[Jezebel]

I was trying to do an exercise the other day after reading the sargent notes, one similar to the head thread started a while back. I decided I would try and paint from a famous portrait focusing on carefully placed, blocked in shapes.

So I sit down and start attempting this, but much to my annoyance it always comes out a scribbly mess now matter how hard I try to keep the shapes solid. The reason behind this is because of the pressure senstivity on my tablet I think. I'm wondering if maybe I shouldn't have "opacity" turned on so that I just work with solid colors.

Craig's work is a good example (of course) of what I mean:

http://66.8.172.73/hirez_pgs/forum/forum5/elektra.JPG

Gecko and Flushgarden are good examples too, even Ripelly's latest.

Now I know everyone is going to say, duh Beth... it's all about practice. But it's not just the quality of the work that I'm talking about, I'm wondering how you all make the very hard angles strokes look so solid. Are you constantly picking up new colors and painting them over one another? You using the opacity feature? Every using any selection tools to make hard edges?

Hmm. I'd really like to be able to portray the face as a bunch of hard planes for practice, but it's hard to do that when my strokes keep overlaying and looking all streaky. I don't know if any of this even makes sense... blah.

Sorry

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Jezebel ]

[Ripelly]

Heh, I've been considering putting up a similar thread about how people handle their edges, but I really didn't have a clear thought what to say.

But anyway... I've been using a method which goes basically like this: I use paintbrush tool at 100% opacity with only pressure sensitivity on. When I work with the edges I use hard edged brushes and keep resampling the colour almost constantly (which often is like after every stroke) and I keep my left thumb ready to press ALT for quick access to the eyedropper tool. I use relatively short, quick and gentle strokes (hey I'm using size A6 tablet!)

If I find the colour is too dark/light/wrong I just quickly pick a better one near the area I'm working on. If I feel the colour/value is not right I open up the palette and pick the colour/value I'm searching for. Then, using careful and light strokes, build up the colour/value on the top of the old one and when I'm satisfied, I just sample the new colour and carry on.

Learning to work with the quickmask is recommended, as well as using the lasso tool. Paths are also very good for making long and curved edges.

But this is just my random babbling and I really wish that even part it made any sense!

[A.Buttle]

I've wondered the same thing many a time, Beth o' Death.

Like, how does Craig manage to throw down a bunch of loose lines and make it look like something, albeit a sloppy something? Like that Elektra one. You can see the hand strokes, but it works.

[Anthony]

I've been doing quite a bit of painting lately for my demo reel animation sets, and I've noticed that I keep painting my mattes more and more...matte. Flat hard colors. I think what happens is since you paint large, when it goes to the screen your eye will blend the valus together. Perhaps if they're too smoothly blended to start with they look off. I know airbrush art has always bothered me. One thing I like to do is to start to go over an area I want darker with a new color. Do a few rough strokes, then eye dropper the a pieceyou think looks like the shade you want, and doa flat paint of the shaded area with that value. Seems to work well at keeping it clean, instead of trying to shade with the hard PS brushes. But notice how much variation there really is in the values in the scribbles in the pieces you chose as examples! It almost never stays the same long, but is usually pretty close-close enough that our eyes can put the two together. You just have to put the right value in the right place to build the form. For the face, try the angles head Fred posted awhile back. Each plain should have its own value, so just define them. You oughta join me in doing these speed pics, it's great practise(even if most of them turn out like crap ;]

[Rinaldo]

ok, I'll have a shot at this.........

Is there a link to you're attempt someplace?

I was going to suggest you try and do something like this. the portrait pics you have been doing lately are great but at the same time they are extreemly flat.
often lots of smooth smudgy work is an easy way out. you get a result that looks "good" but its more about hiding from your weaknesses (in the nicest possible way^_^).

I think what you are talking about ("carefully placed, blocked in shapes") is more to do with the way we think than the technique. you can see a lot of craig's pics do have that kinda overlayed look in places but it still works (it is a different kind of overlay tho). it's all about simplification. if you're going over a part of the image lots of times you're kinda missing the point. think in terms or flat shapes. even if you're using the wacom with opacity, you can push hard to get a solid opaque colour. think of it as if you don't have the pressure, just imagine you have a mouse. I think craig once said that it's good practice to start with a mouse (I don't want to go into over quoting him becuase I can't be bothered finding the tread, but he used a mouse to start with) it forces you to think in terms of shapes. didn't Mikael use no opacity for ages or soemthing?
incedently I would look at Micke and Joachim for the sort of thing we are talking about.

in the seargent notes it mentions that he would do a painting over and over. I think this is what you might want to try. don't try and salvage the pic too much. if it starts to get over complicated and overworked select all and clear! =) (or create a new layer, heh)
I would imagine it's not about using totaly flat shapes (althgouth that is a good exercise) it's more about thinking simple. you really have to get into values to make it work. if you go really simple and the shapes are wrong or the values are off, it's not going to look right (in fact it will prolly look totaly wrong, and you'll want to smooth it out ) do lots of thinking, avoid trying to make it work by working on it. you only have to make a limmited ammount of strokes ot make it "work" so concentrate on getting them right. you have the ability to undo as well in the digital realm, which makes this kind of thing easier.

with that said, it's not always neccesary to do it in one stroke. (it's very hard to do that with PS, as opposed to a paint brush). the sort of shapes that you can get with one stroke of a brush tradiionaly are infinite you can get a huge range of shapes, big and small. in PS you have a pathetic range really. so you will often need to work at a shape in a sense, work it back and foward (without going smudgy!) cut into it with it's surrounding colours. loose some edges (edge control is a huge part of painting) if you want but keep things simplified. you can still have soft edges while having clean shapes in a way.

in the sargent notes I think it says something about painting the face over into the background and then working the background back over it to create the edge of the face. or in other words, don't have a white line in between where there's no paint/colour or where they meet in an akward way. (I suck at explaining things=P).

good "solid" shapes doesn't mean you can't have bits that fade into nothing or soft edges. to my mind it's more about clarity in thinking and clean execution. work on the values, becuase that's what will likely make it all click into place.
keep it fresh. don't overwork. and don't be afraid of starting again. it's not a mistake becuase you've learnt something. it may take a while to get the results you're after but it'll be worth it. the more crap you draw the less crappy your work will be:P (that goes for everyone, not saying you're work is crap, it's great!).




[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Rinaldo ]

[jeffery]

the quick and not-so-easy solution is, try just unchecking the opacity box for awhile. it'll learn you fast.

[Muzman]

I think I have the same problem. And I'm gonna disagree about turning off opacity. I think it's important for getting the feel of the stylus. Just push harder and use a solid brush. 'course if your crushing the thing in a death grip to get solid colour you might want to adjust it
If I read CM right, it's all about shape and form ("well duh!" they cry. Stay with me). Craig's sketchy, semi transparent lines are ok for him, but I think looking at his stuff like that belies the slower, more deliberate basis for it. He riffs around easilly because he has that form stuff to fall back on when things go awry. If you don't (a la moi) then you end up with a mid toned, muddy loada scribbly mush.
All this stuff was in that heads thread ages ago. You can the fun stuff and go for very slow, deliberate strokes of strong colour/tone (I say tone because it's easier to do this with black and white). Where you would normally scribble, take it slow. Very slow. See how long you can go without lifting the brush (I don't know if CM said that one, but I find it helps me). Start with very few tones, block in the base shape. Cut back into it with the background colour where you go wrong and for added definition etc etc.
Well, it's all pretty obvious and Rinaldo has it covered really. I can't help joining in. From one scribbler to another.
But anyway, the key is -sloooowwww-, less strokes, less tonal variety. I also find it useful to actually correct stroke mistakes on the 'canvas' rather than undo-ing, or as 'Naldo says, start over.

[worthless_meat_sack]

Really good info posted here, I agree with most if not all.

beth, post what you have done.

[Jezebel]

Yes... there is a lot of good info here. Thanks for the nice explanatory post Rin. The images I started with were greyscale, I imagine that's the better way to start so I don't get thrown off by color information. I trashed all the ones I did the other night but I'm going to attempt the exercise again. I will make sure to post when I am finished. Thanks for taking the time to respond everyone... gonna take another stab at this