[Lunatique]

I want your opinion on this.

I'm 29, and in my years of observation as an asian person who immigrated to the U.S. at age 11, I've noticed something that I can't quite figure out.

I was born in Taiwan and lived there till I was 11. After I moved to the U.S., I still kept in touch with eastern culture. Over the years, I noticed a big difference in the way the east and the west depicts love.

In the east, many stories told about love don't ever dwell on sex, lust, or obsession. When you watch movies, read novels, or listen to songs about love, the main focus is usually on the deep, inner feelings of trust, loyalty, understanding, tenderness, acceptance...etc. It is rarely about sex, obsession, lust, and other feelings related to the libido.

In the west, you can't escape depictions of sex, lust, and obsession even if you tried. In movies, novels, and songs about love, you are bombarded with all the surface stuff, and westerners seems to indulged so much on the glossy surface of "love" that the deeper, more meaningful love is often overlooked.

In the east, romance novels are actually about romance, where in most cases sex never even happens. In the west, it's scenes after scenes of womanly curves and powerful biceps, and how they drool for each other.

In western movies, you almost ALWAYS see the lead characters sleep together at some point. In the east, romantic movies evolve around how the character's souls connect, and how they learn to trust, care for, and understand each other. Many times, sex is never mentioned or seemed important.

In western "love" songs, we hear too much of, "Oh baby I want you," "Let's make love all night," "girl, you make me wanna..." "The way you touch me..."

In the east, the lyrics are like, "Your soul will always be apart of mine," "If the world comes crashing down, I'll be holding your hand," "One last embrace before you shatter my heart into a million pieces..."

Now, why such a big difference?

Of course, there are exceptions to both sides, but I'm talking a generalization of MOST cases. The overall impression I have after becoming familiar with both sides of the atlantic is the one I described.

What is your opinion on this?

[klaivu]

Fast food culture implies fast food sex.

[J Bradford]

I don't know. It seems to be that your trying to imply one is better than the other. It draws down to culture, really.

I suppose in the west sex plays a much bigger factor, where "deep, inner feelings of trust, loyalty, understanding, tenderness, acceptance...etc" is mentioned, briefly, but maybe the audience simply is not as interested? Except for the exceptions of course.

But again, what do I know. I've never lived in Asia, so..

[Gothic Gerbil]

Ha, you hit on something that I usually go on a rant about. I get sooo bloody sick and tired of sex being used as the "only" way in movies for someone to show that they love someone else. Which is why I prefer a lot of older movies, love usually came across as more meaningful. I can't say I get much eastern culture exposure beyond anime, but it sounds much closer to what I wish I saw in movies and read in books. And I think klaivu basically hit on it. Everybody here wants everything now, no waiting for it, no working for it, so that leaves basically no time whatsoever for deeper feelings to develop. Sex is the culmination of that. True romance is dead. It is a sad state of the world by my view. (probably another one of those reasons why I'm always single blah) Ok, I'll shut up now, this subject always depresses me.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Yes, it could be the 'I want it NOW' thing, but it may also be a censoring thing - in the east I think the attitude is slightly more 'Victorian' than in the west. I think eastern men want sex just as much as western men (just look at Hentai), it's just that they have to repress it more. It's this whole 60's Woodstock thing, that never happened in the East... which might be a good thing, I don't know.

[eyewoo]

Interesting... read these two paragraphs:

quote:

---

In western "love" songs, we hear too much of, "Oh baby I want you," "Let's make love all night," "girl, you make me wanna..." "The way you touch me..."

In the east, the lyrics are like, "Your soul will always be apart of mine," "If the world comes crashing down, I'll be holding your hand," "One last embrace before you shatter my heart into a million pieces..."

---

There seems to opposite outlooks depicted... One tends toward optimism and the other pessimism. I only mention it because it just jumped out at me. Interesting... and I'm sure there is a deeper reason for the difference...

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: fleabrain ]

[travis travis]

well, I guess being the land of free, we find it hard to resist to descend into degeneration and hedonism a lot of times. that's the trouble with people. whenever they find what they consider 'freedom' they use it to bring themselves down.

personally, I appreciate the integrity of actual storytelling that doesn't depend on cheap thrills -- but I don't know, that cheap American rears his head in me often that would as soon be thinking 'show us your tits!' at the movie screen instead of 'god, this is a storyless conglomeration of Hollywood goo' Well, at least I know which is the bad way of thinking. Although, hell, even that's thrown into question when everyone else insists on being superficial and dumb and makes you feel like a negative prick for having an opinion.

[Lunatique]

It IS a very strange thing indeed. Steven is right about hentai and twisted Japanese bondage/rape/scat stuff. When thay go full out with the sex--watch out!

BUT, what I'm talking about is the depiction of ROMANCE. In movies like Bridges of Madison County, you actually see a real romance take place instead of massive physical attraction. It works out wonderfully. BUT, on the other hand, you have a movie like Waking the Dead, where potent sexual attraction is a major element in the characters' romance, and it works out powerfully as well.

Now, in asian films, you have a movie like A Moment of Romance, where sex never happens, but it's an heart-wrenching romance. A movie like Fallen Angels, where the female assassin's sexual obsession with the male assassin is also powerful and works great in the movie.

But these are exceptions where both cultures tried both approaches and made them all work.
I wish there would be more exceptions instead of the rule.

I'm a bit weird in the fact that when I REALLY like a girl, I don't even think about sex with her. It's as if my libido switch has been switched to OFF. My heart is filled with so much affection and romantic feelings for that person, I can't even fantasize about "what would it be like to make love to her?" Of course, once the heat turns up, it naturally leads there, but I seem to be sexually attracted more to women I don't like quite as much. Maybe because my heart isn't filled up with affection when I'm with a woman I don't go crazy for, so there's room for naughty thoughts??

Weird, huh?

[Anthony]

Yeah, read Shakespeare or Jane Austin for some Western romance. Heck, check out the movies from before 1950 and you get the same thing. It really was the 60s. It's also why a lot of Americans look at Asian and other cultures as primitive. In this case, to be sure, primitive doesn't necessarily mean worse-it just means it hasn't mutated to the same state. I prefer the old way myself, because I've seen sex become something of an obsession with people, and that causes problems. BTW, Luna, that's normal.

[Lunatique]

fleabrain-- It is very true. Asian culture tends to be more pessimistic, especially the Chinese. The Japanese however, have become extremely westernized, and the whole Japanese pop culture is like one bouncy, happy, delirious world.

Bradford-- one is definitely not better than the other. Divorce rates are high EVERYWHERE.

Anthony-- Very true. Have you noticed that all the greatest love stories are tragic ones? Why is that? Tragedyy is more powerful? Well, Jane Austin's an exception. She's really a romantic comedy writer in some ways.

It seems that asian culture is focused on virtue, subtlety, and grace, while western culture is focused on passion, beauty, and pride.

So, if that's the case, it makes sense that asian romances are depicted with more sutlety and restraint, while western romances are depicted with passion and obsession?

Well, that's what my tiny brain came up with.

[ceenda]

Lunatique: I noticed something odd today. I went to get some groceries and picked up a copy of PC Gamer... and noticed that all the newspapers (well, tabloids), and most of the magazines had a woman (or three) in some kind of lust-inspiring pose. What's odd about that? Well, I didn't really notice anything out of the ordinary. I don't know what's like elsewhere, but in Britain, I think people might begin to get a bit bored of lust now. They see the inspiration for it stuck on billboards, they see endless games and movies and porn and blah blah blah... but it's a kinda empty hollow thing. I mean, yeah, if it was a choice between a week with the nicest loving girl on earth or a porn star who was a complete bitch, I'm sorry to say that I'm really shallow enough to go for the porn star. But the point is that nowadays It seems like people are getting bored of 'instant gratification' for want of a better phrase. If anything, I think our culture might be heading back into an age where love and romance are greatly prized. Our culture goes in and out of fads, secularism and fanaticism, freedom and legalism, violence and peace...

lust and romance are no different...

[aquamire]

I personally think that like anything, sex and lust can be abused, and it certainly is in western culture, especially here in the US. Sex is on everything, its a marketing tool, thats how low its gotten. Im not one to see nudity in a movie and shudder, but if nudity and sex are suppose to be beautiful things that we should accept and embrace, why do we exploit them so much that they become hollow? I swear, I have yet to meet another person who isn't souly interested in sex in a relationship, they see nothing beyond that, and cant even call it love making-they use that lovely word, fucking. Im sure someones out there for me. I hope. Maybe I should start looking in the East?

Im a guy, and when I try talking to other friends about this, they look dumbfounded. "You mean you dont like sex?" is usually all they can say, gah. People.

Im done ranting now. Im sure I did nothing to add to this thread. Oh well.

[horstenpeter]

Yeah I can agree upon almost all that was said in this thread.

I don't know what's up. I don't really find porn magazines and similar stuff to be appealing in any way. The stuff doesn't even excite me in a sexual way. (Could you use the word "arouse" here ? Or would that sound perverted ? Come on guys teach me some English )

Have to disagree with ceenda though, I'd definitely go for the week with the nicest loving girl on earth. You know, sex is something I can buy if I really feel the need to. And if I can spend a week with the nicest loving girl on earth, sex won't be something I think about that week.

I have to agree about the difference between western and asian culture. I don't want to say that either is better than the other, because both have good and bad sides, but if I'd have to choose I'd choose asian culture. The main reason is that everything is so commercialized in western culture. Commerce won't stop at anything.
Another thing I like about asian culture is that intellectually sophisticated films seem to have a greater chance of success over there. Don't even get me started on how much I hate Hollywood and films such as Pearl Harbor. Oh yeah and I have to agree that asian films seem to depict romance in a much more sophisticated way than western films. Western films seem to focus on whether or not the characters will kiss at the end of the film (even though everyone already knows from the start that they will), while asian films seem to focus on whether the characters fit together and can be happy together.

Oh well I guess this was a confusing reply that reiterated just about anything that was already said in this thread. But whatever. I'm just happy to see that I'm not alone with my point of view.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: horstenpeter ]

[aquamire]

...
way off topic. sorry folks

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: aquamire ]

[bld]

sex = over rated

[Jezebel]

"I remember when THAT VILE CAUCASSIAN HARLOT who put a deep scar in my life and career.."

Shinji - Take responsibility for your own actions and quit blaming other people already.

And about the original content of the thread... I agree with a lot that has been said. And yeah Luna, I think tragedy is more powerful. I believe a lot of those tragic stories show how love is more powerful than death... which to many is the most feared (or anticipated, depending on your culture) thing in the world.

And I'm really tired of all the hoochie girls in the gamer magazines too. Not all gamers are guys damnit :P

[wayfinder]

i was going to make a lame joke about the relationship between attention to romanticism and size of reproductive organs in east and west, but hey, shinji kinda beat me to it

[Naz]

I thought that sex and love are the same.. so what's the problem?

[aquamire]

Sex and love the same? I hope your kidding, otherwise you imply you have sex with your mother, that is if you love her. Still, sex is only an aspect of real love; real love I think is something thats quite rare in todays world.

[Bungee]

I must write to say I'm a bit disappointed with the views of shinji69. You "liked it better that way", when young girls would be stoned for losing their virginity? You also seem to have a problem with discussing sexual ideas with women. Especially when they bring it up.

That's really too bad you feel this way.

The notion of "romance" in the 2000's will NEVER be as innocent and uncomplicated as it was. And part of that has to do with the changing ideas of the sexes these days. No longer the weaker/fairer sex, a woman can propose to a man and it can be considered romantic as hell! For that matter, a woman can propose to another woman and it can still be seen as beautiful romance... You know what I mean?

All rules are out the window, and FINALLY romaticism is subjective!

But you've GOT to let go of these antiquated notions of pure white virgins and men arriving on horses, etc... in order to enjoy the new freedon of today's romance!

Just an opinion of a hopeful romantic.

[Gothic Gerbil]

You know, the way you describe it Bungee, it sounds like modern art. I hold with shinji's views here basically.

[Awetopsy]

Sex isnt an activity I have indulged myself in personally, Im waiting till I get married.

I believe that "western culture" has become morally depraved. In general, the only thing my eyes get bombarded with everyday, is sex. Sex in movies, sex on billboards, etc. I firmly believe a womans body is for her husband and a mans body is for his wife.

Im not one to tell people what they can and cannot do, but I do kinda like that "victorian" way of doing things, as Steven Stahlberg put it.

...but thats just me.

[aquamire]

I think people need to learn more responsibiliy when it comes to sex. I kind of have the same stance as Awetopsy here, Im not terribly strict about it, but what I see today is a complete and utter disregard for the responsibilites of sex, and respect for peoples bodies, both their own and other peoples. Look at all the 12 year olds with babies. God thats sick. And they WANT to have them, they have no idea of the responsibility. Look at the stds floating around, half of americans have an std, typically herpes or genital warts because neither can be detected by conventional means, and can go undedected for upwards of 10 years, even for life for some people. Then theres the morally inept people who carry these diseases and know it and screw like bunnys anyways. Its really sad, it does terrible damage to those who receive these diseases. Not as much physically, but emotionally. Imagine one day being able to have sex with a partner of your choice, hopefully someone who cares about you, and then the next day being terrified of being with anyone for fear they wont accept you and your new problem.

Sex is beautiful, human bodies are beautiful. We can all admit its on our minds, that its fun, and we all have our curiosities, but this take on liberating sexuality shouldnt go so far as to put it in every place every where, without any moral implications. It just taints it all..

[Dr. Bang]

well, when i first come to canada from Asia i hear my classmates make jokes about masturbation and stuff. I don't even know what it means, i took out my dictionary and read its meaning........still no clue.


6 years later, every day! JK

[Lunatique]

Dr.(gang)Bang-- bwahahahahaha!

I think that in some ways, what my brother said one time is correct:

"Asian people do it just as much, but they don't talk about it openly."

Of course, it's not completely true. There are asian girls who thinks of sex as a very serious and sacred thing, and they would never have sex with someone they didn't love. Many have relationships that went on for a very long time before any sexual intimacy took place. The same could be said for western girls(especially religious ones).

So, it really boils down to the individuals personal moral code. The key is, you need to find someone who shares your values and morals.

Nice girls are sometimes attracted to bad boys, but it usually never lasts because they don't share the same values in life. But sometimes, the bad boy changes because of the nice girl, or the nice girl gets corrupted.

I've dated all kinds of girls, and it's weird because sometimes, their appearance and behavior does not match their morals. Some wild girls are actually quite traditional morally, and some innocent girls are actually little nymphos that just wants it all the time.

It's a strange and complex world we live in.

One universal truth though: Men are far easier to stray and become tempted than women. And in general, men can seperate sex from love more easily than women. Of course, exceptions happen on both sides. I've met men that will NEVER cheat on their girlfriends/wives, while I've also met horny, untrustworthy bimbos.

Man, this topic could be discussed till the cows come home, sleep, and leave again the next morning!