[Goldabar]

*Sigh* I need some advice kind've badly...

I've just gotten off from having a big arguement/discussion with my Dad, he's tried to make me think about a lot of things (or perhaps destroy my will to live...), mainly about my future...

You see I'm looking to get into the gaming industry, firstly as a Level Designer. Scratch that, I'm kind've already in the industry, in fact yesterday a game I worked on went Gold (a game called Tactical Operations:Assault on Terror, it's being published by Infogrames).

The arguement was about whether I should go to University, and how I'm going to support myself if I don't. Right now I've already been in discussions with a couple of guys from Irrational Games (http://www.irrationalgames.com/) about what I should do next year once school is finished. I was surprised to find that they said that Uni is a nice option, but going straight into the workforce can have great benefits. In fact they want to meet me for an interview or just a chat at the end of this year (their office is about 5 hours from where I live now, which is one reason that I contacted them. My parents are very much against me getting any work from outside Australia, which completely sucks...)
Anyways, I'm all for getting straight into the workforce, because to be honest after 12 years of school I'm really, really starting to hate our education system. Theres just so much stuff that I've learnt that I'm really never going to use (although I do go very well in school, so yeah I could go for whatever sort of Uni course I like, perhaps Graphic Design)
Besides this, I've had 4 years experience of being in various design teams for MOD's and a few commercial products, and a publisher demo that I'm working on right now. So I know how to function in a team, something thats very important.

Basically my arguement with my Dad boiled down to him saying "but how will you support yourself straight up after school" and me replying with a HUGE list of stuff I have planned out, such as doing contract work on the side of a job at Irrational. I really am a hard worker, and have been over the past 4 years with school, all of my mapping projects (on an average night I spend 4-6 hours on my mapping stuff) and also a part time job...

To be honest the arguement just degraded into a stupid cycle of me explaining my plans (while trying not to cry at the same time, honestly, my Dad is kinda good at ripping apart my dreams ) and my Dad presenting his stupid arguements over and over and over again....I got sick of answering the same questions. He has no respect for any sort of Artistic fields out there, and doesn't seem to realize that experience in the field means a hell of a lot.

Anyways, what I'm wondering is who here thinks Uni is worth it, or if going straight into a LD career would be good. As I explained to my Dad I don't plan on remaining an LD for ever, I'd also like to move on to other points of game design, perhaps even become Lead Designer of some titles.
And also, did anyone else here find it difficult to get started with their career, and is it faring well now?

Some pics of my work:

http://www.planetunreal.com/goldabar/POTD1large.jpg

http://www.planetunreal.com/goldabar/sp1.htm

http://www.planetunreal.com/goldabar/POTD3large.jpg

All comments and critics welcome please (not on the pics, on what I should do from this point). Please I need as many opinions as possible, I'm feeling kinda depressed right now because I'm sick of having no respect from my Father

*edit* if anyone wants this thread out of this forum and into the Random Musings forum or something I'll be happy to delete it and start a new one.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Goldabar ]

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Goldabar ]

[Dr. Bang]

I can see why he's acting like this, no matter how much you say to him. Why dont you tell him to give you a chance to prove your self for a short period of time? If u dont failed to support your self, then go back and follow his choice. Its not like you're gonna die for not going to University or something.

[Goldabar]

Actually those're a few points I made, I said to him I'd just like at least a 1 year break from education, to actually work in an office with guys that're as passionate about game design as I am (I'm sick to death of making games with people who I only know by some text on a screen...) After that, I'd prolly be happy to do something like Graphic Design or Architecture (probably not architecture. A mate of mine said to do architecture if you want to be an architect, not a Level Designer. He should know, he's an LD from Epic games )
And I've been proving myself for 4 years now but still he doesn't really care. I've grown up a lot in the UT mapping community, gotten to a stage where I'm quiet a high profile mapper, and my work is very respected (sorry if that sounds cocky or something guys but it's true )

Anways yeah...he's kind've one of these guys that thinks that if you do anything artistic, you're gay and poor (I'm neither, heh).

He's a coal miner BTW, he Manages a Longwall (if anyone knows what that is, raise your hand).

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Goldabar ]

[Pat]

It's difficult to explain to the older generation that a university education just doesn't guarantee the financial opportunities it once did. In many instances it can become a liability. Four years getting a "well rounded" education is time not spent focusing on the specific skills you need in the game industry. You can also rack up substantial student debts which can make it difficult to stay focused on your games career. It's also possible that a degree can force a potential employer to not hire you because company policy mandates an appropriate salary for your level of education. I've seen people turned down for jobs because they had too much education... no one could afford them!

I'm not going to say higher education isn't worth it though. If you take it seriously you will have a great body of knowledge and skills which will service you for the rest of your life. My education was worth every penny I spent --and more. However, in the artistic disciplines, your work will always speak louder than your degree.

Look carefully at the skills you think you're going to need. Not just for the job you want now, but for the jobs you may want to graduate to in the future. Then ask yourself if going to a university will help you develop those skills.

Personally, I don't see why you can't do both.

-Pat

[Goldabar]

Agreed, I thought of even working something out with Irrational so that they could help put me through Uni with some kind of salary sacrifice (although that wouldn't leave much money for me to live on )

Also yes, i don't want debts hanging over my head, and I think I've developed my LD skills far enough by myself to make it a career. But I'm not so sure that Graphic Design at Uni could help me out further down the track seeing I tend to be better at teaching stuff to myself rather than having someone else teach it to me.
*edit* damnit my typing is terrible tonight, spelling mistakes all over the place, I'm too damn tired

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Goldabar ]

[Ian Jones]

A little off topic, but about what you said just above:

I agree, that perhaps a course may not be the best way to learn.. I'm studying graphic design currently.. and although I do learn stuff in classes and some theory, most of my learning happens on my own, on the web, looking at work, experimenting, and realizing theory in my own mind. However I must say that being in a structured learning environment has made me aware of the bigger picture and has acted as a catalyst for my learning. So I can be pretty sure I haven't missed anything, and being in contact with my peers is also very important. Gotta sus the competition, and get used to the working environment.

Hope that helps.

[mythwarden]

Goldabar,

If you had said that it was an Art School I would have told you to skip it since it wouldn't play a huge impact. But since it's a University your talking about, I would completely suggest that you go.

Here's why

Professionalism and Balance - There is so much more to the industry then just creating cool levels and nice artwork. School can never hurt you and unfortunately as you get older it will become harder and harder to go back.

Do it while you�re young. The gaming Industry will wait for you. Who knows, you may find a love for something you never thought you would care for in school.

I didn't care for school either, mate. I didn�t until I went to college and found a love for World History.

I later dropped school to become one of the original artists working on the games "Morrowind" and "Redguard" for Bethesda Softworks.

Since then I've worked on 3DO's Might and Magic Franchise until I decided I had enough of the industry for now. The long hours are harsh as hell on family life and allow for little else other then "The Game"
Well you see...that's exactly it. They are just "Games" And no matter how much we love them, there is so much more to life. You need balance and that is what a University will help you with.

Go to school for a little while and see if you like it. You can always drop out if you don't. College years are supposed to be some of the greatest years to remember. Don't miss out on that because I guarantee you that your chances of going back will be next to nil while working the industry.

This is all in my own opinion. I hope it helps you.

-Myth

[jbirn]

"School can never hurt you and unfortunately as you get older it will become harder and harder to go back."

That is so true - times change, industries change, and people change - and when it's time to make your next move in a few years, you can make the move better if you've been to college.


"Do it while you�re young. The gaming Industry will wait for you. Who knows, you may find a love for something you never thought you would care for in school."

So true again! And speaking of things to do while young, also think about how many more girls you're likely to meet in the U - building your life around the needs of a games company can sometimes not lead to as much of a life as you'd like to live.


From another post above: "I've seen people turned down for jobs because they had too much education... no one could afford them!"

In reality, I see very few job ads requesting that you know less, of have fewer qualifications, especially not for the more desirable jobs. The opposite is true, and more doors will be opened to you after college. For each example of a successful college drop-out, there are 100 examples of people whose education helped them go further. Education is the single biggest predictor of how much money you make later in life, and usually pays for itself many, many times over.

-jeremy

[Lunatique]

I agree with the others. There are many other thing in life outside of games. You might love it now, but after a few years working full-time in the industry(pulling crazy hours, no social life..etc), you might feel different. You will probably still love PLAYING games, but WORKING on them is a different story. Truth is, you don't always get to work on the kind of games you like. I've was in the biz for 3 years, shipped 5 games total, and not ONCE did I work on a game I would actually buy as a gamer. Working on games you wouldn't bother even playing the demo of as a gamer is NOT a good feeling. But, you might luck out and work on cool games. I'm just reminding you of the possibility. Just ask most of the employees at EA or 3DO if they like the games they are working on.

I missed out on the whole university thing, and I regret it now(I was a starving comic book artist for 8 years). If I could go back in time, I would've taken lots of classes like literature, photography, philosophy, history, astronomy...etc. I was lucky enough to help my older brother(who has terrible English skills because he didn't grow up in the States like I did)through his higher education until he got his masters in political science from San Francisco State Uni. I would help him read textbooks, write his papers, and I learned a lot from helping him(5 years of it!). If I could, I would go in a heartbeat right now to get a masters in English Literature. In fact, if I had done that, I might not even be painting anymore.

Decisions we make can change the our entire life. Make the choice that leaves you the most options. You can work in games and take classes at night, but most people do that only when they have a very specific major/degree they are going after. In your case, you have youth, and you should explore your options with the advantage of youth.

Let's say you choose school, and in the middle of it, you realize you MUST do games or die, you can STILL work in games. But, it's a lot harder the other way around.

[Steven Stahlberg]

I think the bigger issue here is you and your dad should not have a falling out over this. I'm sure you'll end up doing whatever it is you want to do in the end anyway - I mean, when you're 40 you'll look back and the difficulties you're having now won't seem like much - but try to come to some mutual understanding with your dad, or that might develop into a lifelong regret... for both of you...

For starters, did you tell him everything you told us in the first post? Even if you did, mail it to him. Things always sink in better in print. And mail Pat's reply to him as well, to make him see more of your side of the argument. In fact maybe mail him the whole thread, he'll appreciate seeing some support from the industry for his point of view, and he'll feel less threatened perhaps.
Then, when he's read it, have another discussion, perhaps with a third more neutral party present, someone your father respects, like an uncle or a university teacher... hey there's an idea - in the guise of seeming like you're considering his point of view, say you'd like to go with him to a guidance councellor at a university, then while you're there open up the can of worms again and try to get the councellor into a mediating role. [shrug] well it might make your father more receptive to your point of view. I don't know.

[good bye]

If you decide to go to school, NEVER FORGET WHAT YOU REALLY LOVE! They will actually frown upon if not openly spit on everything you love. They will tell you that it is trite, childish and unimportant. That shit wears you down after a few years.

You want my opinion - fuck university. If you want to expand your education, get a library card.

[Sumaleth]

Firstly, I do understand where your dad is coming from. He's put some 20 years into you, with dreams of you becoming a high-paid professional and he would have little to no real comprehension of the game industry.

He wouldn't know that a lot of mappers are going straight from school into fulltime game mapping work because there is a constant need for mappers in the game industry. Anyone with more than a few good maps under their belt is hot cheese out there.

But what he's really concerned with is long-term potential. Level design is, in general, the lowest position at game companies - only the top 2 or 3 game companies have 'name' mappers. Level design is also something that anyone can do with a bit of practice - it's very close to being unskilled labor.

So you wouldn't really want to rely on a long term career as a level designer. But where does that leave you? Game designer? *Every* single person working in the game industry has sights on being a project leader or a game designer, and few will get those few positions available.

Of course it's easier if you're happy to stick with the smaller companies, but they are constantly at risk of closing down and that sort of job risk isn't a good way to start a work career.

I could go on, but to cut a long story short I think some sort of further leaning would be worth it. I had a look at your site and the map images and, to me at least, nothing there shows truly professional quality yet. Smaller game companies might still be interested, but you'll struggle for a longterm career - and remember that you need to think of your career going through to the age of 50-60.

Some higher education courses in art and design would work a treat, and perhaps some business subjects too if you had thoughts of being higher up the game-company food chain at some point.

You might not even do a whole course, but at least two years of professional study could make a big difference. And all the while you'd keep working at home - freelance or just for fun - and you will develop into someone those 2 or 3 big companies might want.

Note: you'd only be able to get a US work VISA if you have a) a completed university course, or b) two years professional experience. And even then it's iffy. You need to be GOOD for them to hand over a visa for the game industry.

--

I went into an engineering course out of secondary school. I did two years before deciding I wanted to be making games, not engineering. So I quit and coded games for 2 years which lead absolutely nowhere. But the art skills I had developed in that time lead to work on animated TV commercials and I've managed to have a good, varied career since then.

But I still wish I'd done a damn art/design course at uni.

Row.

[good bye]

Sumaleth made a very good point. I still feel pretty salty about "art-school" though. Go to a really high-profile school if that's an option. Otherwise, I still think it's a waste of time.

Just because you are making phat pay and driving around in nice a new SUV, doesn't mean you'll be happy making the money to pay for it.

[P'tit Ben]

I think a lot of good points have been laid here already, but I wanted to add my opinion too on a job point of view

I'm in the game industry (it's been for 6 years now as development engineer) and I saw a lot of Level designers. LD is a work that requires of course a lot of game knowledge (something not taught in university) and special skills that you only learn through personal motivation (how to design a level, what makes a level fun to play, etc...) but what makes the difference between all those self taught lead designer is also their culture and their knowledge.

University is not only there to fill your brain of UNuseful things but to lay down in yourself the basic skills to prepare you to your professionnal life.

Lead design is perhaps a good way to begin in the game industry, but once there it is hard to evolve to higher jobs. By following school and delaying your wish to be in games, you can apply later with a good resume that will allow you to enter at a better position.

Good point made by someone here : Game industry will be here again in 4 years. You can still also do some level design while you study too.

And one last point : once you start working and aging, it is really hard to go back to study.

I personnally do not regret my studies until 25, even if it was hard. Lots of thing I learnt do not serve me now in my job, but the knowledge I gained is something I would have never learnt in my job and is useful for me in my life outside of work!

That is all I can share about my experience. Now it is you to decide what you want to do! All I wish you is to have an interesting life, whatever your choice.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: P'tit Ben ]

[Anthony]

Its your life kid, have fun with it. That doesn't mean be rude to anyone, or burn your bridges, but you should be stern about the decisions you make for your own life.

[Bg]

There's already more art related stuff to learn in the Internet than I could learn on my whole life! If you have a fixed internet connection and passion to learn new things everyday, don't go to Uni, they'll teach you a lot of things you wont be needing in your whole life, you can teach yourself all the things you really love and even the stuff that you hate, and much more.

Heck, I would have studied everything on my own since 4th grade, but elementary school is mandatory, it took 6 hours of my life every day for 9 years and I won't get that time never back. It's quite ridiculous, they didn't teach anything new until the slowest people had learned, 75% of it was complete waste of time.

[MoleculeMan]

I am in a university right now. Go to school when you have a chance and get a well rounded education. I think one thing you need to look at in the gaming industry is how its in a constant state of flux. Everytime i turn on the news a company goes under or some un-small number of people are layed off. It would suck to not go to school, lose your job, and be stuck not in a university. Atleast if you go to a university you can 1. always quit, 2. tack on the fact that you've had level design experience at one company to your bolstered resume, and 3. become a well rounded person. Besides you might end up going to the university to find out you have an even greater love for philosophy or physics than the game industry.

jake

[MadSamoan]

Hi Goldabar,

I've been in the industry as an artist for almost ten years and I've worked on a few high profile games like Rogue Spear and Deus Ex and I would recommend that you go to a University.
Right now you're still enthralled with the idea of working in an industry that on the outside looks like it's creating magic but after a while, the long hours, being unappreciated and exploited, and trying to survive the day-to-day business side of things, it'll take some of the dazzle out of it. If you're really talented and really meant to be in the games industry, you'll get there, whether you go to school or not.
One of the reasons I think you should go to college is that you're not going to be the same person in ten years that you are today. Game production has changed drastically over the years, some good, some bad. Over time, you'll have different interests believe it or not, and you may decide that you want to get into a slightly different field than games/game design and a degree will make it MUCH easier to do so.
If you plan on going overseas or teaching at a college, a degree is almost essential. Without a degree, immigration departments in other countries assume you're unskilled labor and it's difficult proving otherwise.
Once you're in the game industry, you don't have the time or the interest in playing as many games as you used to and you pretty much have to find a new hobby or interests outside of the game industry.
A college education will help your social skills in social gatherings, the work environment and help you recognize the good guys from the snakes in the industry and interact with people outside of the industry, like say, um, 'girls' for instance. Alot of people in the industry took the route of skipping college and to be frank, it shows. If you want an example of what I mean, go check out Fatbabies.com (www.fatbabies.com) and check the forums. These will be the people you'll be working with.
Over the years, I've had periods where I've been bitter over how I've been treated in some situations, or how if I had a little more maturity that college would have given me, I perhaps would have handled something differently or avoided it altogether. Right now though, I'm pretty happy with where I am. I'm not the same game playing, Nine Inch Nails listenin' sci-fi movie watchin', comic book readin' geek that I was ten years ago. Hell, I'm not the same punk I was TWO years ago. I'm wiser and amazingly, not jaded about the industry like so many other veteran developers, but if I could do it again, I would have gone to a university or art school first, kept my hand in amateur game development through mods and hit the ground running, once I had graduated.
A college education isn't essential to succeed in game development, but it will help you when it comes to dealing with the harsh realities of the industry and life outside of it.
Good luck! (You're gonna need it, hehe)

[Goldabar]

Wow too many replies to answer each one individually
So right now I'll say what impact the stuff you guys have said has had on me...

Firstly, someone said that school (highschool) was a waste of time. At the moment, I couldn't agree more (as I look to my left at the Religeous History of Australia assignment that I'm doing, sitting on my desk...FFS when will the hurting stop...) but I also realize Uni can be very different, as you get to do that stuff that you'd like to spend your life doing. Right now after reading all of these posts I'm leaning towards going to Uni, which sucks, you bastards I wanted you to say "don't go to Uni" LOL. Nah joking, this is all great advice


Steven, I have thought about showing him this thread a lot, but I'm still undecided. He honestly finds it hard to believe anything that comes off the net, so he'd probably think I just made this thing up myself or something, who knows. Don't worry tho, right now I'm not bitter towards him or anything, we're still talking and all that, I'm just sick of putting in all this hard work all the time and still seemingly gaining no respect from my family. My brother and sister give me a hard time about my work, my Mum still doesn't believe I'm going to be paid for the work I've done on Tactical Ops (even though I've shown her the contract and I'm due to be paid in the next few weeks) and of course my Dad just thinks I "spend too much time on the computer".

But yes, right now because of this thread I'm seriously leaning towards going to Uni. One problem with that is that my parents are hell-bent on making sure I still live at home when I go to Uni. The problem being that the Graphic Design course I'd like to do is in the same town as Irrational (Canberra). Another option is to go to Newcastle University (any Australians here will know where I mean). Bah now I have to admit to my Dad I'm having second thoughts, screw you all heheh

Asking Irrational for some help doing Uni is an excellent option though, and a good compromise that'd suit both me and my parents, apart from the moving away from home thing. Also yes I have considered that fact that if I get a job straight away I have less chance of finding the love of my life (erm a girl), which really scares me to be honest

So I guess now I have to speak to him about all this stuff, thankyou all very much for the advice, keep it coming if anyone hasn't posted

Some questions from me first: For those of you here that have worked in the game industry, just how terrible are the hours? Like how many hours a day on average would you work? And also, is the rest of the team really THAT terrible when it comes to respecting the mappers? I really hope not, and if so, if I go to Uni I guess a new goal will have to be to learn all the other aspects of game design. Except for programming. I think I have the brains to be a good programmer but the idea of spending my day's coding makes me fall asleep

Oh one more thing, that Fatbabies forum is scary, I doubt even if I was one of those guys that I'd hang out there or talk in the tarded way that they all seem to speak

[Goldabar]

Awesome, hmm I missed that heh thanks, I'm gonna go search for it at Dymocks this week

*edit* was I seeing things or was there a post here 2 seconds ago about a book on lighting and rendering?

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Goldabar ]

[mythwarden]

Goldabar,

I found myself working up to 6-7 days a week at times and averaged 12-14 hour days. We call this "Crunch" mode. The unfortunate thing about Crunch Mode is that they often span out over months at a time rather then weeks. I know some guys at Blizzard who spent over a year in Crunch Mode working on Diablo II.

As far as your concerns for your field; Designers are respected, so don't worry about that. You gain respect by your skill, regardless of your chosen path.

In regards to Jeremy Birn's post-


I would suggest getting his book "{digital}LIGHTING & RENDERING" if your serious about this type of work. Most the professionals I know have it, including myself.

It's by far one of the best sources for digital artists out there.

-myth

edit- lol, sorry about that. I rewrote it in order to answer your questions. Your post wasn't up when I originally posted. ;-)

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: mythwarden ]

[Goldabar]

Heh, I thought I saw that post

Thats the kind of hours I was expecting, and I have been through crunch mode myself for the past 2 months but on a smaller scale because of school. So 7 hours of school, get home, walk into my room and fix bugs until maybe 11pm. It didn't stress me all THAT much but I can see how things would get worse over time, of course. But I'm not afraid of hard work

A year in crunch mode tho.....man, for Diablo2. That's kind've wierd to be honest
For various reasons

[mythwarden]

It's not you that will fear the hard work, mate. It will be your family that does.

Your children.

Regardless of your decision, good luck my friend. ;-)

[Goldabar]

*sigh* things are harder than they need to be by the looks of it
ANy of you guys been through crunch mode while still having a wife/children?

[Goldabar]

Just got of the phone with my Dad (they're at Sydney today, my family. The Royal Easter Show. I've just been doing some school homework, so I stayed home).

When he got on the phone I told him that I came here to ask for opinions etc and the smartass kind've attacked me again, I said that half of you seem to have gone to Uni, half haven't, and that each one of you seems to have gotten along well in your own ways, with or without Uni. So straight away he says "yes but how do they support themselves. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but how do they" (in a smartass tone, of course )

Seriously guys, he thinks that you all live in cardboard shanties and make a living from art, and by poking berries up your noses for the entertainment of paying customers

I'm sick of this shit, I'm sick of trying to be honest and mature when I speak to him and having him cut me down FFS

I guess one thing I could do here is get a response from one of you (Madsamoan, you'd be fricken perfect) on how you've gotten along with your career, and how well you've been able to support yourself. I don't need figures of payment or anything like that, just how hard your life has been. Then maybe I can show it to my Dad and he'll leave me alone for a few more months

[razzak]

my dad is the same and its killing me, worse even my dad expects meto go to oxford cambridge imperial or ucl. right now im doing double maths physics economics and german. the norm subject is three, im doing 5. im expected to go into comp science or stuff like that. crunchtime aint gonna be a problem for me he he he. i dont know what jobs are out there, and im still deciding, so your not alone. what id say is definitely dont miss out on uni, cos its the kind of experience you will never have the chance to take again. sit down with your dad and tell him what you are going to do, and prepare yourself with some good answers. and this is probably gonna be the most important argument youll ever have with him. if he freaks out and screams, scream back, show him that youre passionate about it. show him that it hurts you and that you want his support. also tell him that its you who is going to uni, that its you who is going to do all the work, that its you who is going to live youre life, not him. theres no two ways about it. sit down, get printouts, put a few weeks of research into it. also you seem to be quite dependant on that company youre with. you havent even met the people. make youre decisions not conting on them. good luck man, you so remind me of myself, youre not alone out there.

[turnip]

First and foremost this is YOUR life. As much as they love you and raised you, the onus is on you to decide on a very crucial step of your life.

I was put in your same situation...and I listened to my parents because they did offer some wisdom. Currently I'm studying compsci in university. Not exactly loving it but don't mind it much. This is basically my alternate route. Something I can fall back on in case I don't make it big in the art world. But my true goal, still lies in art and gaming industry. I had initial thoughts of art institutes (seeing that I actually have a chance at getting scholarships there)...but then, universtiy is just a more well rounded experience.

Anyway, I'm not exactly in the gaming industry (I color comics with spare time, fun fun). I'm not promoting post secondary education either. It just depends on what you value the most and how well you can fortell the future. However, if you truly do not wish to go through university...please do not It's only going to make the experience worse for ya.

There are a very limited number of degrees that can be even helpful in your field....well just one or 2, a bachelor in computer science or finearts. 4 years in university doesn't teach you enuff skills in the industry. It basically flexes ur brain muscles and time management skills since all the stuff you can learn yourself.

So ask your dad what kind of degree he wishes for you to get. If he's not sure, and thinks you should just goto university for the hell of it..then i think he should be less stubborn and put some thought into it

Good luck!

[P'tit Ben]

Just to give a different point of view, I think that your Dad really respects you... in the sense that if he did not, he would never insist on university... Why don't you ask him why he thinks University is the way and why it is so important for him?

Anyway, about the video games job, I think that MadSamoan has made the point. He has greatly summarized what it is that working in VG field.

I'll support his point by adding that It is a harsh work, that has nothing in common with what people think of video game development. It looks like a charming job, but it is in fact a job like any other with its bad sides. I worked for Infogrames 6 years (that I left last October to create our own video games company with work-friends), and let me tell you that what helped me to "survive" in this environment were the skills I learnt before working.

Perhaps that when you worked on Tactical Squadron it was fun and interesting because you were an independant group, and that you were not really driven by Infogrames (I think they only bought your game once nearly finished, right? and ask few modifications for the gold master) but I assure you that once you're really driven by a company like Infogrames, it is not the same fun... I won't extend myself on this subject as Infogrames gets on my nerve right now

And if you still have the possiblity to wait before entering in the VG-workforce and sharpen your skills a couple of year, just do it! it is not a big sacrifice since this conditions your life for the next 50 years.

And by the way, I do not live in a cardbox! I earn a decent salary as an engineer. I started living on my own after graduating, like a lot of people in VG. It is a job, like any other...

Good luck anyway in your life. Whatever your choice, do not regret it! As long as it is YOUR choice...

[Freddio]

I dont have have any comments,

but think of all the Uni parties you'll miss

[Goldabar]

Ah, greetings fellow person-who-has-been-burnt-by-Infogrames

Hmm Tactical OPERATIONS (*cough* LOL) was pretty much made from the ground up after IFG picked us up. It had been a MOD previously but almost an entirely new team was put together for the commercial game, including me joining just as the real work started about 4 months ago. We made the game very, very quickly and I'm not even going anywhere near discussing Infogrames behaviour here...

I realize that my dad respects me and has always planned on me going to Uni because of his high expectations for my future. This is mostly coz' I've gone great at school. I was the Dux in primary school (Aussies should know this term) and had a whole bunch of other academical achievements through highschool, and still have them coming in, so he's never really doubted that I'd go to Uni, actually until a while ago they had the whole "you're going to be a doctor/lawyer" kinda thing going on.
The problem is, I know what Uni course he'd like me to do. Industrial Engineering, Architecture, basically something that will get me near his line of work (coal mining, seriously EVERY person on my Dad's side of the family is close to coal mining. Even my Aunties are all married to coal miners. Bleck...)

Also, I am thinking about doing a graphics design course (been thinking about it alll day heh) but then I keep thinking about the stuff we'll be doing, such as advertising, and it really turns me off. Some kind of traditional arts degree would be FANTASTIC, but can you get a degree in this and does it really have much of an impact on employers?\

BTW my dad (and family) is home now from Sydney. By dad has mentioned anything and I've been hiding in here in my room working on assignments for school. I asked my mum if she'll talk to him but she won't, and my Dad is either sorry for being too harsh on me or he can tell that I'm pissed/kinda sad and he doesn't know what to do. Tomorrow I'm going to print some posts from here and give them to him, and I'm thinking of grabbing either one of you guys, or the LD I know from Epic, or one of the guys from Irrational to sit down in ICQ or MSN or something and answer some questions he can throw. Might make him feel better, we'll see.