[keredleung]

why 4 fingers? not 5?


anyone knows?

[Blind Tree Frog]

Easier to draw quickly?

[worm]

the rest of the body is simplified so the same goes with the hands.. it has to do with the level of detail on the character. If mickey had 5 fingers, it would stand out..

[eyewoo]

Is this a real question...????

[gigatron]

Cheap american cartoons (me hugs weirdo proportional anime)

[J-D Leon]

sometime i just dont understand something,

is american that lazy to draw someting in more detail or is it just because no matter what kind of shit they draw, ther are still tons kids watch their cartooN?

i think most likely is the reason two.
you dont see alot of pretty cartoon draw by americans.
and disneyworld is a joke, i always think it is. how can micky mouse be loved by soo many kids for more than 5 decades? when i was a little kid i already have this question. mickey mouse certainly not an eye candy and the story isnot interesting.

ok. i can go on and on.
the point i want to point out is, people live in north america definately need to improve. otherwise the japanese will take over the animetion industry in here (dragonball z, gun dam, pockymon, sailermoon, digitmon, vision of escapflowne....) vs (the simpson?, future rama?, beast machine?)

they cant compete, it is like water or pepsi. which one would u choose. even those water seems healthier, but who cares? we want someting taste good. and from tv, we want something looks good and something that we can relate on.

have you seen alanta the lost continen? the artists who drew that movie was like "ohh, i dont care about if the fingers square shape or not, as long as i got a good story line and thousands theatres play my movie thats enough." wel, it is something always itching me what i was these kind of stuff. why can they do thing a bit more seriously?

Power puff grl is a some thing new, i give credit to the creator. i dont know if it is created by american or japanese. but it definately someting breakthrough for american. because they finally realized, with some colorful cute little girls would intrest soo many people.

i guess i have seen more animation than anyone here in thise board. i have see many super-deform characters from japanese animation. the proportions werenot right. but still they out perform other competetor.

what is the force that pulling people to draw better looking cartoon?


can you tell the style from the picture above? do u have any memoery inside you that tell u which group drew this?

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: JD Leon ]

[xmmx]

Ohh come on now. I also have a strong distaste for Disney and for Mickey mouse. but that is only one type of animation in north America and to generalize all north America into this type of animation just is not right. Disney is just one company and the reasons for it's popularity is mostly that it was one of the first.
just my 2 cents on the subject anyway

[Blind Tree Frog]

What does proportions have to do with quality of show? I'd rather watch looney toons then most anime, simply because even bad looney toons is better then a lot of anime (there is a lot of anime, and a lot of it is crap, much is good, much is crap, just like with anything)


Batman is/was excellent and in no way really proportional. Same with most of these current superhero cartoons (Superman, JLA, Batman Beyond). Powerpuff girls is excellent and doesn't even pretend to be proprtional. Hell must of Cartoon Networks' prime time line up is pretty good and not much any of it is realistic proportions.

[Dr. Bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JD Leon:
sometime i just dont understand something,

is american that lazy to draw someting in more detail or is it just because no matter what kind of shit they draw, ther are still tons kids watch their cartooN?

i think most likely is the reason two.
you dont see alot of pretty cartoon draw by americans.
and disneyworld is a joke, i always think it is. how can micky mouse be loved by soo many kids for more than 5 decades? when i was a little kid i already have this question. mickey mouse certainly not an eye candy and the story isnot interesting.

ok. i can go on and on.
the point i want to point out is, people live in north america definately need to improve. otherwise the japanese will take over the animetion industry in here (dragonball z, gun dam, pockymon, sailermoon, digitmon, vision of escapflowne....) vs (the simpson? LOL, future rama? LOL, beast machine? LOL)

---

Japanese anime animation focuses more on technical stuff, and less on emotion.....expression and such.
While American animation focus more on what Japanese animation is lack of. But some animation have the best of both world.......etc

Both are unique in their own way so dont try to insult the other.

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Dr. Bang ]

[Sharper-Image]

This is retarded. That is why they are CARTOONS. They don't claim to be realistic representations of ANYTHING.

Why the hell are all the Simpsons yellow? Why did many of the Thundercats seem apparently homosexual? Why were the ninja turtles named after prominent sculptors EXCEPT for Leonardo? And finally, why the FUCK was Captain Planet ever created?

Cartoons are fantasy, people.

[StrangeFate]

It's mainly for speed matters. Leaving out a finger speeds up production a lot as you don't just save 1 finger but 1finger * 20frames/sec * chars on screen.

At the end of the day you save insane amounts of hours that can be spent better elsewhere.

I dunno the backround of it but i guess that smaller budgeds and teams (if there were teams at all) and little initial interest back in the days the cartoons were born led to such decisions.
Nowadays i'd find it odd anyways if a misfigured character like Micky mouse had 5 fingers, everyone's used to see such styles going with 3 or fingers.

[turnip]

this is like...sad

[FSME]

The problem with Anime is that it stretches things out forEVER. Think about DBZ: it took them like soooooooo long to get rid of all their bad guys.
On the other hand: what's so bad about Futurama? I haven't laughed that hard in years! And it's partly computer-animated which seems to be a new trend in the cartoon industry (see the Atlantis movie).

But that's not the point here. The point is: Good is whatever you say is good.

Oh, and they only have 4 fingers 'cause it's easier to draw. Back in highschool I used to draw everyone and everything in cartoons and I never counted their fingers but now that you're pointing this out: yeah, it's easier to draw. Five fingers is simply one too much.

[keredleung]

THanks guys reply.
save time? so simple reason?
why dont they draw 3 fingers? or even no , just like doramon.

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: keredleung ]

[fuel_99]

*psst*
"finger"

JDLeon: probably a market thing and not a lack of realistic-drawing artists.
"Tiny Toons" just sells better than any "Heavy-Metal" Movie because the comic consumers are mostly children.. at least thats my guess.

[eyewoo]

Interesting opinions... Just wanted to chime in with an historical perspective...



Before even I was born, in 1928 Walt Disney and Steamboat Willy (the original Mickey Mouse) were virtually inventing cartoon animation as a business.

I presume everyone knows that, but from reading some comments, I'm not sure...

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: eyewoo ]

[sacrelicious]

Has anyone seen the new He-Man on Cartoon Network? It's a perfect example of an American studio emulating Japanese animation styles and falling flat. The character/vehicle/setting designs are pretty boring and the animation is not very good. Plus, everybody's now a martial arts expert. I'll watch a cartoon with a retarded story as long as the art is good. But I watched the premiere yesterday and felt like I wasted my time.

[Drew]

When Steamboat Willie came out, cartoons were played in movie theaters and were meant for general audiences. So, much like modern cartoons like Toy Story, some of it was meant for kids, some jokes the kids weren't meant to catch on to, and most of it was for the whole family. So we know that Mickey wasn't given 4 fingers just because children didn't care/notice.

Check out that pic of Willie a couple of posts above. See how he's totally black? Whenever he passes an arm in front of his body, that black on black makes it difficult to register what's happening. The same problem happens with fingers. Fingers are all bunched up together and can be a real pain to stage. In animation, staging is making the motion of a character easy to read. So instead of having a black blob at the end of Willie's arms, Disney decided to give him fewer fingers. This was really common in those days as well.

BTW, Disney really invented the animation as a movie business with Snow White, the first full length animated feature. Steamboat Willie was the first with sound.

[gigatron]

I watched alot of cartoons (as in waaaaaaaaaaaay too many) from looney, to disney to other jack cheap gone bankrupt cartoons even russian cartoons etc... and i watched a ton of anime from some of the cheapest old and new anime (even pokemon heh) to some of the best anime such as akira, princess mononoke, etc...

I have to pick anime over NA cartoons... i am kinda tired to put down facts but i firmly stand by anime...the sad thing though is that na schools (most) dont accept anime as a style AND THAT PISSES ME OFF! You know what I was told? A couple of things... well they dont accept anime from me because i need to draw more realistic and ok i agree to that ill practice more traditional realistic human drawings sure... then i was told (and this ticks me off) that japanese animation is not on par with NA animation... schools (this was with sheridan) only accept NA standards of quality and not foreign standards... GRRRR then next when i came with a good facts the answer was, well u see we try and only accept ppl who we can shoot out directly into companies (disney, etc...) in north america... and we cant send ppl to japan etc... they dont accept non-oriental ppl into companies... WTF? I love anime im an animeholic and when i study classical animation afterwards ill draw as damn as i please... not american cartoons... if its not accepted well then ill move from canada and to japan and ill find a damn way.. bumt it ticks me off not to accept me cause i dont have a NA style.. wtf? Blah im rambling im tired... but

[atomicmonkey]

Gigatron,

Most NA schools wont accept ANY style. They don't want you to have a style. They want you to be able to draw, and draw well. They are there to teach you the fundamentals of animation, and the easiest way to teach it is through the basics.. not cluttered up with a style.

Besides, if there is any reason for the dislike towards anime at these schools, it's because half of the scenes I see in these anime shows on aren't even animated well.. or for that matter, animated at all!

Like when a warrior jumps up to strike someone... instead of showing the jump, they'll show him in a still pose with all these flashing lights around him. Sure, it's cool and all, but is it a good animated sequence? No, it's barely animated at all. More like a comic book that flashes.


Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of anime. I also, however, dislike a lot of it. This is an entirely different discussion that what this thread started as, though, so I'll get to the point.

The real reason why Mickey has 4 fingers has already been given. If his fingers are questioned though, then why is he wearing gloves? And what the hell is up with those shorts? Well, it's a cartoon... it can be whatever it wants.

[ August 17, 2002: Message edited by: atomicmonkey ]

[Socar MYLES]

Well, this seems a little obvious...but maybe it's because mice only have four fingers on their front paws...and he is Mickey MOUSE, not Mickey Human.

[keredleung]

Thanks Socar MYLES.
In fact, mouse got 4 fingers. Therefore they draw 4.
Later animators follow this trend. (i think)

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: keredleung ]

[egerie]

Comparing Asian animation with North american animation is totally irrelevant. 2 different styles, 2 different cultures etc.

Plus JD Leon, today's TV animation in North America is about making MONEY. Now about making kids marvel in front of their tv screens. And reguarding the American bashing : numerous shows are produced in Canada anyways (Papyrus, Arthur, Flight Academy, Lost world, etc.).

5 fingers implies realistic animation which is a heck of a lot harder to animate. As it was mentionned before, it's a heck of a time saver when you animate a CARTOON..

Disney IS making great animation. I loved Stitch ;p
*skitters off* "Depetepetah!"

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: egerie ]

[Dekard]

24fps x 60 seconds = 1440 frames/minute

That's 1440 fingers x 2 they didn't have to draw.

[J-D Leon]

why dont they just draw with a circle and 5 sticks to represent the head, body and arms and legs to save time.?

thats not a convincing reason. if they can leave the finger out. why dont they just play the blank cell on the tv screen.

i can even tell what will move in the tv screeen when i look at the cartoon, because the charactor and the background dont even match the color they use.!

[balistic]

Do you want to be the guy who pays for a team of skilled artists to spend an infinite amount of time perfecting an animation?

Cartoons and anime are not fine art, they are business. Do you think the artists who worked on Ghost in the Shell did it for art's sake? They did it to pay their rent.

And a studio doesn't have a limitless supply of cash . . . they have financial backers who want to see a return on their investments.

Grow up and work as professional artist, and you will understand why corners get cut.

[keredleung]

pro and con of drawing 4 fingers?
i get a summary for myself.

Artistically: con
financially: pro

just depend on your animation.
For my animation, i will draw 5 fingers but one eye.

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: keredleung ]

[Dekard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dekard:
24fps x 60 seconds = 1440 frames/minute

That's 1440 fingers x 2 they didn't have to draw.

---

They had weeks to accomplish a 3 minute mini-film. This was a big feat in the early years of animation. Mickey was created in the early days of animation.

You are comparing 'modern day' anime to yesteryear classic animation. It's just a shortcut to get the animation out the door.

Other shortcuts are "running sideways" like scooby doo or the Flintstones you can change the background and use the cels over and over and over.

Adding a necktie so you can reuse parts. (Yogi bear or almost any Hanna Barbara character) you don't see the neck line where the body and neck meet this way you can swap out parts easily and cheaply without having to paint a new cel every time.

Face is a stationary cel with mouth, eyes blinking (cels on top) that move to fake your perceptions.

Even your beloved 'anime' takes shortcuts as stated above one pose with flashes, etc. ghost in the shell had 45 seconds of elevator footage with limited animation where you heard them talking as you saw the back of their heads. It's all about conveying the idea while saving time and money in the process. That's why you'll rarely see exquisite detail in background imagery in animations you have to decide how far you can go with the limited amount of time and money to draw a line somewhere.

(They used to also have to re-use cels back in the day they were so expensive..So shortcuts had to be made for monetary savings and time savings.

Disney gets bashed alot but you can tell a great difference in just two of the Disney releases. Tarzan was a nicely animated film, in Tarzan 2, you can see the money and shortcuts used to cut corners.

[Dekard]

Take an Animation History class or two as well, you learn it's not that anime is better or worse it's just another style. Businesses don't necessarily won't style. They want someone who can draw the basics and once you have those down 'they' can teach you to draw how they want it done. You will rarely ever find a job where they will hire you to do what 'you' want to do.. It's almost always gonna be how 'they' want it done..

[liv the fish]

Here's a quote that is supposed to be from one of Walt Disney's books:

"Leaving the finger off was a great asset artistically and financially. Artistically, five digits are too many for a mouse. His hands would look like a bunch of bananas. Financially, not having an extra finger in each of 45,000 drawings that make up a six-and-one-half-minute short has saved the studio millions."

Maybe someone, if feeling especially bored, can confirm this

later,
Brian H.