[tayete]

I mean, I've observed lately that there's a post nearly every minute. And there are thousands of registered users, and it is suppossed to be thousands of casual unregistered viewers.
The matter is that at its begginings, this forum intended to be a place to show your pics to improve your technique, learn from others' experiences and such.
Now, with an overcrowded (New York) forum, nobody cares about others' work, unless it is to flame them, or to say "whoaa, wow, great, you are the man", and so (I must say I include myself in this case).
I discovered myself searching for other art forums, and specially looking for those with only 300 to 500 registered users, where I could post and somebody would tell me what I am doing wrong. Some weeks before I couldn't think of other forum than Sijun's, but my actual impression is that people only watch Craig Mullins' pics, Sijun's ones, and the usual ones, and that whatever they create will be inmediatly filled with answers telling how good they are (even though they may have failed in that work-nobody's perfect).
And well, those who are starting, those who *REALLY* need the answers and guidance, are the ones who get 0 reviews.
I think we have lost the perspective a bit, and there is no easy solution to this. The forum is at its peak, and until it returns to a more moderate stage (it will, as soon as people realize they get answers in another forums and not here, etc...) new readers/posters will come here, and nobody will help nobody.
Resuming: this forum has just become a "Gallery forum", which is OK but it is an idea I do not share for a forum. Particular web sites are for that purpose.

Now, you can flame me ("If you don't want to be here you can leave", etc...)

[Svanur]

I agree with you in somepart, beginners and amateurs get ignored when the volume of the forum has reached this capacity. I am guilty myself of watching only some nicks and ignoring others, a bad habit which I am trying to amend(now I look at the subject). I doubt there is an easy fix for this. There have been other art forums but people are like a moth to a flame here, they leave other forums to join this one.

[dr . bang]

Hey, i think the forum quality has gonne up alot. I notice ALOT of quality work in this forum, i've seen the worst at this board and it's definitely not right now. One of my solution to get lots of replied? Post your work at multiple msg board, i do that all the time

[tayete]

Well, there is one thing that could put some hope into the newbies:

I've noticed in some forums, that near the "# of replies" column, there is a "# of views", with the total of people who have seen the pic.
I think the UBB forums can use this feature, but I don't know the reasons why Mr. Sijun did not used it.

Implementing that, at least newbies could say "Well, I got 0 replies, but at least 350 people watched my state-of-the-art pic".

BTW: Nice expression "people are like a moth to a flame here" SVANUR. In Spain we would say "people come here like flies to honey".

[creatorstudios]

I'm kinda sorry to ask this, but since I'm pretty new to this forum I so far had the impression that it's going really well. There are lots of answers on each thread - and even the so called newbies get their replies. It might take a day or two though. But considering how it would be on a 300 people forum it would certainly take just as long.
Of course I have no basis for comparison since so far I only have been familiar with Mailinglists and don't really know any other good Digital Art Forum (besides some purely 3D related ones). So maybe if anyone would be so kind to point me out to some others ? I don't wanna leave this forum - it's been great so far but I wanna look into other ones as well.

Thx in advance
Jens

[tayete]

Well Jens, maybe that is your impression, but you just have to take a look at some of the titles of the posts:

"Please, please, crit me!!!", "I'm down on my knees, comment my pic!!!", etc...

And yes, there are *SOME* posts (as I said) that get all of the answers. What is funny to me is that those posts are the ones that need no crit, as are made by real artists, with a real art background.
Now, take a look to the rest of the posts...how many can you find in the page 2, 3, 4 and so in the Finished art forum, with 2 or less answers? Tons of them. And some are people really trying to learn.

[Freddio]

very True Tayete

[Rinaldo]

I'd have to agree. it is a lot more fun to have a forum with a tight group of people, who take the time to really talk about stuff.


I'd have to say that I'm a bit guilty of not giving help where it's needed. After no small amount of crits that get either refused or in some cases flamed. not to mention that a whole lot of the time people are simply not willing ot listen, and want this silly one hit wonder crit that solves all their problems. the enjoyment of really talking in depth about the pics here with anyone but the people I know well, has vanished. I will almost never crit anyone or say more than a one line comment unless I know the person either personaly or well enough by reputation to figure out if they are actuialy going to listen to what I have to say. (most of the time I honestly have nothing to say tho. ether becuase the work is beyond me or I can't figure out what to say that would help. so it's just a quick comment^_^)
(I'm not saying that anyone has to listen to what anyone else says, but it's easy to tell when someone is simply choosing not to take on the information). I really feel bad about being this way. but I have written my share of half-an-hour-spent-typing-comments that have been largely ignored (and I am talking about stuff that is largely objective and widely acepted, not subjective fancy)
there is also the fact that after writing the same stuff out over and over things get boring.

I would like to see some of the better threads on here (most of them from a while back) get distilled into some tutorials. there are a lot of basics that have been covered here countless times. I simply don't have the skills to write said tutorials though. but I have thought about it a lot.

Blah, I feel like writing a lot more stuff. but I think it will only inflame the situation somewhat. I'm probably just a bitter old grump^_^ take no notice

[jr]

well, i'm pretty new here, (it's funny because i'm a new yorker too) Please pardon my spelling. i find that crits are the same everywhere (classes, messageboards), you get the people who just love to talk and give you advice from their rears and occasionally you find someone that actually knows what they're talking about.
unless i'm compelled to post a drawing that i need help on or want to show off, i'll leave it on my website. there are more experienced artist out there that might know more about a peticular subject than i do. alot of people post anything and expect praise for everything. others act childish when faced with criticism, well i guess some are just immature. i usually ignore those posts and let them fade. i mean it's not a right that everyone needs to be replied.

[MoleculeMan]

Well i think you're partly right. This place is huge. The problem is that so many people post that a large amount of the posts get thrown to page 2 and so on, and not enough people surf through them to get to the other pages.
I have found that while some of the criticism is harsh, that its mostly useful. Sometimes not many posts are made because 1 or 2 people will hit the problem on the head right off. I think the "harsh responses" you're talking about is Hamilton. Sniff he's mean ( ), but i would rather him give his real opinion that sugar coat it. Basically I rarely see posts go completely ignored.

I think the way to get more people to respond to your posts is to post more yourself. The more you post the more people will see a name and say "Hey i remember that person". I am guilty of searching for names and large amounts of posts too heh.

Oh well, i still love this forum.

[burn0ut]

i dont get critisim unless i beg for it.
it sucks ya.

i just come here to view perty perty piktures. and leave a comment if its nice.

i wish some better artist here would make there own forums, like francis has, theres not as much people, and i think its coo like that.

[Awetopsy]

Ive been aroiund these forums for a while and Ive noticed that too.. I still barely get any responses to some of my threads.. Ive always looked at it from the point of view that If I give lots Ill get some back.. so I spend alot of time typing out in other peoples threads. I do paintovers and sketch overs for people because perhaps people will do it for me someday... perhaps.

[Rinaldo]

a thought:

One thing I think we could all do to help things along is talk about what we wanted to do with the image.
so often it is impossible to crit something becuase it is in a particular style, and a lot of comments are going to be redundent.

was it meant to have realistic lighitng?

was it meant to purely focus on good graphic shapedesign, with anatomy and correct lighting a far distant second?

was the artist going for a comic style look or is that something they are trying ot get away from?

is the fact that the execution is a tad messy/loose a problem or intended?

I mean it is possible to tell after you get to know the person. but even then it's still hard to guess what we are really wanting help with.

is there something in particular the artist is having problems with? etc. etc. so on so forth.

even if you don't have any idea, there must be some reference in your mind. a particular artist or look. even if someone doesn't understand the specific terms and breakdowns of all the technical shtuff.

this is more to do with basic techniques and theory tho. not so much "tell me if there's anything wrong, I'm blind to the image"


*sigh* Idunno.

[jasonN]

The problems with crits and replies is always going to be a problem here or at any other forum.
A lot of the time I will try not to write a proper crit because I'm afraid that the person will get offended (this has happened before) and they'll just brush me off as 'someone talking out of their ass'. So I don't wanna come off as a dickhead so I try to keep it short and sweet.

So that's my story.

[cybertoker2001]

I AGREE WITH TAYETE ON THE MATTER OF A "VIEWS" COLUMN. I'VE NOTICED THAT AT MANY OTHER FORUMS AND I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA.

WE NEED TO ADD A "VIEWS" COLUMN NEXT TO THE "REPLYS" COLUMN.

I THINK THAT WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS AT HAND, BUT CERTAINLY NOT ALL OF THEM.


Take it easy,
CT2001

[MoleculeMan]

I think the problem with the whole views thing happened on another forum i was at. People would have like 3 responses and 200 views, and then 1 of the responses would be "I can't believe that 200 people looked at this image and there are only 2 responses".

I think that talking to people through AIM and ICQ might help too. "Make the campus smaller" as they say in big universities. If i knew a person i would be more likely to critique thier stuff.

[ebrian]

tayete, I quite agree with you that this forum is sometime "too crowded" especially the "Gallery/Finished Work"
It resulted in some of the newbies cant get enough help. But perhaps it is inevitable since it is growing so fast and become so popular.
My own suggestion is that perhaps we can divide the "Gallery/Finished Work" int different rooms. Put some real good work in one area and say-"need suggestion, no more praise. thanks" And the major area is for the not-so-good. hehe
Just a suggestion

[opticillusion]

Rinaldo's got a point, to try harder and see how you could help, or how they might improve on something..

I always say, say one thing good about it, and one thing they can improve upon. And one at the least if you have time for it. Cause if the people who want to try and improve the qualities of crits, and sit for a long time giving them...bets are that won't last a week.

If we try and point out one thing, then the next person won't repeat it, or they'll say they agree...and give another pointer, tip, or what not. Then all the replies can be a full crit. That's much easier than having one or two people try. (Of course this may sound a bit utopian, but it's worth a shot.)

Perhaps to help with that, you can say to do that in your post? That's the step I think is closest to helping with the problem of not very good crits.

As far as newbies not getting any help.. Part of it has to do with the newbie themselves. If they really say they're trying to get better, or show some sign of improvement...then they get the responses. It's the one's who just post a picture, with no real explination or what they were trying to achieve that gets their posts thrown down.

I'm talking aloud here...just my thoughts on the issue =)

[Briareos]

I really suck myself. But I try to help people that are at my level or lower. People like Craig Mullins and Steve Stahlberg are way above me, so I can't do much more then say "hey good work". I try also to post when other people pass over it. I think more people should do the same..

[Lunatique]

This problem has been addressed over and over again.

I'll try to rehash what has been said about this in the past:

The reason why many newbies don't get crtiques is because:

1)the level of their work is so much in the early stages of maturity, it's impossible to sit down and list everything they need to work on. It's like critiquing someone on their grammar when they just learned this new language 3 months ago. You would have to correct EVERYTHING they say. For most of the newbies, even the terms you use for your critique are foreign to them. It's just too difficult to explain composition, color theory, anatomy, contrast, and rendering technique to someone whoes understanding of drawing/painting is so little to begin with.

2)Because most of the newbies draw/paint at a similar level, you begin to avoid those threads altogether because you know you can't really help. Sure, we are here to share and help each other, but when answering/critiquing every newbie is equivalent to conducting an entire art course in a thread, it's just too much to handle.

3)It's been said before by others on the forum, and I'll repeat it again now:

Learn your BASICS first before you start asking for in-depth criticism. There are PLENTY of instructional books you can purchase/borrow from library that will teach you anatomy, figure drawing, color theory, painting techniques, drawing techniques, design, and even comic book illustration.

Once you have gotten all that behind you, it'll be much easier for the more experienced/professional artists to give you advice. Think of it this way: Let's say instead of art, you are interested in writing. If you barely speak the language, how can we help you become a great writer?

There. I hope that helped.

[Leo]

I'm totally argee with Lunatique, and nowdays this place can give you mainly exposure but no real crits (or just a bit of it). There are many reasons why it happens but as tayete already noticed "nobody cares about others' work" and opinion...

For example I'd like to share some of my expirience, say something about this or that work but those guys won't listen me they need real pros. Who cares about non-professional?

-leo

[Mindsiphon]

Check out the forums at In Depth arts.
In Depth Forums

[JiMSouL]

Speaking as a newbie and someone who generally sucks a bit in every respect with my art....

When i first started using these boards I got a tad miffed because I got no response and no interest at all. No matter how you look at it, it feels like a knock back.

Instead of worrying about it, I just got stuck into the rest of the boards. Droping crits, comments and trying to be helpful elsewhere, while i didnt do much, what I did say kinda helped put me in the community a little.

Next thing you know im getting a few crits and comments and a bit of feedback. Im not a professional artist by any means and most of my stuff looks like its been blended and glued back together..but...

The fact is that if you want feedback, jump headfirst into the community first. Its more encouraging for people to reply to someone who as made an effort, not just popped up and gone "Hi im new, crit me, help me improve. Ill take interest when its about me and reply accordingly" etc.

Everyone has a comment or critic beyond "holy wow" about every picture no matter how good or bad it is. Share whats on your mind and you are bound to see someone help you in return.

JiM.

[gekitsu]

my opinion is, that it depends of the people who are in the forum not their number.

i think it's the best both for "posters" and "answerers" if everybody writes to the topic what he thinks. if he/she isn't interested in that kind of discussion then it's the best to not post. if someone hast to say something, he should write it. if everyone here follows that, we will have the best art forum ever because lots of people mean lots of opinions...

[Sumaleth]

Everyone seems to have too many expectations.

Just because you post a pic doesn't mean you'll have to get a reply. It doesn't work like that, but there's no harm in posting and seeing what happens.

People tend to reply to pics they like, just as you'd expect. Nothing wrong with posting a reply to pics that do something for you - this is art after all.

As for critiques; there is really only a small subset of pics posted here that you can really crit purposefully. The artist needs to have already gone a long way on their own, and they must have a certain understanding of art before a critique is worth anything. So many users post "My first pic!" that they did in 20 minutes and there is nothing anyone can say about those pics apart from "keep practicing".

And I don't mean that in a scathing way - artistic skills only comes from practice, practice, practice. Critiques and suggestions can only ever tweak an image, not redo it from scratch.

--

From my POV the forum is thriving at the moment. If I had a wish it would be that more of the beginning artists develop their skills a bit before posting their pictures. But I do understand the wish to share your work once you've done something.

Row.

[dementia7]

You know one of my favorite forums in the world shut down and it was a designers forum and such. And like the same things would come up. It happens. Things grow. Best way you can learn is to look at what other people do right that maybe you are not, and fix it on your own. As opposed to having your hand held throughout the entire process. If you like the art so much you can always buy books on photoshop and drawing and such. And lest we forget taking maybe a digital imaging class at a community college and such not to ignore the value of just practicing at home. The idea that a forum will remain private and educational is unrealistic. What people want to see is what's new and hot. So if it exists then they will come. Such is the nature of a great product. And with more people come thre spectators who will only post things like "Great work" or "That sucks" this is just how it is....it has always been this way and it will always be. The best will get praised more than the beginner and so on and so forth. Two choices remain...get upset over it and leave...or deal with it.

but this is just my seven cents, I could be wrong.

[Lemur-X]

Never was upset. Just left. Didn't feel like putting up with juvenile attitudes, which the internet seems to coddle. Heh.

Btw, there are no digital art classes offered in my city.

None.

--Steve

[jr]

yeah lemur, some of the people on this forum are so immature. i urge all of you to ignore those posts. don't let a few clowns ruin this forum.

[Justin Kramer]

"Why don't I get any replies to my posts?" should be in the FAQ, seriously. And, "How can I get more replies?" (with JiMSouL's post and a blurb about "the basics" as an answer).

[Lemur-X]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've all but left the forums because of the general attitude it took on about a year after it's inception.....

People became too wrapped up in touting themselves as the next best thing. They started copping attitudes, flaming for no reason....belittling peoples' work.

All the while comparing themselves to Craig Mullins, Dhabih, etc....who I get the distinct impression of as being incredibly humble and helpful in their work.

The boards just turned into a global episode of 'Jerry Springer'.....everyone was sleeping with their sisters' dog, and tracing photographs, bla bla blah...

Simply put, it just wasn't a fun or constructive place to visit......that was a while ago, hopefully things have changed.

--Steve

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Lemur-X ]