[Paqmann]

Hey all,
I'm a web site designer and I'm 17 years old (and male.) I work at an ad agency making web sites, and I've been indepently designing web sites since 1995.
I was in need of some community service hours, and a friend had asked me to make a web site about abortion (she had recently had an abortion, and was shocked at the lack of non-biased abortion information sites on the internet.) So I need to make a design that appeals to primarily 12 to 30 something year old females.. Calm soothing hip new etc. etc... But I can't just make it pink or whatever the stereotypes are about girl's sites, because I'm also in need of a site that guys won't have any trouble checking out.

Bleagh. So anyway I was wondering if anyone has any ideas.. I usually get a few pictures and just work my design around them.. And my first idea was somethin like a little girl in a meadow, ya know innocence peace happiness all that.. but I can't find a picture of that anywhere. anyway if anyone has ideas for effective color schemes or photography, I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks a ton,

-matt

[Dragonmun]

Erk... Yeah that one is a tough one.
=Oo=

Hmmm... As for a refference I'd suggest that you check out the local mall and see what they use there. Those palces are also geared toward the same target audience.

A kind of antique 20's nobility look for border graphics, might also be a nice touch to the page.

The hardest problem that you are going to face though, is the non-biased thing. As strange as this sounds, I'd highly recommend that you do not use pictures of babies, eyes, or things in grayscale.

-babies make the page seem pro-life.
-eyes indicate conflicting emotions, which can indead be depressing for someone having to face this decision.
-Grayscale images also can seem depressing.

No matter how you do it, this page is going to be more content heavy than it would be graphically oriented, so you might want to focus everything on the layout of the text in order to make everything interesting.

Here's a list of the browser compatible fonts that you ccan use without a problem. http://www.microsoft.com/truetype/fontpack/default.htm

The verdana font is a great choice for readbility.

[lalPOOO]

well theres got to be a ton of sites on abortion (non biased or biased) why not look around at them, and look at the kind of graphics they have.

[HawkOne]

This will sound harsh and I am sorry if you feel victimised ... I am more speaking to untrained designers/webdesigners in general.

This is why it is so hard for average consumers to find anything useful on the web, market research, and advertising are essential tools in order to understand target audiences and to be able to put the message where it will be heard. You say you work at an ad agency, and I therefore cannot believe that the managers have left it to you to do this work !!!???

Ad agencies should have at least one person who's a specialist in marketing and market research ??!! And that person should also have been trained in not just finding an agegroup, but also work out what sites they may frequent (in your particular area of the world), a marketing-strategy of how to increase exposure, and of course since your company are developing webpages, he should also be an expert on the web. This data is then compiled and analyzed by you, who of course also need to be trained in the part of marketing relating to your design that is usually taught in graphic design courses.

You say you are 17 and have been designing sites since 95. That would make you 11 years old when you started out ...!!!

What exactly do an 11 year old know about anything ??? Or a 16 year old for that matter ???

I also wonder about why you are "in need of some community service hours" ... what is that all about ... ?

Although the result would probably be a lot more spectacular, I think that putting a cashier at McDonalds to work at launch control at NASA ... just to see what he could do ... is just as ridiculous as the plumber being hired for a carpentry job

There is a reason people train to do certain jobs, and although webdesign is not exactly nuclear physics, contrary to popular belief, it does involve first 2-3 years of (formal) training as a graphic designer, and then a year or so of training and experience as a web developer ...

Anyways ... ranting aside, it probably has no purpose anyway, why don't you try to ask this queston at the boards at A List Apart.com they will hook you up with someone in Michigan who can do your job properly. Webdevelopers regularly do charitable stuff like this for free ...

If you're left to do it anyway, all I can tell you is to make it neutral, like the colours of the board here at Sijun, not glaring, not pink. The important part, is of course the content, and where you post your links, who your client would like to "hook up with", for example sites like women.com, gurl.com and a zillion other sites like that ... if the content is good, there is no reason why they wouldn't give a charitable cause a free link and/or exposure ...

* ... wanders off into the distance, cursing the general publics misunderstanding about photographers, illustrators, designers, web developers, marketing specialists and their role as professionals ... *

[Ian Jones]

HawkOne is right...

"a little girl in a meadow" That's biased already... its promoting the pro life cause, as comparable to the baby photo example.

Neutral colours are a good idea. So like these boards have green and bluey bits, they are pretty generic colours, that dont suggest to much. They are not too saturated either, to be gawdy, and or influential and they are not too desaturated to be grey depressing.

You want to be careful not to make the site too flashy, or exciting, because abortion is a pretty serious issue and one that should not be treated as flashy or exciting. That should be pretty obvious anyway.

IT just means that you don;t need to make a really slick looking techy interface, because apart from the fact that techy isn't a generic look, it would just be too much. The site is about the information not the design. So something clean and simple should be enough.

[Zee_Man]

first off, i admit i havent read the whole thread, but as i was reading hawkones post i felt compelled to reply.

Though i too question the legitimacy of this ad agency and a few other things that HawkOne said, i must disagree with how he (im guessing) states that paqmann should be trained in graphic design and says that he cannot design good sites at 17.

i admit bias cos i too am 17 and in a few years i may look back at this post and laugh at my naivety but here goes

*takes deep breath*

1st off, and right into it, I belive that i can design better sites with better graphics and better accessibilty than many "trained professionals." i am totally self taught and have a strong grasp of html and programs for web design, photoshop, 3DSMAX, Flash etc.

kids and teenagers learn much faster and are generally much more computer litterate than adults.

as a sidenote: Most sites on the net are made by people orientated around computers and therefore have poor interfaces, gfx and such. thats why they are so poor :/ its rare that somebody is interested in both art and computers, and is good enough at both to design good CG things.

as for learning web design at 11, i have no questions about this, it would be easy for him to teach himself HTML, and at a much faster rate than an adult, through tutorials or books. as you see on the news kids as young as 11 can hack sites, so why not learn html, a much easier coding language than C++ or whatever they used to script.

I dont have the experience that someone older would possibly have, but i do have the ability.

[Zee_Man]

eheh just read paqmann second reply, wrong way to do it i guess, but i agree with everything he said, though would rate his web design skills higher than he does

nice work paqmann

[Paqmann]

Eh. Honest feedback good.

I'd like to hear a definition of "untrained designers/webdesigners in general." If this constitutes a person who has not attended some sort of art school in general, than I apologize for having more interests than merely design, and for not being at the socially acceptable age to have become a "true webdesigner" (by attending art school).

I mentioned nothing regarding whether or not understand market research, advertising, age groups, etc. etc... I merely asked for suggestions. Becoming trained as a "webdesigner" or marketing professional or whatever it is that you would have all of us "amateur" webdesigners aspire to be involves learning from others.. Not just by looking at their site and copying (or researching) their methods of reaching that particular audience.. I also wanted to talk to designers who have experience in this area and might be willing, not only to show me what works, but possibly tell why these particular choices are made in color, etc...

If I just go to a teen web site and say, whoa, they used this color scheme, I guess I will, I don't find I'm learning anything.. And I'm completely capable of doing research about this matter and looking around at other sites that the target market frequent, developing a marketing strategy.. BUT the other more experienced designers might have more insight than I.

I do work at an ad agency.. However, I did not say that this job was THROUGH the ad agency. I'm doing this on my own time, with my own money, resources, and intitiative.

Again, you mention how I should have been taught these things in the design classes that I should have taken. Well, to tell you the truth, I haven't taken any. I'm self taught in HTML, Flash, Photoshop, and javascript, and I believe that I'm capable of learning everything that's necessary to develop web sites, on my own, possibly with the assistance of more experienced developers (i.e. those on Sijun...) without spending the money (that I don't have) on art classes.

I am 17, and I have been designing sites since 95. And yes, that would make me 11 years old when I started. I have to say I'm not aware of your age or experience with art (though by the comments you probably have at least attended art school and been designing for a few years, not entirely sure), but most artists I know started doodling on paper when they were 6, 7, 8... Well, I learned to type and maneuver in DOS sometime soon after I learned to write. I've been playing around in ASCII art programs since I found free ones to download... Programming in QBASIC, working on my own personal little BBS, designing web sites in the free web site designer that my dad brought home to us way back in the day.

I'm kinda surprised that you find it at all hard to believe that an 11 year old can show an interest in web design.

And if you're going to ask what an 11 year old, or a 16 year old, or even a 17 year old knows about "anything".. I'm assuming that you're referring to web design when you make this broad reference. Well, I know what I've taught myself. I know what I've learned from playing around in Paint, then Photoshop.. and in various WYSIWYG editors, then eventually to Notepad... I find it hard to believe that you are as backwards thinking as to believe that age is any indicator of how capable one might be at art. It's possible classes and experience might HELP someone in these areas, but that does not limit capable designers to those that have attended some form of art school.

And maybe I don't know as much as you do, maybe you're a better artist, just because you're older.

So what.. should i just give up?

Should I say, oh they're better than me, I can never be that good? It's called TRYING, and there's no way I'll ever learn without doing it.

Community service hours - well I could just tell you that I'm a juvenile delinquent who got kicked out of school for being too stupid, and it'd fit the description you've basically given of anyone that has yet to attend art school or reach the age of 21... But actually, I'm a Venture crew member.. We do things called Eagle Projects, its the same as the Eagle projects that boy scouts do. Good enough?

I'm glad you think that webdesign requires the amount of knowledge that working launch control at NASA does - I'd like to see you tell that to a rocket scientist or other NASA employee and watch them laugh in your face.

I won't brag because I'm not very confident of my design skills.. But i will have you know that I have designed web sites in the past that have actually gotten decent reviews from its visitors. Now I'm sure if an OLDER person had done it, it would've been a much better web site.. but check out a web site I made last year.
http://www.crumplerusa.com/

Not exactly a top specimen of web site design, I'll say that right now - I've made better, and seen FAR better. But that doesn't take away the fact that it's better than the designs of many adults that i know that attended art school for many years.

Thank you for your reference to A List Apart, but I think I'm going to try for this project for myself (community service doesnt exactly count if someone else does it.)

Thank you for your color recommendations - I should have stated what I've already realized about the design, becuase it's exactly what you (HawkOne) and Ian Jones stated.

Neutral, non-pro-life (sorry I wasn't aware happy people was pro-life... so should it be dead people? Really I'm searching here..) Not flashy very minimalistic in graphics in design.. Don't make a joke, don't be splashy... Thats what I've been thinking, but I'm just out of ideas for a basic concept/layout for the site. I apologize for having wasted your time, and I'll just keep on trying.

lalPOOO - if you or anyone else find a nonbiased web site for abortion, please tell me. I recently wrote an essay on abortion, and I was unable to find a completely unbiased site - prolifer sites shouted "save the babies, hate the babykillers" and prochoice sites shouted "prolifers are idiots, its a woman's choice".. each using many design elements to promote their cause (if possible). I wouldn't really want to borrow from either side.

But thanks again for all the suggestions and the time you took to write your messages, even if they were outright proclamations of my utter stupidity for even having considered such a venture.

-matt

[edit]
P.S. Just noticed the "victimized" disclaimer.. thank you for your frank comments, they're appreciated even if I don't agree with them 100%. Grammer also edited. [/edit]

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Paqmann ]

[bigfoot]

Hi Pagmann, (Matt)
The first reaction i had to your "post" was anger. I hated that a man was asked to design a web site for women. The second thing I hated was your idea about a girl
in a meadow. And the third thing i hated , was your suggestion of Pink color.
Your a 17 year old guy! You have no idea what women experience (-17 to 30+) think about abortion. Because "EVERY" womans reason for seeking an abortion is
different !!! But, I must admit, you impressed me that you are at least open minded to suggestions. As long as you keep an open mind, ( being a male), shouldn't prevent
you from doing a good job. As I said, every woman has a different reason for seeking
an abortion. They range from 9 year old incest victims, to rape victims, to drug
addicts, to the "condom" broke and I'mgoing to college, to a woman with several
kids to feed and doesn't have a dime to support another mouth. Etc...Etc.
I believe a neutral color and the text should be direct and simple. Seldom, is any woman talked into having an abortion. Many women are intimidated into keeping the pregnancy..... Which usually ends up in depression..... because they had to give away their child ! Or , the mother or child is abused, or both...... Or, there is only extreme poverty and sadness, for the naive, who think they can raise a child with no spouse or a decent paying job.
As you can see, this is not a place for a woman walking in a meadow with "pink" boarders or pink anything. It is a sad serious problem. And even the young incest victims, give the subject (of having an abortion) a great deal of thought. Any one who thinks a woman gets an abortion for a simple reason, is ignorant! Keep all of this in mind when designing your web site. Keep this in mind for you design..condoms are
always to be used! Tell if your being sexually abused! Raising a child alone is a lonely
difficult job! Show soft neutral colors...perhaps a very soft outline of a woman
sitting alone . The type should be reflective of the subject matter...... It should
be "shockingly simple" and to the point.
And as far as "girly" urls.....You'd be better off thinking.....School urls, college urls,
Music urls, Dating urls, medical urls, skin care urls, clothing urls, etc. etc.
I wish you the best with this difficult and very important job!

[HawkOne]

Hi, again ...
I just had to make another massive waste of time post, since your previous reply had such an enormously twisted perception of what I actually wrote and meant, you are quoting things you read (wrongly) between the lines, and also the regular misquotes of what you mistakenly feel my opinion of you and your efforts might be. I will try and point to the places I feel you unjustly distorted my words, since your last post was not presented in any particular order, neither will mine be, hopefully it will be understandable anyway, if it is at all possible to read through it without dying of old age. Be warned, again, that some of my comments may again seem harsh, if you still think that I have some reason to, as you so elegantly put it:” But thanks again for all the suggestions and the time you took to write your messages, even if they were outright proclamations of my utter stupidity for even having considered such a venture.” A statement that of course I hope you will allow me to prove is not at all true, even though you wrote in the P.S. that you noticed the “disclaimer” AFTER writing the post.

I am glad you took my post as a man (although you are only 17) I have seen many people here buckle under less intensive “fire”, replying furiously with incoherent, adolescent and immature responses ... and I am also glad you understand that I am not making any accusations toward you as a person, since, obviously I cannot criticize your particular position without knowing more about you. (Although I now know a lot more than after your first post) Even if I did know more about you, I would not get any pleasure out of mocking you as a somehow lesser individual. That is why I lashed out more against the general idea of unqualified people doing work for next to nothing, not being able to do it to a proper standard, and thereby tainting the “image” or perception if you will of people who have made, and continue to try to make web design a respectable occupation. The notion that any 11 year old can do good web design is I am afraid, an illusion. Sure you may be able to take a bit from here, and a bit from there, and put it together in something that appears to do what it should, an 11 year old could probably do that, and a 17 year old should be able to do a lot more, but to actually create tailor-made interfaces and back ends, is about more than just borrowing from other designs There is a huge difference in general knowledge, problem solving skills and acquired knowledge of an adult as opposed to a teenager. I am NOT saying that something magical happens on the night you become 20, I’m merely saying that skills are usually connected with knowledge acquired as you age. Of course any self-respecting teenager would vehemently object the statement that “Your brain is just not totally developed yet.” but it is, I’m afraid, a fact. It is of course the reason why people are not interested in your political votes until you are a certain age, why your guardians are the only ones who can make certain decisions for you until you reach 21. This age was not set by accident.

I think that the Internet is still a bit too young for the general public (read: clients and users) to understand that it there, as everywhere else, takes a specialist to do a good job with confidence, while being certain that the job is done professionally. Please bear with me as I make some analogies. I have been urging to tell someone about this for years ...

Most people (who are not into DIY) would call the cable guy if CNN dropped out, or call the plumber when your toilet is spitting turds back at you when you try to flush, and so on, because people to a higher degree understand how things are put together after growing up in the developed world. Where I stay now, in Malaysia, a developing country, albeit a pretty developed one, people have less of these qualified professionals, and any guy who have a hacksaw and a pipe wrench, is suddenly “qualified” as a plumber here, and is (unfortunately) able to find work because people don’t have the necessary knowledge to be able to tell if he’s doing a good job or not. Until it is too late. One day you lean on the sink in the bathroom while you are shaving, the whole thing comes loose from the wall and falls onto your feet, why ??? Because it was not mounted onto the wall properly, it was “glued” to the tiles with caulking grout !!! Another example, the toilet, lets say that some accident occurs and the bowl breaks, no problem you say ??? Well if it wasn’t for the fact that it seems to be common practice here among “plumbers” that the toilet will be “integrated” in the floor and the tiles, so it is permanently fixed to the concrete in the floor ... !!! If you want it fixed, you’d have to take up the whole floor and lay it again, and unless you do it yourself, you could probably expect that the toilet would again be permanently attached to the concrete in the floor, with the base covered by tiles. Also the components, or hardware if you will, is generally of an extremely low quality, and they will break with normal use many times a year, as it is not even possible to get hold of good parts, cheap crap is all they have, and people seems content with it, because they A: don’t have high expectations, and B: Don’t realize that by paying for repairs and replacements, they don’t understand that sometimes it pays to pay a bit more for a qualified professional using tested and approved methods and hardware. These were just some hilarious examples, from personal experience mind you; I’m not just making things up here. I have a zillion more, but I won’t bore you with more, not this time anyway ... heheheh

Hopefully you are able to understand where I am going with this.

Now as for your request for definitions of "untrained designers/web designers in general" There was this one word that I read in one of the articles below, it was really quite neat, it is called: “web stylist”

However for the full explanation, I am afraid that there is no way around reading quite a bit of the ramblings and essays of people who CAN be considered as professional web developers and/or people who have a VERY good idea of what is involved in making something as difficult to understand/make as good design in general, connect well with various web technologies. These articles are all from A List Apart, since they have quite a few gold nuggets there. There are other sites with articles discussing similar things, Dreamless for example, but these should do for now.

As for apologizing for having more interests than design, I think that is a bit silly, simply because you are saying that you have no dedication of becoming acceptably proficient in one area, which of course I’m afraid you will have to be in order to call yourself a web designer or indeed just a designer, maybe a graphics/web design aspirant is a more accurate title since you yourself said: “us "amateur" web designers aspire to be”. Or maybe a web enthusiast or something like that. As long as you make it perfectly clear to your clients that you are NOT a designer/web designer unless you have some sort of certification.
A List Apart --> Article one - The Bathing Ape Has No Clothes

A List Apart --> Article two - Cheaper over better

A List Apart --> Article three - Web Designer And Proud of It

A List Apart --> Article four - How to Be SoopaFamous

Going to art/design school has nothing to do with being socially acceptable, and all to do with acquiring skills in that particular area. Just like you would expect your doctor to know what he’s doing when he’s insisting that you take 14, 1mg Xanax in one go(not a good idea!!). The doc has also gone to school to learn what he knows, and more importantly, he/she has been “certified” by a panel of already professional doctors and professors. If you believe going to school is a pointless exercise just to become “socially acceptable” I’m afraid you have a very distorted view of the world.

“I'm a web site designer” is what you said, and contrary to what you may believe, that includes a pretty thorough knowledge of those things I mentioned and you mentioned again “market research, advertising, age groups, etc. etc...” and a whole host of other things, and that is precisely the problem I think. Those are also the things you will learn in a Graphic Design course, amongst a whole host of other things. I know this may seem like pointless bickering, but I hope that at least somebody reading this, will see what I mean. I am NOT blaming you for ANY of your misconceptions about what it is to be a professional in ANY profession. I AM rather blaming the people who would actually encourage young people like yourself by hiring unqualified workers in any technical profession, just because they are cheaper. This is destructive for those who are actually qualified and certified to take care of certain problems. Design is NOT just about esthetic appearances, and although it is not likely to kill anyone, which would probably be the case with the doctor advice above, it will very likely not give the customer a product that is as good as it could/should be. In the end, we all lose by thinking like this. You also claim that you are qualified to give statements like “But that doesn't take away the fact that (your design) it's better than the designs of many adults that i know that attended art school for many years.” Don’t you realize that until you have been certified by someone, you cannot even be taken seriously when you are making your statements, simply because you have not proven to your future peers that you know what you are talking about ??

Stupid analogy time again: How can you tell the engine designer with Mercedes, that your engine designs are better than his, unless you actually have the relevant engineer education credentials, and proof to back you up, that you know what you are talking about ... Your opinion is worthless in this particular case, because it is subjective, and because you do not have the required knowledge to justify your statement.

Now you claim that I find it hard to believe that an 11 year old can show interest in web design, you are again twisting my words. I would STRONGLY encourage any 11-17 year old to be interested in ANYTHING, that is just great. But I would strongly suggest that that 11-17 year old get real when it comes to claiming to be a professional and a viable alternative for a client when it comes to pretty much every line of work I can think of. Except maybe selling lemonade on a hot summer day. Give up, stop what you are doing, OFF COURSE NOT !! All I am saying is that you should make sure you are not thinking to highly of your own abilities as an untrained person. Although you try to appear humble and modest some of your statements makes it quite clear that my post somehow deflated your fantasy that you can kick pro-web designer a$$, and that your feelings were somehow hurt. Sometimes the truth hurts.

If you believe that you are somehow very special when it comes to the extent of your computer skills, I think I should mention that there are hoards of people who have been using computers since they became available to the public. Many of them are probably right here on this board, and that includes me. I was 10 when I got my own little computer to play with, a Sinclair ZX81, in 1981, also from my dad, when he saw that I enjoyed playing with his funky computers, Including playing Frogger on the first portable Compaq. I’m not sure why you were dabbling around with ASCII art in 1995 as I also did almost 15 years earlier, since you could have used Windows 95 to make much nicer stuff ... but the more you have your fingers in ... the merrier ... 1995 is not under any circumstances called “Way back in the day”

DOS was of course the only thing around then for PCs since windows were not yet ripped off from Xerox, and then from Apple, and needless to say, I used it pretty much since the day it was publicly available, and still use it today. I also had access to loads of other computers, ABC80 (1980) using a simple form of BASIC, Commodores and Ataris and Apricots and IBM and pretty much every version of PC or Mac ever launched until the clones arrived. (To IBMs despair) What were you up to in 1980 ?? I am sorry if I tease you a bit, but I just wanted to make a point of that 6 years exposure to computers is not enough by a long shot to call you an expert within that particular area, when you are only 11 when you start out.

Your guess about me is pretty good, but allow me to elaborate, maybe you could learn from my situation. Who knows ... In any case you might want to know who the hell am I to tell you ANYTHING ...!!! Well ... read on and you will see ...

After a reasonable finish to compulsory education (16 years old) I went skiing for a year heheh ... in a Folk High School ... a strange place. After that I was pushed into 3 years of A-Levels specializing in English, German and French, in addition to the regular (College) Advanced-Level subjects. It went well, even though I hated it, and I am very thankful that I went through with it now. I did my duty in the Navy for about a year (what a waste of time ), and was then unemployed (on welfare) for about half a year after that, with no clue what to do with my life, enjoying a regular income, with no questions asked. It was great, but also dangerous, so I went for a year of design and marketing, and from there I decided that I wanted to be an artist. Since as most artists will claim, drawing has been an essential part of my life for as long as I can remember. I had another year in a Fine Art introduction course, and I decided to leave Norway, and I went to UK for a 3 year Visual Communication course, all the way to a BA (Hons.) degree in the summer of 98. Mission accomplished ...

Without the A-Levels I would probably still be wondering what to do with my life ... It opened up a lot of doors, and although I hated it at the moment, I am now EXTREMELY grateful for what my parents pushed me through. After UK, I moved to Malaysia and I have been working here ever since in various positions. Since I was focusing on 3D and Multimedia design, I got a job right away as a Senior Animator (??!), and even though it was a bloody nightmare to suddenly be in charge of 3 other people straight out of school, it went pretty well, until the manager got in trouble with some fussy client connected to the mafia or some shit like that, and he flew the country along with 2 months of my salary After that I worked for another year as a web designer/Flash artist for a massive portal site (400-500 pages with massive daily updates), a massive job search site (about 800 pages not counting generated pages), an online museum for Chinese antiques (2-300 pages), a antique shop selling Chinese antiques (2-300 pages), and also many smaller projects of similar type as your example. The company was yet another badly managed company, and as far as I know, everything I worked day and night for exists no more. I left after my contract expired after a year, after I realized that the company was going nowhere but down the drain. I started my own company and have been calling myself Multimedia Designer ever since the summer of 2000.

I’m afraid you grossly misread my silly analogy about nuclear physics and web design, maybe you should take another look at what I actually wrote .. ? And to imply that I say that anyone who hasn’t attended Art school before they are 21 are juvenile delinquents, now that just proves my point about your age, and your inability to quote me correctly ... tsk-tsk ...

All I am saying here, is that having 6 years of dabbling does not qualify you to a title of any qualified workforce. Eagle Projects eh, sounds like good stuff. I hope you take your studies seriously, and that by having OK grades, you will be able to enroll in some sort of further studies on your way to being a certified and valuable part of the workforce. Although it is very possible to go it all alone, it is a very risky position to be in, as you will be the first to walk the plank when the shit hits the fan. If you are able to excel in whatever area, WITH the qualifications in order, there will be no stopping you if you are hard working (as you seem to be). Who knows, you could be the next Bill Gates ...

P.S.
After having a look at the coding in your sample site, I noticed that you are using FrontPage, that is NOT the choice of ANY professional web designers I know about, and I know quite a few , there are good reasons for this but you should be able to find those yourself, I recommend Dreamweaver, or off course notepad, as you said you were using.
Also You should make the first line of your homepage HTML document a DOCTYPE declaration, for example, for a typical HTML 4.01 document: This is because differnt browsers might have trouble parsing the document correctly. See example below ...


<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Title</TITLE>
</HEAD>

<BODY>
<-- ... body of document ... -->
</BODY>
</HTML>

P.P.S
I think what you mentioned about your research, where you found something like: "prolifers are idiots, its a woman's choice"... why not just use the last part of that slogan, and use that as your starting point, it sounds like a great neutral slogan, you should be able to come up with a whole host of ideas using just “It’s a Womans Choice!”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for you Zee_Man, it is definitely a very good idea to read posts before commenting on them, hopefully you have also managed to get through even this daunting post, and can hopefully now see why I beg to differ on your various statements.

As for your generalized statement about the differences in kids and adults learning methods, that is only true for certain things such as language and motor skills. Not more complex tasks, such as the periodic table, or trigonometry, deductive thinking and so on. There is probably a good reason why Einstein or T.A. Edison aren’t know to be child prodigies.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[edible snowman]

hawkone, this post is no excuse for your arrogant ramblings. you've only succeeded in being extremely condescending. and speaking of reading between the lines, i don't recall paqman claiming he was the end all and be all of web design. in fact, he came here asking for help, which shows he probably understands his limitations. i have a feeling that if he just hadn't mentioned he was 17 your post would be a lot less vehement.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: edible snowman ]

[Paqmann]

Zee_Man... thanks for your compliment, and for your post. Nice to know I'm not entirely alone.

bigfoot... while you wrote a somewhat sympathetic post, I feel somewhat compelled to clarify and point out a few things. First off - I was not exactly... "asked" to design a web site for women. So I guess the blame for this project falls entirely on me. It was suggested, and I took it up as a great opportunity. As to the mention of pink, I think you'll notice that what I wrote about the color pink was:

But I can't just make it pink or whatever the stereotypes are about girl's sites, because I'm also in need of a site that guys won't have any trouble checking out.

I agree with the statement that my maleness entitles me to a less than fair understanding of the female point of view. However, I would not go so far as to say that I "have no idea what women experience... think about abortion". Through talking to many of them about the subject, researching, and talking to people trained in marketing and such matters, I feel that I've gained a decent view of what might appeal to women. Also, I'm pretty sure that there are women that frequent Sijun, and my request for suggestions would be extended just as much, if not more, to them.

Thank you for seeing that I'm trying, though... and for your suggestions. Again.. I would be very happy if someone were to PLEASE educate me by telling me what is so Pro-Life or whatever it is that is wrong about a woman in a meadow. I accept the fact that it's not an acceptable image.. Now can we get past that fact, help me learn, and possibly tell me why? Again.. see previous quote about the color of pink. As to the condoms, etc... This is not a site teaching, or advocating, any form of sexual conduct WHATSOEVER. I wish it only to address those who wish to learn more about abortion. It will not promote sex before marriage, and it will not promote abstinence. The site will be about abortion and nothing else.

I thank you very much for the suggestion of an outline of a picture. That eliminates facial expressions, which were causing me a lot of trouble (no matter what expression the woman had, someone found some hidden message in her face.

Thanks for the help, comments, links, ideas, and support.

Now, to HawkOne. Before I write anything, I would like to also thank you for your suggestions, ideas, and critiques - anything that makes me a better designer. And I apologize for having twisted any words or gotten angry in my posts... I've been dealing with adults who disrespect those younger than them (colleagues, clients, teachers, family friends, etc.) for a very long time and it is my biggest pet peeve.. (not accusing you of disrespect, but I still get angry sometimes.)

Again I'm going to go line by line from your message.

Again I apologize for having misinterpreted your original post, in the second post you seemed to have a better understanding of the matter and less of the ... biased "adult" view that angers me so much.

Thanks for the compliment about taking your post "as a man." 8) I also respect your calm-headed posts, while I may have given the impression of misunderstanding some of your words.

I'm afraid there was a misunderstanding about the 11 year old issue. By "designing web sites", I did not mean to say "making good web sites". I meant to say simply, "designing web sites". They sucked. The first web site I made was a picture of a cloud that I got off a free clipart gallery... with a bunch of text and links, hosted on Angelfire when they only allowed 35KB per web site.

"tailor made interfaces and back ends" are not exactly the required components for a web site, also.. It basically comes down to the distinction between web sites, and good web sites. I'm in no way claiming that I was, or even am now, capable of making web sites that are up to the standard of anything you might make.. But I also don't attribute back ends and any other sort of coding or .. anything else that ADDS functionality to a site, as necessary elements of a web site. While they may be necessary for a high quality corporate web site, I see no distinction in the terb "web design" between Microsoft's web site and Billy's Pokemon web site ( a little exaggerated but I think you understand the picture. )

About your argument about the brain development and mental capacities of a teenager � I guess I can�t argue with you on that one, because I don�t know enough about the issue. I just will say that the functions that one is capable to perform as an adult that they cannot as a teenager, or knowledge that one acquires as one ages, are not necessarily required for web design. That would be a matter that I don�t believe either of us are qualified to accurately decide on, and will probably continue to be a point of contention until there is a scientific study conducted on the subject. 8)

Your analogies and that section of the message again are based on the assumption that web design is a field that requires specialization, training, and �tested and approved methods and hardware.� Again I believe that web design is an area related to both art and computers� Both of which are easier to learn at a younger age (as is anything within the young person�s comprehension � as Zee_Man pointed out, the younger generations have grown up with computers, and are usually very comfortable with them. I make no move to exclude you from this generation � you state that you�ve been using computers for a long time, and I have no reason not to believe you.) It is true that as one learns MORE about art, computers, and other such subjects (which can only happen as you grow older and gain more experience), one becomes much more proficient at that particular subject� Unfortunately, the point of contention is, how much of that proficiency that is gained through experience is actually necessary to create �good� web sites.

Again I notice that this may seem to be taking on an offensive tone � I see your points and agree with many of them.. I�m just trying to point out where we disagree. 8)

I have to say I haven�t taken the time to read the A List Apart articles, though I�ll make sure to do so soon. So any points that you make about those subjects, I will leave open to debate. 8)

The statement about having more interests than design was a little of two things. First, at my age, I don�t exactly have the capability of going to art school full time � High school, my job, and all that wonderful stuff. I never stated that I had no dedication to becoming acceptably proficient in one area � I merely meant to say that that does not occupy all of my time, as it may of someone who doesn�t need a job to support themselves and is not required to attend high school. In my statement about aspiring and amateurs.. That was made as a somewhat sarcastic reference to the belief that it seemed that you held, that anyone of my amount of learning and talent was not fit to be called a professional developers.. so in a statement heavily loaded with sarcasm, I referred to myself as an �amateur� that �aspires� to be a professional. Hopefully that helped a bit..

I was not aware that there was a required certification to put oneself forward as a web designer� It seems to me to be a title along the lines of �artist�, which certainly requires no certification to declare oneself as. Maybe I�m deluding myself here� ?

About doctors� Again, it�s completely true that I�d expect a doctor to have been trained in his/her skill areas� But in my view, a doctor cannot adequately perform his job with training, and a web designer can. Again, a matter of opinion.

I did not mean at all to say that going to school is a pointless exercise just to become socially acceptable. I merely disagreed with the idea that to be socially accepted as a designer, one has to have already completed art school.

In the next section you talk about my misconceptions of being a professional in a field, so obviously we have very different views about what being a web site designer is. My interpretation of that particular title is, one who creates web sites. That�s all. I don�t see a need for qualification, training, or any of the other things you may attribute to a professional developer (which, also, I see as a somewhat difference title than web designer � professional usually denotes a person who is a web designer by profession, rather than by any of the other possible applications for web design, such as personal use, hobby, or other such use.)

You�re using some circular logic here.

I say that it is not necessary to be trained at art schools, because I can design better than some people who�ve graduated art school.

You say, that I�m not capable of judging that matter until I have attended art school!! 8) no way to get around that one, it�s a matter of opinion as to the general usefulness of an art school education.

As to this analogy:

How can you tell the engine designer with Mercedes, that your engine designs are better than his, unless you actually have the relevant engineer education credentials, and proof to back you up, that you know what you are talking about ... Your opinion is worthless in this particular case, because it is subjective, and because you do not have the required knowledge to justify your statement.

Here�s how I would plan to prove that my engine designs are better than his � see whose engine works better. 8)

Sorry bout the twisting of your words about 11 year olds interested in web design.. I made no statement that at age 11, I called my self a professional, or a viable alternative to a client. At that point, I would have not even mentioned my web designing to anyone besides friends. I�m not exactly aware, however, how any of the words of your post �deflated (my) fantasy that (I) can kick pro-web design a$$�� I still am of the same opinion as I was in the original posts, that I am better than some designers, and worse than some. Simple fact. No feelings hurt.

As to extent of computer skills � nope, I know of many people with far more knowledge than I. It was simply pointing out the fact that it is not in the least bit unrealistic that an 11 year old could have the computer know-how to begin web design as at least a hobby.

And as to your reference about ASCII art in 95.. I made no reference to the date of ASCII art. I believe the exact statement was,

I've been playing around in ASCII art programs since I found free ones to download...

doubtful that I would have been using ascii art on web sites .. though that is in interesting idea. I have no wish to get into a �who was more computer literate than who� fight.. I will admit already that you win that particular argument, only with the reason that I don�t really care to argue about that point. And for someone who has only been alive since 1984, 1995 actually is �way back in the day�. Consider the source before you attempt to discredit the statement. 8)

As to DOS, windows, Basic, ataris, apricots, IBMs.. again, you win. I understand that it�s teasing, and I�ll take it in sort� at 1980, I think I was a .. ahh, yep, I was maybe a little thought in the back of my parents heads. I also made no statement that the beginning of my computer experience was at age 11, unless that is when the average child learns to write. ( Well, I learned to type and maneuver in DOS sometime soon after I learned to write.)

I�m impressed with the steps you�ve taken to reach the point that you�re at right now, and I thank you for that because it helps me see what I might need to do if I ever actually were to pursue a career in design along with an art school training.

As a reasonable person, I�ll assume that your comments about juvenile delinquency and �now that proves my point about your age, and your inability to quote me correctly� were a joke.. Sorry, just an exaggeration. I�ll keep the ineffective analogy rebuttals to a minimal.

Well about studies.. I�ve got my grades up decent enough to basically guarantee acceptance to the school that I�m planning on attending, the University of Michigan.. where I plan to educate myself as much as possible in as many areas as possible while stile maintaining enough specialization to perform adequately in at least a few positions. (Ideas � designer, marketing .. uhh.. marketing guys, the word escapes me at the moment, engineer, businessperson, and all of the many related jobs that fall under those categories)

Thanks for your endorsement, when I am the next Bill Gates and I need a web site for my business (but don�t have time) I�ll make sure to look you up.

(ATTENTION TO ANYONE WITHOUT A SENSE OF HUMOR � IGNORE THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE)


And now, regarding the P.S.

Frontpage had several things going for it... The primary of which being that the client required that I use FrontPage if at all possible (they owned many licenses for that program and had employees proficient in it, while had no access or knowledge regarding DreamWeaver and other such programs). I personally hate the program. I�m a big Notepad fan all the way, although most of the web sites I�ve created recently have been in FrontPage for the primary reason of a lack of time to code a lot of pages in NotePad and a lack of money for any other program.

About the DOCTYPE � thanks for the reference, I�ll be sure to include that coding when writing in NotePad, but again, this web site was made in FrontPage, and I was content to keep the pages the way they were. If you know of a way to have FrontPage automatically insert that line of code in any page, then please by all means inform me.

And to your P.P.S. � Well, I know that you�re not from America, so I�ll allow that to explain your lack of knowledge about liberalist propaganda here. 8) The cry of the anti-abortion (called �Pro-Choice�) activists is, �It�s a Woman�s Choice!� So while the meaning of the words conveys a statement about choice and fairness, it is ingrained into the American subconscious as the calling card of the Pro-Choicers. Even if it�s a great neutral statement, people would automatically associate it with the Pro-Choice movement, which is something I don�t want to happen on this site.

HMM and the PPPS.. eh, I won�t even try to debate about the learning styles of children.

Thanks for the comments everyone.. and please don�t feel daunted by this conversation, I�m still looking for any ideas anyone can give me.

(While we�re at it.. anyone know of any free stock photo galleries? I have one or two that I know of but I�ve basically exhausted their resources. Thanks.)

-matt

[smalbrain]

fwoar. Hey I read everything! man I feel like I just ran a marathon Im exhausted and my brain is wobbling and booiping!

Yeh - I know what the old man is saying about unqualified people - I agree - when people cant tell the difference - It does make qualified people like old man look like dog poo eh? yeeeeeh... I dont blame ya if you are a little defensive and depressed old man.

Young grasshopper - often times with visuals dilemnas that which is not said or what is denied is often more powerful then what you represent. BLACK is easier to change to WHITE then to DARK GREY (or light white) grasshopper... here as an outrageous example to cover the this spectrum - Make it pink. PINK!! Make it so obviously pink that it will make them laugh push them over the edge - make them face their other side - their white their black. But grasshopper - do it with with kindness - compassion - safety. intelligence. it is complex - no one set of buttocks can sit on the sun to block out its light grasshoper. or can you? - truth. find it and make them smile!

I hope this helps - if it doesnt - at least I helped you realise what NOT to do haha!

[HawkOne]

Paqmann,

Again you take my words as a man , and obviously have taken the time to actually read what I was talking about, unlike everyone else in this thread. Since my second post was a lot clearer on what I meant, I feel that you understand what I mean, by your reply. Although we may disagree. I have not used FrontPage in eons, but if I come across it, I will try to find a possible solution for you. Oh and don't worry about my sense of humor, as far as I'm concerned, there is NOTHING to serious to joke about. Teasing, NOT sarcasm was ALL I intended; I have no hidden agenda against you.

As for edible snowmans response about being condescending, this is what I consider condescending, allow me quote bigfoot here with spelling mistakes and all: "Again , I challange anyone who has posted here to go "head to head" with me in a contest. And when we submit the work to a guild or illustration society, I know i will win."

Now THAT is what I call condescending, because she(?) claims to be on better than anybody, regardless of age and experience, and I don't. I DO claim to be more proficient in what I do than someone 13 years my junior, and rightfully so too as far as I'm concerned. I don't think there is anything wrong with a senior telling the junior how things work. If we hear advice and opinions from people who have:" Been there done that." I feel that is the best way of learning, rather than trial and error, which is sure to waste precious time. I myself, as many others with me, have had to get used to the fact that until we have had the same training, we are not all equal in our abilities.

Bigfoot, I am not surprised that you have no idea, what I'm talking about. As far as the posts I have read by you are concerned, I think I can safely say that you have a fantastic ability to not understand, to misquote and put words into peoples mouths, which they never said. I am not sure it will be very fruitful to try to make you understand this, as I am afraid it will be a futile mission. I'd say that I prefer to leave you to your own devices, and you probably will end up shooting yourself in your "bigfoot", since you seem to be heading in that direction anyway.

smalbrain: hahahah ... "old man look like dog poo eh? yeeeeeh... I dont blame ya if you are a little defensive and depressed old man. sounds like dialogue from a kung-fu movie ... a really bad one ..
30 is old ?? heheh ... I am depressed ?? ... OK ... if you say so ..
My problem is not just with webdesign, as it is not really something I feel very strongly about. Qualified labour however IS, from ANY walk of life. I feel that guilds, unions and pride in your work, is what has made the western world excel to the level it has.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[smalbrain]

yes - pride in ones self is amiable. and HEY lets not confuse that with being arrogant, conservative or a bit wanky! cause thats a bit stone mason stanic cult extreme, doncha think!! - HA NO! its sooo wrong! you arnt that! NO!! YOU ARNT!!! its only a view people out side of a group have.

sadly... the reality is that only you - you only - old man (and maybe those close to you) will realise what a... special... very special... person you truly are...

[bigfoot]

snowman, i agree with you . I have no idea what he is "talking about".

[HawkOne]

People like you smalbrain, make this board into such a great place. Your witty and well founded and well researched and mature replies, will enlighten even the brightest among us. Please bow down, and accept this ring as a token of your acceptance of membership into our special cult where grand intellectuals like yourself are sorely needed.

Please raise your right hand in a nazi-like fashion and repeat after me :
"I, smalbrain, am an imbecile and an asshole, I swear to make irrelevance and selfcontradiction the order of the day wherever I may glance. I swear to uphold the great standard we swear by in the imaginary elitist cult of Sijun."

Please kiss my ass ... you may rise and take you first step into a new and better world.


[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[Ian Jones]

OK THATS ENOUGH.

I haven't read all of this post, but I would say its time to stop being nasty to each other.

Please avoid silly flame wars. Need I remind you of the problems it caused last time...

[Mr. T]

some huge posts here

[Mr. T]

probably one of the biggest posts i've ever seen

[Ben Barker]

For real man. I skimmed most of it looking for the juicy flames. I guess I should get back to something more on my level:

[Paqmann]

god, I love Sijun.

[strata]

I just have one little thing to say, and I don't mean to bring up another flame war or whatever, but this thing has been bothering me for quite some time...

this is directed to hawkone and those who share his opinions (which is quite a lot of people): Saying that you can not be a good designer without an education is wrong. You may not understand why everything works in a marketing and psychological sort of way, but that does not mean that you can not design as good as somebody else.
For instance, take a look at Hillman Curtis... he is one of the most looked up to, well respected and well known designers in the business today... he's done sites for Adobe, razorfish, rollingstone etc... numerous high profile sites... and his designs are amazing... they communicate in such a powerful way that it just grabs you... something quite rare with webpages...
Mr Curtis was a rock singer for most of his life, has no education in the arts whatsoever, and merely caught a lucky break when he got a job for Macromedia. Yet he's a better designer then most.
The same thing goes for the people over at 2advanced, Razorfish, Kioken, Three Men and numerous others.

These people are amazing designers, because they have an eye for it. They know what looks good instinctively and they go for it. They may not know why certain trends in art history started, or who some of the most famous painters in the world was. They may not have marketing skills, they may not know first thing about visual psychology. But they know what looks good. They feel what fits the topic.

In a way, I'd say this is a more liberal way of approaching the design. When you don't know the rules, you can't be constrained by them. On the other hand, when you don't know the benefits of the rules, you can't gain from them. But just because you don't know the rules, does not mean that you can't be a great designer.

And to say that these people can NOT call themselves designers because they lack the education is absurd.

And that's where the issue of certification comes in. You seem to be pro-certification, but since you haven't said so in plain writing, I can not know this for sure. But let's assume you are

Now certification in itself is a completely different issue, and quite a big one at that. But the notion of having to certify yourself as a designer to be allowed to work is in my view rediculous. Especially as (from what I've read) you need some form of education to be able to get certified.

So what this basically means, is that Hillman Curtis or Eric Jordan are not allowed to call themselves designers? Are not allowed to work as designers, or take government funded design projects? It sounds quite silly, as Eric Jordans 2advanced site won site of the year 2001. -And he's not allowed to be a designer?

I understand why people in your position, who've worked hard to get where they are, who've studied for years to learn valuable knowledge in marketing psychology and visual arts, get upset when they see people who went straight into the market are now being treated as equals. I'd be upset too.

I'm quite annoyed that nephews and whatnots are designing entire sites for companies for $10 an hour... that bothers me quite a bit... but not enough to want certification... I mean if you're confident enough in your own skills, you would know that your designs are worth the money you charge, and you shouldn't worry about the little nephews because you KNOW that you can do better. Thus you shouldn't be worried about them moving in on your business. This is merely good marketing skills... something the nephews lack... the thing that gets them 10 bucks an hour instead of 80.

So don't worry about it... if you have the marketing skills you claim to have, and you have the designs in your portfolio to back up your words, you shouldn't be affected. If you're a high quality designer, you will get high-end payment.

So I would agree with you in this way: If you're trying to work freelance with your designing, then I agree, an education would be valuable because you would need many hats to put on your head.

If you're working for a company as a web designer, it shouldn't be your task to bring in new clients, or to market your company. That's what the marketing department is supposed to do. Well run design companies have very specialized people in it. That's why the big organized firms stay big, and the small upstarts die.

So yah, an education is grand, but it's not the be all and end all. =)

[smalbrain]

ok cool - hey hawkeye - please feel free to accept my apologies - I didnt mean to hurt your feelings - Its all in good humour . I gotta admit your last post though made me fall off my chair laughing ;P. good one . cheers - no hard feelings? alright.

[Zee_Man]

lol i cbf reading all that, but just out of curiosity i would like to see some of these sites that hawkone has designed. urls pls?

[HawkOne]

Strata,

Some posters in this topic seems to hastily believe that my main motivation for airing my admittedly slightly fascist views on the value of education and assurance, insisting that people know their line of work, whatever line of work it might be, is that I am losing business as a result of “the nephews”.

So, just to clear up a little detail, I do not consider web design to be my "field", so I am not at all concerned with losing clients personally. Believing that my views are “biased because I am losing business personally” is simply not the case. I am however worried about a huge surge of graduates in the graphic arts area in general, it will make life hard for fresh graduates living in areas currently enjoying relatively good wages, and enough work. (but that is a different story)

However, I don’t blame anyone from not reading every word in this topic, since it has grown somewhat out of proportion. About 1 1/2 years ago I worked at a large company here in Malaysia, yet another overly optimistic internet venture company. What I saw there in most areas, excluding some of the programmers, was that many were clueless as to how to do their job. People came and went faster than I could learn names, either because they revealed that they didn’t know how to do their job, or because they did, had no faith in the company and found it best to leave the sinking ship. If I could, I would have left too, but due to immigration laws(I am not a Malaysian) in this country, and my contract, I had to stay for the full duration of the contract and promptly left after that.

Who cares you might think ... Well; I think it matters because it shows that if people had actually been qualified, the company might actually have been a good one. Unfortunately, when you hire people without the correct papers and/or credentials, you never know what you get, and usually what you get is not great. My opinion does not only concern art, as you can see from too many dodgy analogies in my overly excessive posts above, it is for ANY occupation that needs extensive training and practice, and cannot be learnt instantly (flipping burgers and sweeping streets come to mind).

As far as I am concerned, any society will benefit from having made sure that any profession have reached as high a level as possible, and that those who are working in that particular field, have some form of evidence they can show for it. Certificates issued from an approved institution, Union memberships, guilds, but also a reference from someone already somehow part of those groups, and I am sure there are other ways too. Showing evidence of your work should be good too; if you can prove that it is really yours. I have interviewed people applying for multimedia designer, animator and 3D designer who had the nerve to show work that weren’t theirs, some used designs I had seen before, online, and were thus exposed as imposters, others showed it in their work later, not at all being anywhere near performing the same level of work as they had showed in the interview. How could that be avoided ?? Any ideas ??

Obviously from your writing you seem to know what you're talking about, and you seem to agree with me in general terms, and disagree when it comes to using my "point of view" as a strictly enforced rule. I completely respect your views, and some of the points you make I completely agree with.

When I read some of your claims regarding Hillman Curtis, I must say that I had no idea about his educational background, and to tell you the truth, I had big problems believing it, after seeing his work here and there, and not really give much more thought to it than that it was nice stuff.

You (strata) said(Hillman Curtis)“has no education in the arts whatsoever”

So, I went looking for Hillman Curtis, and see what info I could dig up, that could explain why he is considered a prodigy in the flash/graphic design area.

Again a long post from me (what else is new?) but allow me to quote some of my findings here below from various sources along with links to the respective interviews.

-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x- begin quotes x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-


The first quotes are from cmykmag.com

CMYKMAG.COM

Curtis grew up in the Bay Area, where his mother worked as a high school art teacher and a fine artist, making jewelry, oil paintings and pottery. And when he went off to college at San Francisco State University, Curtis decided to formalize his creative upbringing, studying creative writing and film.

So Curtis took his cut of the money from the "90210" song, bought an old Macintosh computer and signed up for a Photoshop class. He did some freelance work and finally got hired on a contract basis with Macromedia. He says he didn't know what he was doing much of the time. "Even working e-mail was sort of a challenge," he admits. But he worked seven days a week, all the time. And seven months later, he was an art director at Macromedia.

"His philosophy is that everybody has to first earn their stripes," says Ian Kovalik, the design director at HillmanCurtis.com. "Once they do that, everyone has a say in the overall vision of the company and the process. What you have to offer is truly respected and truly applied."

"I feel pretty good about the past because I learned a ton in the music business," he says. From his time in the band, Curtis learned about self-promotion, putting himself out there and believing in himself when others don't seem to understand. He learned about resilience. He learned about rhythm and the importance of repetition. All these experiences, he says, have made him a better designer. And this time, he has no plans to pack it up and call it quits.

These are from we’re here.com

WE'RE-HERE.COM

“I dove into the world of design 100 percent, working first as a freelancer and then as a designer for Macromedia. I eventually moved up to the Art Director position at Macromedia. It was at Macromedia that I began seriously studying the craft of graphic design…working with the staff of designers there, the creative director Katharine Green, and with Neville Brody for the re-design was a challenge, but such a huge opportunity to learn.”

“Later, when I moved to NYC, I was given a desk at Razorfish in exchange for consulting and again I took a huge step up in my designing. Being around the level of designers at Razorfish made me push even harder. Now as principal of my own company, hillmancurtis.com, I have the opportunity to direct (and sometimes be directed by) the great designers who work with me.”
-----------------------------------
Jessica: In your opinion, how important is the role formal education plays in the design industry?
Hillman: I don't know…I really think it helps, but having come from a non-formal background all I can say is that I have learned a lot from designers who have come from formal backgrounds…graphic design and communication through graphic design is definitely a deep craft and some of the "rules" are essential…
Jessica: Do you consider yourself an artist? If so, what styles of art do you most identify with?
Hillman: I'm good at what I do…there's elements of art in it…I'm a graphic designer…a commercial artist, so maybe by the classic description no, but I work with passion so in someways yes.
-----------------------------------------------------

This is from Flashkit.com
FLASHKIT.COM
As a designer, should you attempt to learn everything (ASP, PHP, XML, etc), or do you believe in the "Jack of all trades, master of one" approach?

You have to take a shot at it everything, find out what you are best at...happiest doing, and do it, but it's so valuable to at least take a class in an area or technology that confounds you, or pound your way through it in a project, just so you can start to understand possibilities.

-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x- end of quotes x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

Now, about the art/design part, you can successfully argue that he has no formal education, but I believe you could concede that having a mother as an art teacher and professional artist, has very likely exposed him to one or two things that most “nephews” don’t automatically get. This may have been art/design sense that an artist needs to learn somehow, that includes technical skill and very likely design/art theory too (this artist is nice, and this one is not so nice). According to the info in these interviews above, he did indeed reach a level of skill as a painter, which allowed him to make money from it. Now, that suggests a grasp of art from before he started his studies. I am also pretty sure that if making money and fame with his bands success hadn’t been pulling him away from his studies, he would probably had been a different type of artist.

A course in Photoshop, doesn’t necessarily mean so much, but obviously, since he cared to mention it in interviews, chances are that it helped him achieve his goal. I am also pretty sure that working shoulder to shoulder with Neville Brody don’t exactly hurt either, and as far as I am concerned, a reference from Mr.Brody is a better credential than most certifications I can think of. Curtis also stated somewhere that his work is influenced by Josef Muller-Brockmann: Pioneer of Swiss Graphic Design, that also shows that he has actively picked up design history, and not just done whatever came along like many designers do. Curtis gives a lot of credit for his success to the artists and designer he has had the pleasure of working with, in Macromedia, Razorfish, and finally in his own company now. The brainstorming methods he is describing are not new methods he invented himself, someone has “showed him the path” or he has bothered to do the research himself.

He also mentions that 10 (?) years in the music business, has taught him about, self-promotion, resilience. He learned about the marketing, clients and all that stuff from the music business.

For those who don’t know (shame on you ) Neville Brody is perhaps the best-known graphic designer of his generation. He studied Graphic Design at the London College of Printing before immersing himself in the independent music scene of the early 1980s.

The claim “So what this basically means, is that Hillman Curtis or Eric Jordan are not allowed to call themselves designers?” is stretching my words more than a little bit. I think there is a BIG difference between Joe Schmoe who, using his game-machine with a pirated version of Photoshop that he came across when he was grabbing MP3s from WinMX, calls himself a designer. And the “apprentice” of some already educated individual, who is kind enough to teach the tricks and methods of a particular trade.

The amount of people in any occupation showing the dedication and hard work to achieve what Mr. Curtis has, are few and far between. And very possibly luck, and being at the right time has something to do with this too. If Hillman Curtis were born in Poland, he would probably not have the opportunity to get where he is today.

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[HawkOne]

smalbrain,
no hard feelings ... I have no personal complains about ANYONE here, whatever they may say, bitching and whining is all just part of the fun here I think ...

Zee_Man,
I'm guessing that cbf=cannot be fucked
I think it would be good for you if you read it ... lots of interesting things up there, then you would see that this is not really a "my schlong is bigger than yours" discussion. But rather is education neccesary or not ..

You might also notice the fact that I mentioned (several times)I am no longer working for the accursed MyWeb Malaysia or MyWebInc.com In any case, countless designers have no doubt come and gone, transmogrifying my work into oblivion. If indeed they are still afloat. An other site was Jobpolitan.com.my Mind you, there is one big problem with working at MyWeb for a designer, an antique TV set-top box, incapable of dealing with pretty much anything other than html 3 (or was that 2?), javascript, nope, flash, nope, pictures ? sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes very distorted (stretched or squashed), 590 pixel max width. Content written (=stolen+shuffled+recycled) by the swichboard lady who was promoted to "Channel Content Specialist" when the company realised the no real writers could be bothered to work for MyWeb, those who did come, left within a day or two. Stupid clients and managers who like pink and purple in pretty much everything, ahhh those were the days.

In short, not a great place for creative people who like to play around with the latest technologies. Besides screwing trusting clients to part with their money, they left projects to their own devices. after getting the money, whoever was in charge of paying internic, couldn't be arsed to pay for the domain name. so it was snatched, one such now cost 1000$, used to be tradeboat.com, but it has seized to exist.

I do have a couple of designs that I was rather pleased with, that I saved as pictures on a CD somewhere, I don't mind digging them up and showing ...
Web page with 6-700K of smut

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[wayfinder]

2 euro-cents:

studying design, i discover *why* i've been doing things right before my education and how my "sense of design" has not been much more than an intuitive grasp of fundamental design techniques that can be learned and applied by most people. what goes beyond, "creativity", is (most of the time) overstepping these self-imposed borders, or, to avoid a clich�, "thinking outside the box". And it consists mainly of breaking rules, forgetting absolutes of education and showing some healthy naivit� in your approach.

All of us who painfully learn the workings and methods of a certain profession or field will have to accept that fact that someone with talent, i.e. the intuitive, sometimes even subconscious grasp of the principles will be able to pull off adequate or excellent stuff without going through extensive education first.

[Kaete]

Whew! I actually read the whole thing! My, but you guys are verbose.

As for my two pennies:

I love creating websites. In fact it is one of my favorite things to do besides drawing or writing. But I certainly wouldn't call myself a web designer. There's simply far too much that I don't know. I've only had internet for about five or so years now, and I've only been making websites for two. There is still and amazing and almost insurmountable amount of stuff I have to learn before I would could consider myself a professional.

Paqmann, at only 17 you still know more than me. *sigh*

Also, please don't be too hard on Frontpage, HawkOne. For most of us it is the only choice besides Netscape Composer (gag me) and notepad (reliable but sloooow.) I got my copy for only $6 at the student price. Since I don't like warez, I have to go with what is in my budget. {I do all my digital art with Jasc paint-shop for the same reason.)

If Dreamweaver has a student price, then please do let us know.

[Zee_Man]

LOL hawkone its not educational, its mostly all just thinly veiled flames