[Asurfael]

I've noticed that many people here paint in acryl (sp?) paints and oil paints besides doing digital painting. I've been struggling to learn how to do digital painting so that it looks like traditional mediums (in photoshop, no i won't change for painter), and i'm wondering if learning how to do 'real' paintings would help me much? I've only used watercolour when concerning actual paints, and some miniature paints for a few small pictures.

The problem is, getting canvases, brushes etc can be really expensive. So, is it worth for me to try to do some oil painting as well before trying to get the same effect in digital paintings? I've never used oil paints, and it'd cost me (maybe) too much. So would that be worth the price?

I'd *really* appreciate some answers on this. I want to improve myself as an artist and am willing to make monetary sacrifices for that. But I'd like to know if it's worth it before I use the money I'm supposed to buy food with on paints, brushes and canvases...

[Socar MYLES]

Well, since I like to paint with oils, and sometimes do the underpaintings for my digital work in acrylic (dries faster, can be scanned almost immediately), I'm a bit biased--but I think learning to paint with oil or acrylic is never a bad idea.

I don't use acrylic much, except for sketching and quick textures, so I'll just tell you what I think is good about oil. Oil paint is probably THE most forgiving medium there is--even more so than digital, in a way. If you make a mistake with watercolours, that's often you screwed. With oils, you can just scribble out the mistake and try again, just like you would in Photoshop. If you hate the whole painting, you can paint something else on top of it, so you don't waste money on new canvas or board.

Texture is the hardest thing to do digitally, but occurs naturally when you paint with oils. I found that when I first started using digital media, I had that whole flat, airbrushed Photoshop look going on. Even if you aren't using the airbrush tool at all, digital painting can still have that look if you don't watch out.

So, anyway, if you paint with oils, you can learn what kind of brushstroke gives what kind of texture, and you can use that understanding to figure out how to fake it in Photoshop. Some people get it right away. Some people (like me) take ages to bumble their way through it.

One thing I can say, if you want to get a natural-media look out of Photoshop: When you start painting, don't just get the fill tool and make the whole canvas one colour. Paint in your background colour by hand, and give it some slight variations. Then you have some textures and shapes to build on right from the start.

The gradient fill is evil.

Layers are the spawn of Satan!

Okay, layers aren't actually so bad...disregard that last. I just always paint on the wrong one every time I use them, which annoys me no end.

But, anyway, I think learning something about natural media is good--if nothing else, you can use them to paint quick and realistic textures for rush jobs--digital texturing can take time, after all.

[Asurfael]

thanks for the answer. i think i should try to find a class/course that has materials included to the cost, since I don't know anything about painting with oil and the equipment's expensive. I thought it might help but I needed some second opinion on that as well.

I think there are some courses like that available here. I think new ones start in the autumn. If i haven't mastered that in photoshop so far, I'll definately go.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to add... I know about the fill tool already. I never use the fill tool, and most of the time I don't use the smudge tool either. I try to stick with normal brushes and eraser, and just sometimes the smudge tool. I've been *trying* to follow the tutorials on your page... They've been very helpful, thank you.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: Asurfael ]

[Lee Yiankun]

Texturing seem easier for me to do than keeping the whole look of my painting. The only Traditional experience I have is with Color pencils. And with it, you have to pay close attention to details. Adding this here, that there. But since I started to learn Digital Art(Photoshop), the new medium has given me more possibilities to explore. And I'm not restricted by my old medium now.

And now I'm glad to have learn the Digital Arts.

[liv the fish]

How to get past those evil layers on a Mac

1) In version 5.5 (at least, I haven't worked with earlier versions enough to know), press (V) to select your pointer tool. Now hold down Cmd and click. Whichever pixels are directly under the pointer, those pixels' layer will be selected.

2) When using any tool, hold Ctrl + Cmd and click. You will get a pop-up list. This list is of all the layers that have pixels directly under you pointer.

3) In PS 7.0 (this might be in 6 also, I upgraded from 5.5 to 7.0), the pointer tool has a check box called Auto Select Layer. This will have the pointer select the layer with pixels directly under it when clicked.

See, with a few handy shortcuts, you can squash that devil

l.t.f.

[Joachim]

I agree with socar, traditional mediums gives a lot for free which you think is easier to create manually digitally, but doesn't have the same "snap".
WHen you say that you try to paint digital, with the attempt to make it look like traditional, I think that's both good and bad at the same time. Do you try to much, it will be pointless not just using the original media, which is better. But, to get a little bit of the qualities of the different medias into a digital drawing can be good for the overall look and style. But, to paint like traditional with a computer, don't really require that you sit down and try to make it look like f.ex oil. THe way to make that happen, for me atleast, is that you have to paint like if you would use that particular medium. Let's say oil, try to start and work out your painting like you would with an oil. Because in traditional mediums, it often requires that you often work in certain steps (not just one way though, but it requires a certain planning and that you use the medium for what it's good for). So, therefor I think it's good for every artist, even though you dig the computer, to learn a little from every kind of medium, to know how they behave. Also, it helps your thinking and how you work on the computer while painting a picture. Because the way traditional mediums forces you in a way, has it's good points. Computer has to many options, which means that an artist without too much experience can start a picture from the end to start, without even knowing that it could be easier or better to start different ways. -long and messy answer, but I'm just rambling my thoughts.

Oh and, everyone says Oil is so expensive (?)...why is that ? I don't feel the same way at all. You buy a certain amount of tubes -best quality and 2-3 brushes. Obviously in the beginning it's better with a few tubes, just make sure you got the some basic colors (thousands of books suggests different combinations there) and black and white. Then, those tubes and pencils will hold for a long time through many paintings. And, eventually you need to refill with a new tube or two, but never need to buy everything again. So, therefor it is infact not so expensive. Canvas, you can paint on acid free carton.

[Lee Yiankun]

The only trouble I had was with getting over Multiply. I used to do Anime/Manga,So Multiply was the best choice at first.
Then I found out that it restrict me within my own lines. Not allowing me to 'explore' more with my pics. So now I'm using Normal layers as default(guess most of you does this from the start right?).

In my case, I never had trouble with layers.
To me, Layers is the best thing available in Photoshop. it allows endless experiment without losing much. I think it's because I always Merge all of my layers once I gotten some part of my painting 'right' so I never use more than 15 layers at once.(ok, the first one I use 65 layers. but that was the only one)

----------------------
I'm a newbie...always.
As long as I don't know everything.
Until then, Everyone is my Mentor.

[bearsclover]

I pretty much agree with Socar, but I must protest! Layers are not the spawn of satan! I couldn't survive without them.

I have to say, without my traditional art skills (oils, acrylics, alkyds, you name it) I would have a far more difficult time with digital art. Not that I am any whiz with my digital art, but it's not bad. In fact, one of the FIRST (first first first) digital art pieces I did was this little piece (painted in Painter Classic) and I KNOW I would have been lost with Painter had it not been for my traditional art skills.

I agree with Socar - it's never a bad thing to have traditional painting and drawing skills. I consider digital art just another technique in my arsenal. I love all sorts of techniques, (pastels, watercolors, blah blah) and now I've added digital to my list of techniques. That's all it is.

[BlackPool]

When it comes to painting, I have no experience with traditional media. Heck, if it weren't for photoshop then markers would have been my only color medium.

However, I can testify to the ease with which a great understanding of traditional media can translate into digital.

On my last job there as a guy there who had done background paintings for movies like The Lion King and Anastasia.
We became friends and I showed him how to use Photoshop and he showed me how to paint. By the second night, he was cranking out masterpieces!

However, I don't think it's so much an understanding of how to apply paint to canvas as it is an understanding of color theory, value and how light enteracts with environments.

[Socar MYLES]

Well, oils CAN be pretty darn expensive. One way to drastically cut down on your outlay, however, is to be gentle with your brushes. I always buy new brushes almost every time I start a painting, because I am NOT nice to my brushes. This is a very bad practice, because it'll cost $40-$100 just to replace your brushes. So you should clean them carefully as soon as you are finished using them, then lay fan brushes flat with their bristles spread, and wrap pointies and flats in tissue paper to keep their form.

Another good way to save money is just buy the essentials, as far as colour goes--if you buy just a few tubes, you can mix most colours from them. I always buy these ones:

Burnt umber
Burnt sienna
Cadmium red hue
Phthalocyanine blue
Cerulean blue
Yellow ochre
Cadmium yellow light
Viridian
Red oxide
Lamp black
Payne's gray
Titanium white

You can get away with an abbreviated list by not buying yellow ochre, Payne's gray, red oxide, cerulean blue, and burnt sienna. Phthalocyanine blue can be replaced by ultramarine blue--they behave slightly differently, especially when you mix them. It is a matter of preference. Oh, and you don't actually HAVE to buy black paint--I almost never use it, myself. You can make "fake" black by mixing other colours for a richer effect.

You can save money also by painting on board, not canvas. If you use canvas, don't buy those damn pre-stretched deals you can get at most art stores. I've forgotten the worst brand name, but there's this one kind with thin stretcher-bars are low-grade pre-gessoed canvas, and a red label--these things are the WORST. It's better to stretch your own, or if you are too wimpy to do that (like me), pay someone else to do it for you. Lots of starving art students will do it. Or you can go to an art shop and ask them to recommend someone.

You can save on brushes if you buy the "store brand" at an art shop, instead of getting Winsor & Newton, and so forth. I tried this once with the Opus store brand, in Vancouver, and some bristles came off on my canvas and I had to pick them out. It was annoying. So I don't really recommend this.

I have just ordered some water soluble oil paint--I don't know how GOOD they are yet, but if they are good, they could save you a small amount on turpentine / whatever solvent you use.

[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Socar MYLES ]

[Asurfael]

Yea thanks and maybe I was a bit unclear about the thing I was going for... I'm not wanting to make my drawings look like they're done with oil or acrylic paints, I just want them to look more natural. So far I've been doing very rough sketches. You can certainly notice I don't have any experience with more liquid mediums, only pencil. I tend to use the same rough strokes.

As for multiply... I never used it since I didn't learn the neat stuff in photoshop until late. I did everything with just changing the brushes and colours and using layers. Then the smudge tool came along later. Nowadays I do use multiply as the layer properties when I'm doing cell shading. Once i get the right areas lined out, I make the layer normal, and then change the hue/saturation to make it a shadow. layers are good for that... I've seen some people use 15 layers for the stuff I'd use 2 on, that's a bit too much. I just start a new layer when I get one major part of the pic done and start another. <= stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic.