visiting fucking China, but I was visiting my mother, and she, for some weird reason, wanted to live here(she's not even from here, but from Taiwan). She likes the fact she can live like a queen here. I mean, all the rich and powerful people here kiss up to her because she's some American big shot artist.

I would've stayed just a short while and gone back to the states, but I met this incredible girl here, and decided to hang out for a while. It's fine as long as I don't go out and observe all the lame shit that happens. I just kick back at home with the cutest girl in the entire city of Fuzhou sitting on my lap and a Wacom tablet in my hands.

[Lunatique]

Pat- I've got some more panda fun facts for ya.

1)Did you know that pandas make "baa---" sounds similar to a sheep would? They are usaully very quiet, but when they do make a sound, they go, "baa---ba--." When they get pissy, they basically roar like any other bear.

2)On Tv or in performances, they always try to create the illusion that pandas are very gentle and cuddly. The truth is, none of the girls that takes care of panda would EVER turn their backs on a panda--not even for a second. My GF said that girls got maulled all the time. The pandas would even fuck with the girls just for the hell of it(it would pounce on a girl, hold her down, and chew on her slowly just for fun. It wouldn't even eat the girl, but just bite down, and release, bite down and release--repeating it over and over on her face, shoulders..etc. Of course the girl would scream her lungs out begging for someone to save her life as her blood gushed and sprayed all over the insides of the cage).

*shudder*

Yeah, cute and cuddly pandas.

I asked her, "During all the time you were there, not once did any of the pandas display some kind of intimacy or bond with a human, kinda like the way a dogs or cat would?"

Her reply was, "Intimacy? Bonding with a human? Are you nuts? The pandas dont't give a shit who's doing the feeding. All we ever did was try to stay alive around those scary beasts."

Hahahha. Kinda funny.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[horstenpeter]

Another site run by the chinese government that basically does nothing but distribute lies is http://www.chinatibet.org/ . I am a supporter and member of the international Free Tibet campaign and it really bothers me that pretty much nobody cares about this country which has been occupied by China for 50 years. Tibet had a lot of things that I wish we had in our nations, namely the total banishment of weapons and also a focus on spirituality instead of materiality (and I say that even though I call myself an atheist). But I guess the old formula applies: Number of victims + Severity of crime - Distance = Provoked response .

That said, I am of the opinion that communism would be a better form of government than democracy, but it has been abused by those in power and it also goes to show that people are simply too greedy to live in that form of government.
One of the most ironic things about the demise of communism was the arms race / the space race during the cold war. It was pretty much predetermined from the start that the Soviet Union would lose that race, because communism doesn't aim at being superior, it aims at providing the best possible life to the largest possible number of people, instead of providing the best possible lifestyle to the person that knows how to grab the most.

And before anyone implies that I am supporting the chinese government: I am not.
It is shit and needs to be removed as fast as possible. Giving the 2008 olympics to Peking was one of the lamest things that happened over the last few years. Then again, a lot of western visitors will come there, maybe they'll manage to bring along some valuable information to the people of China. We'll see.

[CyberArtist]

I just wanted to point out that USSR and China, even if they say otherwise, are not communist. Communism isn't all that bad, in a utopia-like small society. What USSR and China both have is socialism. A group of very powerful people controlling everything. Socialism actually shares some similarities to North America's representative democracy, only there are far fewer people, and the ground work for how much power any one person can have is more or less up in the air in most of these instances.

FatPenguin: While I don't know anyone who's been killed for speaking out, I do know how corrupt even the Mexican border police can be. They'll let you in all fine and dandy, but as soon as you try to come back in to the US, they'll slap you with some bogus law, pull you out of sight of the American border police, throw you in jail or take your passport. You can stay there till you fall asleep and they steal ALL your stuff, or you can hand them $50 and they'll smile and wave you across the bridge.

All this only less than a quarter of a mile off of the US border.

In these so-called communist countries, anyone who so much as says the government is doing a less that perfect job of ruling can get axed. Think back a couple years to World War 2, or even the in the 1950's here in the US. In WW2, just saying that you think your neighbor is Jewish or not completely pro-nazi could get that other family jailed or more likely sent off to the various "friendly camps" where we all know countless people were slaughtered, mostly for fun. Is it really that hard to believe that this isn't still happening? In the US, we had McCarthy's communist witch hunt. While his original intents may have been truthful, this of course became more a way for McCarthy and others like him to further their political careers by labeling various people, including political rivals, as communist disseminators. Any such labeling is instantly damaging to a political figure, regardless of its factual integrity. Oddly, as far as the American political system goes lately, when these things end up being true, it actually helps the person's popularity, but that's for another discussion. Really, this isn't too far off from what's happening in china, only instead of killing other politicians' careers, they're killing other people.

Also think of the Gansters of the big cities. Mob bosses who ruled the town, and who you paid respect to or were killed. Often their public face would be that they're putting money back in to the community by cleaning up the streets of crime, or maybe giving money to some charitable organization, but in reality the definition of crime was just changed, and the money that was given was just pennies off the "protection taxes" they rustled ot of local store owners. Now imagine that these mob bosses WERE your government and that these types of things happened on a national scale. They control the army, the navy, the air force, the local police, and the media. You say something bad about them, they come and take you away. The police are the ones who take you away, and the media are told not to talk about it else suffer the same fate.

Scary shit happens in the world outside of North America and Europe. We "amuricuns" appear to do our best in stopping these bad men. Really though, our government's motives usually involve keeping our oil prices low, and making sure those in power can be easily controlled. Unfortunately this means that when ever one of these countries comes crying to us that another nation stubbed their toe, we pat them on their back, and send them on their way with a few thousand guns and a tank or two. We purposely overlook the fact that the country we just gave weapons to were the ones who attacked the other country in the first place, and their toe was in the other nation's door jam when they tried to close the door in self defense.

Most of the world hates us ... and we make it all too easy for them to do so. We're the rich bully at the end of the block with a new toy each week, letting anyone who's willing to suck up to us and do our dirty work to touch last week's favorite gadget. Sadly, for the most part, US's citizens are oblivious to things happening in the world around us. We talk about the riot in LA last week that killed 2 people, or our stock portfolio that dropped 10 points. We ignore the hundreds that die every week in the middle east in the on going civil wars, chalk up the stories of political assassinations (Shakespeare made that word up btw) to being fiction made up by the American political thriller novel. Evil things happen in the world every day which our media choose not to comment on because some NIMBY is complaining about some new building project across the street. The average American citizen seems to think the rest of the world are barbarians that need our help, if they even think that far out of their home town, and are perfectly fine with the politicians helping those less fortunate than ourselves. Especially since those politician types are so damn smart, they know what the right thing is to do. Can anyone here really say they think George W. Bush got in to the office because he was smart? I don�t think so.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: CyberArtist ]

[Lunatique]

Karl Marx probably never imagined that his vision of utopia would end up being perverted by cold-blooded, power-hungry men with armies of secret police and nuclear weapons.

*sigh*

[SolarC]

Lunatique,

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against american people, but I don't really see a proper reason for your anger. Since your country does atleast as much propaganda as China. (We have your countries propaganda even here in Finland in form of Hollywood movies etc.) I don't think that our politics and capitalist system is much better compared to chinese system. (I don't recommend Communism either.)
Both systems only concentrate on materia and don't value it's citizens, the human mind or mental evolution.

I personally think that we all live in system, which more corrupts people than helps. (both western and eastern countries)

We aren't having any better system here in Finland, just wanted to point out that there is no use of plaing a game "who lives in the best country" and concentrate on making things better as much as we small people can.

What comes to september 11th, there is no way to justify what happened, but it was only a matter of time when something like this was to happen in USA. If we look what has been happening in the political fields many decades, USA has been quite arrogant against many other countries, including China by the way.

When we observe this issue closely, I think this behaviour we have seen in this discussion is just natural. We people have a tendency to include ourselves to some kind of groups and overlook other groups, like animals do. Look at the wolves and the monkeys, they need to have groups, packs etc. and they also need racism in order to survive. Us humans just, need to evolve further, because our world is pretty different from other animals.

- SolarC

[FatPenguin]

Lunatique, I never said the Chinese government was wonderful, and i never insulted you. I do however think your original post was silly.

First of all, where you say:

"FUCKING BULL SHIT. I was here during 9/11, and these fuckers were cheering that America got attacked! They were saying shit like, "Serves them right for being so arrogant and putting their noses where they don't belong." "

You refer to Chinese people as 'these fuckers'. As you say, you have family and friends in China so it's not completely clear who exactly you are refering to, but either way it comes off as quite offensive.

As for the email that would supposedly get you killed:

"I came across your website, and I'm dubious about its content. It is obvious you are running a website trying to defend China's many glaring faults/mistakes. I don't believe a word of your attempt to change the mind of the rest of the free world. Face it, no one likes communist China. I happen to have lived there during the 9/11 incident, and I can tell you that most of the people in China I knew were cheering that America got attacked. They said "Americans deserves it. Serves them right for being so arrogant." If you think I'm just some foreigner that knows nothing, think again. I happen to be Chinese and speak perfect Mandarin. I actually know some high officials in the government and believe me, I know just how corrupt the communist government officials really are. You are not fooling anyone."

Surely you are being very paranoid here?

You are suggesting that whoever it is that would deal with email for that site would filter through all the unfriendly email (you suggested that people send them stuff, so we'll assume they get quite a bit) and figure out who is within the reach of the government and can be killed. That just isn't realistic.

In your next post you say :

"These people don't need reasons to fuck with you. They just have to dislike you."

I'm not convinced. I think that if you were to put up a website with anti-communist literature, and it became very successful/widely read, then you should absolutely expect to be arrested.
But you seem to think the govt. is completely irrational, putting a huge amount of effort into hunting down and killing any discontent foreigner, regardless of whether or not they pose any kind of threat to the stability of the government.

Of course the government is corrupt, it is a government after all, but i don't believe it's quite the oppressive Orwellian regime you are suggesting. There are plenty of very intelligent, well educated people who are quite happy to live in China

[Lunatique]

FatPenguin- I'm sorry, but I refuse to talk to you about this anymore after I answer your questions. Obviously you have no idea what life outside of your own safe little cushy world is like. You are one of those people who says things like, "Surely that kind of stuff only happens in movies?"

1)I refer to "those fuckers" as the average ignorant, American-hating people in China. Funny thing is, they would kill to live in America(many pay for fake marriages, or smuggle themselves out), and they love blockbuster movies and all American pop culture stuff, yet they mouth off whenever they can about the "America, the big bully."

It might be offensive to the Chinese people living in China who are talking shit about America, then go home and listen to NSYNC while they dig on their happy meal, but hey, you know what? I really don't care.

2)You don't even realize how ignorant you sound, do you? If you really looked at their site, you would've known that you can't send them email, but reply directly from their website. They can easily see where each message came from. I also explained that I wasn't merely going to send the message, but to send articles and photos from the foreign press to the locals here. Do you have ANY idea how serious that is? That's basically destroying the media blackout(and the lies they've told)they've imposed on the subject of the massacre. YOU come here and try that. Let's see how long before they lock you up and beat the living shit out of you(if they don't kill you "accidentally" first). It is ESPECIALLY dangerous for a foreigner to do those things because that gives them the excuse to call you a spy. You know what happens to spys in communist countries, don't you?

3)OMFG. I can't believe you can be so naive. Do you have the slightest idea how friggin' CHEAP it is to hire someone to assassinate another person in China? Dude, you can have someone offed for around a few hundred American dollars. People do it out of personal grudges, let alone political reasons! Every week there's another heinous crime happening in this place, and we can hardly believe our ears when told about them. What is it you don't understand about "fact is stranger than fiction"?

4)Intelligent, well educated people are NOT quite happy living in China. They try EVERYTHING to get out of China. Do you personally KNOW any? Well, I'm friends with them and hang out with them on a regular basis. Why do you assume you know more about a country you don't know much about--one that I LIVE in?

[xXxPZxXx]

There were a couple long posts I skipped past so sorry if someone already addressed this.

Someone said something about america better understanding its inconsistent foreign policy. Maybe we got a close look at reality a bit ago but I don't think that is a fair assumption. I can't believe how ignorant people are and how fast they jump to conclusions. It seems like now if you express any sort of dissent towards the actions taken in Afghanistan or towards Americas way of dealing with the world you are instantly a traitor. You better be a patriotic flag waving jingoist or face the wrath of the masses

I read about a girl from Texas (I think it was texas) that wore a shirt she made that said "When I saw the dead and dying Afghani children on TV, I felt a newly recovered sense of national security. God Bless America." She was suspended from school labeled a traitor and gets threatened all the time. That is exactly how it is you have to pretend that this is the greatest place ever or you are labeled "unpatriotic"

Luna, I don't know what it is like over there but I have heard many stories and am glad I am hearing yours but it is nuts over hear too. Laws are being passed that limit our rights and nobody says a thing so long as they think it is helping fight terrorism. It just seems like everyone is being manipulated and loves it or something.

I know I had like 100 million more points to make but the meat of it is it is really weird to be living over here right now too. It all really bothers me because I can't even wear my favorite bands shirt to school anymore. (www.anti-flag.com) because I get so much shit about it. I actually still wear it but people just don't care to understand it is just a band and want to jump to their high and mighty patriotic causes and jump on the kid who just wants a bit of peace in this world.

I am not angry though it is kind of amusing I guess.

Nice discussion btw

-PZ-

**edit** and I don't mean to make it seem like it is a bad thing to have pride in the country you live in. but it's another thing to go along with everything that happens. Since we have the opportunity to influence at least a little bit I think we should all be a bit more critical of the things going on so we CAN make this country better. Something that I could honestly wave a flag for and not feel like I was supporting things I don't believe in.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: xXxPZxXx ]

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
4)Intelligent, well educated people are NOT quite happy living in China. They try EVERYTHING to get out of China. Do you personally KNOW any? Well, I'm friends with them and hang out with them on a regular basis. Why do you assume you know more about a country you don't know much about--one that I LIVE in?

---

You are absolutely wrong. Yes, i have met people from China. People who are well educated, have travelled extensively, have spent time living outside of China, and still chose return home to live in the "hellhole" (as you describe it) that is China.

[Duckman2]

Hey Fatty, I really think that you just live to argue. Damnit! you're not even argueing. No matter what Luna says or factual evidence he gives you, you still contradict him, god damnit! your just like my fucking sister.

As for the 9/11 terror attacks, nothing can justify what the fanatics did. Targeting civilians can never be justified. I don't think alot of the world realizes that its not just the USA they hate, they hate all infidels, your not a Muslim, then guess what. They want to kill you .

However I can see why the 9/11 attacks happened:
Most Americans don't give two shits about what is happening outside their windows. Forget about countries like Sierra Leone or Afghanistan most average people in America wouldn't be able to point it out on a map. I live in the middle of the self absorbed ignorance, its called Northern Westchester. These people live for their cash and trash, no one is EVER happy with what they have. You only have two BMW's and a Porsche in your garage? Well the guy next door has 5 so there. Don't even get me started on the little princes and queens that I've had to tolerate in high school talk about plastic mother-fuckers. This makes it much easier for our government to get away with the shit it pulls with policy. At least now Americans realize that it's not just about us anymore. I think people would hate us even if we did try to help out more, then we'd just get accused of poking our noses into other countries affair. We just can't win.

However even with all of its problems I still think that the United States is one of the better places to live, you are free to live your own life, and to berate the government without fear of persecution. Damn China is one fucked up place.

I am just sad that the human race hasn't grown weary of conflict yet. How many more wars have to be fought before people just decide that enough is enough?

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Duckman2 ]

[Rat]

Duckman2 - This is one of my own quotes:

"As long as there are living beings in this universe - especially humans - there will be war."

In other words (as if that isn't clear enough), humans will never figure out that enough is enough.

FatPenguin & Luna - Quit your bickering. You're worse than my sister and me.

[-- Transcendent --]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
Do you have the slightest idea how friggin' CHEAP it is to hire someone to assassinate another person in China? Dude, you can have someone offed for around a few hundred American dollars.

---

Out of curiousity, how did you find out ?

And on a sidenote, it'd certainly cost less than a hundred dollars to assonate a person in China, using your logic, all it take's a controversial statement to the government via email.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: -- Transcendent -- ]

[Lunatique]

FatPenguin- For the last time, you don't know what you are talking about. The reasons why any intelligent/educated people would return to China are:

1)They have "connections" there. Life would be easier in China than a foreign country were they are looked down upon.

2)They couldn't hack it in a foreign country(tired of working as a waiter or dish-washer). They couldn't rely on "connections," as they did in China.

3)They have family, friends, or romantic interests there.

4)They love people feeling inferior to them because they have lived abroad(like my mom). The locals here would look up to foreigners(or Chinese people from abroad), especially westerners because they all believe foreigners are "better."

5)They have already established themselves in China in intellectual circles(for example, my mom's ex who is the dean of Shanghai Art Institute), and they love the respect they get back home. Compared to being totally unaccomplished abroad, of course they'd rather have the respect.

If it wasn't for one of these reasons, I don't know ANY Chinese person that would rather live in China than abroad. If you know a few exceptions, those would be VERY RARE exceptions. No person in their right mind would prefer to live in China once they've lived in places like United States or Europe.

I know dudes here that have lived abroad(either got there legally or smuggled out) but returned too. Why? Because THEY JUST COULDN'T HACK IT abroad, and they LOVE feeling superior to the rest of the population here for having lived abroad. If these people had cushy jobs and weren't looked down upon by foreigners, would they return to China? Hell no.

Most of these people lived in places like Germany, Canada, UK, United States...etc for a few years, yet they return to China barely knowing any foreign language. Most of them worked in Chinese resturants and tried to marry people for green cards or foreign passport. I can spot these fools a mile away. They walk around like they are hot shit and have "I'm cooler than you because I've lived abroad." printed on their foreheads. Yet when they run into someone like me who actually GREW UP in the States, they shut up pretty quickly.

These guys always pretend they've got it made abroad, and now they've returned to start businesses in China, but we would then find out from his/her friends visiting from abroad that they were nothing but hard-labour workers abroad, and barely speaks the damn language. There are too many people like that in China.

So far, I've met only one dude in Beijing who was visiting from Denmark that appears to be a successful transplant. But he LIVES in Denmark and wouldn't for a second consider going back to China to live. He only returns to make money off of the fools in China that worships foreign things.


-- Transcendent -- I know because on numerous occassions when I jokingly made comments like, "Man, that guy really pisses me off!", one of my local friends will ask me quietly, "I know out of town hard-labor dudes from Szechuan that will off people for a few thousand RMB(RMB is currently about 8.5 to 1 american dollar). (Szechuan is the poorest province in China. All of its residences pretty much flock to other cities to do hard-labour for money. Szechuan people are always looked down upon by other Chinese people. They are also known for being thieves, murderers, and liars.)

Of course, I was amused and horrified at the same time. Even my own mother, once in an argument with a security guard who was been unreasonable, said to him, "Goddamit, if you keep this up, I'll just spend a few thousand RMB and have you killed."

No, I DO NOT condone such behavior. I told my mom she was way out of line for making that threat.

[Pat]

SolarC, it's not the fact that either (or any country for that matter) engages in propaganda. It's just that the Chinese are particulaly bad at it. Much of the world has become highly sophisticated in terms of mass media, so these painful first steps at attempting to sway the us look idiotic.

As for Sept 11th, the US is coming to terms with it's inconsistent foreign policy. If it appears the US is arrogant, it's because we have the unenviable task of being the world's only superpower. That's a lot of moral responsibility and it's not an easy job. I don't see anyone else stepping up to the plate.

-Pat

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Pat ]

[horstenpeter]

Pat, I just think that very often the USA seem to be ignorant of everybody else's problems (Kyoto protocol anyone ? What about the years of terror in Afghanistan before Sept. 11th ?). The USA only intercept when something is going against their interests, but they don't care as long as they can do what they want.