[Socar MYLES]

Basically...what do you like (and NOT like) to see in a crit?

Personally, I like to see suggestions I can actually use--whether general or specific. However, a simple "You need to work on colour" is less useful than some actual hints on how to improve colour handling. Still, if the person doing the critique hasn't got much time, I'd rather just get the basic catch-all suggestion than nothing at all. Hey, anything can be food for thought.

I don't really care about the skill level of the person doing the critiques, myself--especially since most of the best crits I get are from my boyfriend, who doesn't draw at all. Not only does he say "Hey, that guy's arm is WHACKED!", but he'll give me a detailed description of WHY it's whacked, and also put his arm in the position I was going for so I can see what I did wrong. A lot of the time, I get the same advice from him as I do from the most experienced artists I know.

I don't really get much out of "crits" on subject matter--in fact, it's a little annoying when people tell me to quit drawing rats, or suggest I paint mostly rats because I can't do anything else. As I mentioned to someone else in another thread, unless you're at art school, I can't really see the point of critiquing "artistic value", either, especially as applied to commercial/illustrative work. Saying "Well, that piece is technically good, but it couldn't be hung in a gallery" is, for me, anyway, utterly useless. Also, it's generally inaccurate--they have gallery shows for everything these days. I've participated in several, and even had a solo show or two, although I doubt I'd really go that way these days. (Too much work.)

I think it goes without saying that "u suck" comments are silly--I tend to just scroll right past the suckers.

The best crits are often the ones that point out both what IS working and what ISN'T. I had an awesome professor in my first year at Emily Carr who was really good at that, and I ended up managing to keep the things I was doing right (not that there were all that many at that point!), and slowly work away from the things I wasn't quite so good at. Before that, when I'd only heard the bad points, I just kept going around madly trying different styles and different ways of working, never realizing I WAS doing some things properly...just not others.

I think some of the worst crits I've had have come from art directors, shamefully enough. (Dammit--those guys should know better!) With some of the more embarrassing revisions, I've wished I could just sign the AD's name to the picture. The kind of crit I'm talking about is when someone, talking more or less out their arse, says something odd like "That guy's head is too big!", or "If you moved House A closer to House B, it would look better!" I always take a good look when I get that sort of comment--if the person making the comment is wrong, you can seriously whack out the perspective of the painting by making the changes anyway. Generally, if I get a crit I'm not sure about, I get a second opinion...and sometimes a third and a fourth, too, if there's still disagreement. My boyfriend's pretty much the ultimate authority, though. I swear, I don't know why the guy doesn't take up drawing....

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Socar MYLES ]

[Brain]

I find the best way is how I was taught during my Assessment and Workplace Training course, which is the "Kiss, Kick, Kiss" method. You've already described it, but it's pointing out what's already working, then identifying what could be worked on, and then ending on a positive note. I've tried to structure my crits like this everytime I post, and hopefully I'm helping out.

The other thing is definitely do what you've been doing with your boyfriend. Show your work to someone who isn't an artist for another opinion. You might get a fellow artist who'll ramble on and on about this hue needs tweaking to reduce the negative space around the mass' smaller extremeties. A regular person will prolly just say "He's thumb doesn't look right." And if you can find out why they think it's not right, bonus!

So yes, I agree with what you posted most definitely.

[Rogelio Olguin]

Very good points.

Especially in the idea of artistc value no one can tell what has value or not. I mean you have some standards of design.

I have my brother who does crits for me all the time looks at my work and says what looks odd and we talk about how to fix it

oh well... I can rant more about good VS bad crits... but well all the points are pretty much sumed up in your post Socar MYLES

I just wish we got more information in some parts than this looks bad this way... etc type posts.. more info like how to fix it and for the ones that do say how things can be fixed thanks

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: Rogelio Olguin ]

[roundeye]

i just post "good work" type comments on stuff i really like. sometimes i say why i like it. maybe cuz im too busy or lazy to say any more. maybe cuz i dont have much to "say" about "art". i think people need to hear if somebody simply likes it. for whatever reason. like when they work for 30 hours on a piece and its finally done its nice to hear a "looks great".

edit: oh things i dont like are comments on things that are purely taste oriented. like: "well, i dont personally like purple but...." who cares?

edit2 to add beers meaning ive been drinking:

[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[Socar MYLES]

Yeah...when I leave crits, roundeye, I pretty much do the same as you most times. I only give serious crits to people I know well...because I don't want to get up anyone's nose. Basically, if I don't know someone can take it, I don't crit. I know that's rather chicken, but several times burned, twice shy....

[bearsclover]

Very good points you have brought up.

I agree - you have to take into account what the person is trying to do. If they like drawing movie stars, that's what they like to do! Don't spoil their fun by bringing up your own personal opinions about Movie Star Portraits and Their Meaning in the World of Fine Art. And if a person wants to draw comic book characters, that's what they want to do. Don't try to talk them out of it, or judge them for it. Sheesh. I got a lot of that when I was a kid (I loved to draw movie stars). And guess what? Being able to draw celebrities is a great asset when you are from L.A. I've sold more than a few portraits to fans, and a few of my portraits have been commissioned by friends of actors (to be given as gifts). My childhood drawing experiences came in handy.

And as far as the artistic experience of the critiquer, it depends on what kind of critique they are giving. I ALWAYS need to get feedback from non-artists. I'll ask "Does this look right?" "Does this look like [Mel Gibson or whoever]?" I need to get feedback from an "average" person. And they can be extraordinarily helpful.

But if a non-artist or an inexperienced artist starts to sound like they are pulling high falutin' artsy fartsy ideas out of their ass, just for the satisfaction of "critiquing" and sounding clever, then I think they are barking up the wrong tree.

It also depends on the tone of the critique. Anyone can say "That area there is bothering me". But if anyone (especially a non-artist or less-experienced artist) is condescending or a little too eager to find mistakes, then I don't appreciate that. If they are going to dish out that kind of attitude about my work (or anyone else's work) then they need to get a little of that attitude directed at their own work. And if they don't DO any artwork, then I see their eagerness to find fault to be kind of cowardly - they can happily dish their "attitude" out, but since they are not artists themselves, they don't run the risk of taking it. (And if they ARE artists, they had better be prepared to receive the same "attitude" themselves, dammit!) And no, I am not specifically talking about any crits I've seen on this board. I am mostly thinking of some of the crap my big sister dished out to me when I was a kid!

I also agree with the "Kiss, Kick, Kiss" method. I've used this instinctively for years, and I know how well I respond to it myself. When someone can't even bother to find something nice (and there is always something nice, in just about ANYONE'S work, OK?) then I begin to wonder if they were raised by wolves!

I also agree with the person who brings in their personal tastes into the critique. Who asked for that? I don't want anyone to praise my work primarily because I use a lot of blue, (and they like blue). And, I don't want anyone to criticise my work because they have an aversion to blue. I expect them to look a little deeper than that!

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[Enayla]

I love to get crits concerning composition, anatomy, colour choice, and all the 'technical' bits of my paintings. They help me out very, very much, even though I can't always go back to actually change the picture - the crits are things I'll remember 'til my next painting and try to implement then.

I also pretty much only listen to criticism that is offered politely and respectfully. If I get a "you suck and your faces look all screwed up", I'm not very likely to take that to heart. I think it's important, though, not to try to 'excuse' yourself from any eventual crits... and as the one offering the help - accept if the artist doesn't actually agree with you.

On a more personal note, I don't mind people telling me how to draw, at all, but I get annoyed when I get told what to draw. As mentioned earlier in this thread, let people draw what they want to. If you don't like it, move on. It's not up to you to change the course of someone else's interests. I actually think it's pretty rude to go around handing out 'orders' on what other people should draw. It'd never even occur to me to ask Socar to draw less rats and, say, draw more big-chested females even if that was what I wanted her to draw (I love your rats Socar!)

Eh... well... anyway...

[Sedone]

I can't add much to what's been said, as I agree with most of it. A definite "amen brotha" to hating being told what to draw.

For the most part I suck at giving critiques. I'm okay if I'm in front of the person and pointing stuff out, but I hate critiquing online. Too much nuance gets lost in the ether between people's computers. My girlfriend can sometimes give me good critiques, but most of the time she thinks anything I do looks right, which is kinda pointless. Then again, I'm not going out with her for her critiquing ability.

[jezelf]

yeah.

I've always used constructive criticism. it's always been a way with me. I've read posts where people leave out the constructive bit.

I've not heard of the 'kiss, kick, kiss' method been phrased that way before - its a good analogy, though! :-)

Its important to remember we're all improving. all the time (I'm sure you've heard the saying 'when an artist stops learning you stop being an artist'(or similar)

With something like this place, I think it's fantastic that people post their work asking for criticism, so I believe in return that request should be treated professionally and with respect.

At the end of the day it's up to the artist being critiqued if s/he wants to take stuff on board.

As you know, art is an expression of the individual, so what people say about the aesthetics of your work is just their humble opinion(...as this post is mine), so take what you like, discard the rest.

It seems I'm preaching to the converted on this thread, though - but that's great to know :-)

good luck people.
cheers
Jez

[Light]

Really, the best critique should be devoid of judgements.


I think "critique" means a critical assesment. Critical doesn't mean harsh or negative -- it just means that critical.

But, when I speak of "devoid of judgements" the "observer" critiquer shouldn't make any judgements but rather observations:

Example.. I draw a face with the eyes and nose screwed up.

A proper critique would sound something like this:

I observe the that the angle of the center of the face is different from the reference.

The eyes in your drawing are not of equal size.

The mouth area has a dark outline around it and I observe this to not occur in the original (or reality).

----

However, critiquing this way would be very boring and hard for anyone but the best artist to understand. Plus, many times judgements are useful and easier pointed out then assesments.

Another problem with critiquing is "critiquing" compared to purpose. If a person doesn't state the purpose of a picture then it would be harder to critique.

A sketch for a game or a matte should not be critiqued with the same ideas in mind as a wall painting.

But, I'm going to stop or at least do less crtiquing as making critical assesments is often quite difficult for even I do sprinkle in judgements. Even on the worst pieces and best pieces I try to make critical assesments. And this of course is not easy to do.

Perphaps, I will offer to critique a few artist work who like my critiques or something.

[Light]

One other thing..

A "critical assesor" should he/she want to comment on the painting he shouldn't do it with an outright statement of opinion.

Rather, he should say "I observe that within my own self I find this picture to be boring."

Likewise, "I observe a pleasant sensation and a sense of wonder within myself when looking at this picture."

The worst critiques are

"god you used a photoshop flare"
"this is digital art"
"that looks like a mess"
"cool. great."
" "

--- Those aren't critiques at all but judgements.

[edible snowman]

maybe i'm weird, but i actually think being told what kind of things to draw can be helpful, if it's done the right way. For instance, if someone asks you "why do you just draw portraits all the time?" it might help you realize that all you can draw is someone's head and not much else. i think it helps you grow as an artist if you aren't really limited to subject matter. but this probably doesn't really apply to most of the people who posted above, i'm just pointing out that this kind of critique has helped me in the past.

[Bg]

I prefer overpaints/repaints and visual critique with few lines of text. Written crits only can be much harder to understand, are sometimes misunderstood and even simple suggestions can take a tremendeous amount of time to explain when you could just take a look at the repaint and see what he/she means immediately.

[Sumaleth]

The better an image is the easier it is to make useful comments.

For a good image you know the artist has put some work into it, knows something about the process, and you can generally find some elements that could benefit from a tweak here and there.

You just can't do that for images that need everything fixed. What do you focus on? How do you word it that they won't take offense? How do you describe a problem to someone who obviously won't be able to fix it for a few years?

If you get a comment on your image be happy no matter what it is. There's no guarantees about getting useful critiques, and there's not even guarantees that you'll even get a comment.

Always remember that the answer to 99% of all problems posted on these forums is; practice.

Row.

[The Magic Pen]

I agree with BG and the rest of ya actually, to bad we cant pay Mullins to stay home and do repaints all day cause when ever he does one im always like ...ohhhhhh...they really are probebly the most helpful ideal crit , but you have to get it from someone you respect I think or maybe it bugs certain people

[balistic]

Probably the worst critique I ever had, and I'm sure this person thought they were being helpful:

"You need to make it more interesting."

Well crap, why didn't I think of that?!

I informed him that his advice wasn't particularly helpful, and then he accused me of being insecure and snotty. I asked him again and again what I might do to make the piece more interesting, only to be countered with more extremely vague advice and personal attacks.

Eventually I got him to cough up something resembling critique:

"Your shadows say nothing," he said.

So I painted an image of my shadow flipping him off.

And then the moderator of highend3d.com deleted the thread

[Lee Yiankun]

What about repetitive comments.
I posted in forums that had people say one thing. then they all say the same thing!
"Hey Your thumb is off" then everybody goes and says the same thing 22 times!

I find that annoying also.( though "your picture looks great" after 30 times seems dull at some point. I still prefer it somewhat. -Shame on me- >D )