[ceenda]

Well said Socar.

Heh, if someone can be paid for kicking a ball around a field I'm sure artists are in a good position to expect payment for their work.

[ZippZopp]

you are totally correct here. correct me if i'm wrong, but i would think that most of us here started drawing and painting because it is enjoyable. Thats initally why i started drawing, because i enjoy doing it. it started off as a hobby, but now i'm a student and i'm looking to make a living off of some form of art. i think most people initially see it as a hobby, something we enjoy doing and therefore they feel like its no big deal for me to draw or paint something for them. While i do get enjoyment out of it and i love the look on someones face when they see what i've created, i still need to break even for all the materials (oil paints aren't cheap) and also make some money for the amount of time that is put into a piece. Thats my feeling on it........

[V Shane]

Well said Socar!

I have been in the RPG/Fantasy field now for 12 years, I even get potential clients that want free work or "you'll get publicity". no, not from a no name start up company.

Gotcha beat on the b/w though (in a fun way ) I did 200 since June last year. and everyone of them paid and published.

[SuperFish]

Very true, Socar.

If a publisher ask a lawyer to handle a case for them, would they pull the same "it would be a great experience" crap with them? or a accountant for filing their tax? I don't think so.

The only difference is lawyers and accountants has a great power to put these business into serious trouble. Simply because their profession is based upon "knowing how to get in and out of trouble"(no offence). Camparing that to artists, while polishing artistic skill is the main focus, one often become weak protecting oneself from scams like that.

I feel sorry that an artists often has to be burnt before realizing that.

[gigatron]

Socar, good job bro! I agree, that last post was just.. ARGH the guy just pissed me off in the manner he did all of his posts.. No respect.. ANYWAYS.. What's done is done, glad you made this post... I am not pro artist just a learner (but hopefuly someday...) I only began work on a commercial game for the first time myself with a brand new team and we are going to earn from profit... now.. we know each other so ya... but the way that guy phrazed everything was disgusting...

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aber:
From his first post he simply stated he was looking for someone to help him work on a project without the possibility of payment. HE STATED THIS VERY CLEARLY.

---

Maybe if he had left it at that, there wouldn't have been such a furor. But he had to go on...and on... About what an "opportunity" this was, and about his "high standards" and how good an artist he was. And then he went on about how he wanted someone with all this experience and skill, (but simultaniously had little experience or skill, which is why they'd want to jump at his great "opportunity"). And the "paying whichever is less" offer was really the icing on the cake.

quote

Quote:

he was actually looking for ameutures to assist him.

I think the correct way to spell "ameutures" is "suckers".

quote

Quote:

Someone with free time, and an interest in building a portfolio and resume material.

While he'll make the money. He made that clear.

quote

Quote:

You degraded his chances of actually finding someone by making the post look like he is an idiot.

This is too easy to pass up. Do you think that maybe he ended up looking like an idiot because...well...his posts MADE him sound like one? We quoted him liberally. His own words were what did him in.

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[gigatron]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he was actually looking for ameutures to assist him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the correct way to spell "ameutures" is "suckers".

^^^^^^
LOL!!!

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aber:
Did he provided an example to his measurement of high standards, or experience? No, he didn't.

---

What do you call this?

quote:

---

originally posted by Light (in the other thread):

Ideal candidate can show/have:

1. High quality original pixel art work.
2. High quality animated pixel art work.
3. Real game work experience esp GBA.
4. High quality free hand sketches
5. Time, speed, motivation, and love of games.

---

I guess "high quality" is subjective (he didn't give links to the quality of artwork he'd expect) but who does that? He wants "real game work experience" but then he later says that this would be a good "opportunity" for someone with "little experience or skill". So which is it?

quote

Quote:

No, that is you're wording. Ameutures, which is just that.

The word "Ameutures" does not exist. Look it up on Dictionary.com. You won't find it. The word "suckers" does exist, and is the appropriate word in this case.

quote

Quote:

And man, I thought artists were a little more humble in cases like this.

Why? And what is so unique about "cases like this"? What "like this" do you mean? Someone who won't pay, but wants to make sure HE gets HIS money?

quote

Quote:

The fact is, he has clearly stated what his intentions are,

Yes, this is what he said (it's real clear)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Light (in other thread):
You would be required to work without a guarantee of payment. You would be payed based based on either a pre-determined fee or a percentage of the profits (whichever is less).

---

That's not clear at all, and moreover, it sounds damn greedy and cheap.

quote

Quote:

I am done with these petty accusations. The more you people post, the more you make examples of your own self mockery.

I am trying to be kind here. Is English not your native tongue? I have a hard time following you sometimes.

[gigatron]

Hmm well said, I think its time to finally put this matter behind :/

[Socar MYLES]

Oh, Aber, I'm not usually so blunt, but learn to fucking read. As I said in Light's thread, my suggestion that he reword his ad was sincere--I didn't jump down his throat by any stretch of the imagination. I just figured he'd have a better chance with some revised wording. You were the one who wandered way off topic by assuming people's suggestions had something to do with ego.

[EDIT] *ahem* Okay...tone of above post: PMS. Sentiment behind it: genuine. I'm not out to insult people, but I really do think some of this needed to be said--not just with regards to the other post that's been mentioned, but with regards to ALL the people who expect artists to deliver diamonds for the price of paste jewels.

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: Socar MYLES ]

[Socar MYLES]

Okay, this might sound like a rant, but I'm not trying to attack anyone here...I just want to try and explain a couple of things, for people who might not know.

Something that was said in another thread really rubbed me the wrong way--I mention it in a new thread rather than commenting on it there because this is something I've been hearing a lot.

Just what is up with people who think it's arrogant or presumptuous for artists to expect to be paid for their work? I've heard so much of this crap lately, both from people--not family or friends, but complete strangers--who are irritated that I won't paint random pictures for them for nothing, and from people who think all artwork should be public domain, usable by anybody for anything.

I think I'm a decent sort of a person. I don't soak clients for as much cash as possible by slugging along to inflate my work hours, charging for small revisions, or any such nonsense. I cut people deals if they're buying a lot of work. Hell, on some occasions, I've even worked for a fraction of what I actually need just to help out a friend or a company that's just starting out.

But my work isn't free. I want my licensing fees if people are going to reproduce my work. I want to be paid for the time I put in on commissions and contracts.

If anyone thinks that's arrogant, then think about this: How else am I supposed to pay the rent? "Free publicity" doesn't directly put food on my table or clothes on my back. I've got an advertising budget already--I've got magazine ads and Internet ads and a website--I've got my publicity covered. What I, and all the other hard-working artists out there, really need, is money.

Not all art jobs pay that well, though. The main field I work in at the moment, sf&f RPG illustration, pays okay. But to get that okay pay, I've got to work pretty damn hard. Ask anyone in my position--that is, just breaking into the market, with slightly over a year's fully professional experience. It's not always easy to pay the bills on art alone. It can be done, but, unfortunately, it doesn't leave an awful lot of time for "just for fun" projects or "just for experience" work.

To give you some idea of what it's like for a beginning artist, in the latter half of last year, I did 52 grayscale illustrations, 18 (I think) full-colour commissions of one sort and another, and about 20 pictures for school. Yeah, art school...it eats up time like nothing on earth. That's quite a bit of painting.

So I think it's pretty presumptuous for people to get angry with artists or call them arrogant for admitting that they simply do not have time or energy to devote to unpaid work. Trust me, I hate to turn anyone down, and so do most artists--but it's an uphill battle getting started in this business. And working for experience just isn't enough.

Some beginning artists are fortunate (unfortunate?) enough to have a day-job that covers some bills, or live with their parents, or receive government grants--but many of us, myself included, have none of these luxuries.

Hey, I wish I was well-known and well-paid enough to work on whatever happened to look cool, regardless of immediate profit. But I'm not. And I don't think it's arrogant at all to admit that I generally can't work without pay. That's just the way things are.

[eyewoo]

Ditto on my comment about your comment in that other thread... "Well put!"

Not only a fine artist, you are also cool...

[bearsclover]

Oh, AMEN. Preach it sister!

My time is definitely worth something. I don't have the inclination to piss it away. Since I was 15, I've drawn portraits. Since I was 15, I've had people get "offended" because I wanted to charge for my portraits, or that I wanted more than $30 for 10 hours of work.

[Directing my rant towards the yahoos who do this:] Give me a freakin' break. If you were a mechanic or a doctor, would you appreciate having everyone and their brother asking for freebies? And, bear in mind�while I love my art, I realize it is not a life-sustaining product. It isn't milk for your baby. To act so offended because I want you to PAY for my time is not appropriate. YOU DON'T HAVE TO OWN MY ARTWORK. You are not entitled to it. My time is my own. You have nothing to hold over me�the "honor" of working for you�well, that isn't going to work. The "opportunity"�don't make me laugh. The "experience"�I've had enough experience getting ripped off, thanks.

Right now I am working on my own project, that may (or may not) get me some good money down the road. If nothing else, it will be a great source of pride for me and my family. I am lucky enough to have a job that allows me to work on this project while at work. (It's a weird job�too long to explain.) You would have to offer me something pretty tasty to pry me away from this project. And so far, offers of "no pay" aren't cutting it. [/end of rant...for now]

Thanks so much, Socar, you put it very well.

[RoadMaster]

Methinks Light found the "delete post" button... oh well, his memory shall live on in here

[Socar MYLES]

Aw, man--I know where that delete button is, too--so if this becomes some heinous Light-memorial thread, it's SO gone!

[RoadMaster]

aw poopie doo... heh, we can only hope that mistake isn't made here again

[Tom Luth]

I'm afraid the thinking that "art should be free," and similar sentiments, is one all artists will have to deal with their entire career. I can only guess, but I assume that non-artists are so used to seeing art as a hobby, and seeing local art club parking lot shows where weekend painters will sell their paintings for pennies on the dollar, that they assume this is the norm.

I've tried to come up with a couple of brief and polite responses (presuming the request was polite) to people asking for free work. Such as: "Sorry, but this is what I do for a living to pay my bills," or, if I feel they won't get it, "Sorry, I'm booked solid!"

I don't get angry at posts asking for free help, as I would far prefer that over people who promise pay, and later decide they are unable to pay. I fear if posts asking for free art are too stringly discouraged, the same people will ask for artists, and offer pay, mistakenly thinking "when I sell this project and make millions, I can then pay the artist."

Oh well, just my two cents.