[Kaiju]

Well.. whether they are good or not I wouldn't be surprised if someone did give them work. After all apparently people are hearing about them. Someone is bound to throw them a bone.

But yes.. they look very amateur and I don't think they understand the concept of matte paintings. Which is surprising if you read their resumes.

And you are not much older than me.. I don't want to read any "old eyes" junk.

By the way.. there is just something so wrong about this sentence "Welcome to my public front-end!".

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: Kaiju ]

[Frost]

Well, I can't do better than what they're doing, but they do seem amateurish to me. I suck, but then again, I'm not in the field professionally, so I'm allowed to say that I think.

"Pubic front-ends" (no typo) and all don't enchant me either.

[Loki]

of this site:
http://www.digitalinkillustration.com/ ?

they got featured on vfx-pro ...

hmmm ...

[Kaiju]

It looks pretty plain jane to me.. just like their art. Why do you ask? You are waaay more talented and original than this.

[ May 18, 2001: Message edited by: Kaiju ]

[Loki]

Thanks Kaiju!

But the reason I asked was that I was surprised that somebody would start their own business in hollywood with a portfolio like this.
Not to put those guys down, but the stuff, as you said, looks soso (there are many people here that rock the pen way harder) ...

Just verifying that my old eyes still see right

[Sumaleth]

It's scary me seeing something like that, because clearly there's something not quite AA level quality about the work, but on the other hand I'm not sure I'd be able to do better. In fact I probably couldn't right now, and the scary bit is that I probably wouldn't realize my own work wasn't AA quality.

But even thought it's not top level, it's still nice work. I'd have to say that it's along the same quality lines as the matte work for TV shows like Babylon5, Voyager or Stargate: SG1, and those work well enough in the TV context.

So I tend to think that it's a good move for them. They obviously enjoy that sort of thing and with practice they might reach those higher levels. If they can make some money while they're practicing then thats good for them.

(hopefully my opinion isn't too swayed by the fact that I want to get into that sort of thing)

Row.

[ShinShot]

So Sumaleth, what's this with you and AA? That's o.k. I'm a StN777 member also... .

Back to topic. This is reminiscent of my first trip to Cali back in the late '80's. A partner and I came out from Texas to show the effects we'd produced on a very bad, very B- piece of sh*t. What we experienced though, was everything imaginable and then some. We met with big-shots, effects artists, gardeners, from studios throughout California and they were very warm and more than willing to talk with us. The folks that weren't though, appeared to have a chip on their shoulder and/or were producing very mediocre work. Although everyone liked what we showed them (they were being kind, I'm sure), the only folks that were all too eager to give us work, were these more desperate, cynical groups. One in particular wanted to hire us on the spot.

"Knock this animated, matte filled commercial out in a week for $2K and we'll mail you the check. Sign here."

Very seedy with eyes darting about, but to their credit, they were out there and they were working. In the middle of producing a commercial for Texaco when we met with them so who knows? This site that you pointed out Loki, does seem amateurish, but if there is a point I'm trying to make (?), everyone has to start somewhere. They may be legit and just starting to get their feet wet, they may be sitting in a dark room twirling the end of a mustache with a raised eyebrow waiting for a bite. Once again, who knows? They most likely will get work either way. Long winded and pointless as I am...

More importantly, Loki were you able to hook up with other forum members after E3 yesterday? And klaiju, I too will be at Comicon and will try to look you up. Tall, balding, bespectaled and much older than you both. In a perfect world, I'd have wings...

Later and sorry if I made no sense in my ramblings...

SS

[YAZ]

Hmmmm....I dunno about this site...(very skeptical)...

[gowansy]

Hey did these dudes do the Matte Paintings for The Mummy Returns....

[quaternius]

Interesting points Loki -

gowansy -
I think you're right!

shinshot - good comment, everyone hasta start somewhere. Though they're not up there with the best yet - it's amazing how chutzpah, enthusiasm and persistence can sometimes net steady work over people who are often more talented.

And like you said, they will improve if they stick with it.

[Sumaleth]

http://www.blackpoolstudios.com/

There's the guys that did the old B5 mattes. Their new stuff is actually pretty good (at least to my eyes). And they've finally updated their site with bigger pictures.

Loki: any opinion on these guys?

Row.

[ViPeRIII]

So whats a matte?

Im one of those 'lost childhood' people

[v1510nAry]

I didn't know what matte was until I went to Spooges website,
but far I know its something which is digitaly or traditionaly painted and its looks very realistic (very very hard to tell the difference between it and a photograph unless u look carefully) ..

[Freddio]

heh..

Matte Paintings are placed in backgrounds of films..

So if in a scene they need a large building in the background, instead of building a huge set they just paint a building in.


Matte paintings are aimed to fool the eye. The artists blends the paintings in with the action happening in the foreground..

You can pick matte paintings in many movies.. if you can pick em its bad..

eg The mummy returns.. that movie had a few dodgy ones..


also the first Starwars films.. (though they were bad but you can pick em if look for them)


those matte painting were traditionally painted.. They painted them on glass or something im not 100% sure though.

now most (all as far as i know) matte paintings are painted in the digital medium..

[S4Sb]

Are you guys on crack? What exactly is soooooo bad about those? Everybody has to start somewhere? Huh? I think that guy is better than 90 percent here. What is it that makes those pictures so bad. The black and white colours when you point on their pictures show that they got the right value... no?

[Sumaleth]

s4sb: I'd love to hear Loki's answer to that question. Can it be put into words or is it one of those things you only 'see' once you're experienced?

Row.

[ May 20, 2001: Message edited by: Sumaleth ]

[Bg]

Their (digitalinkillustration) mattes are mediocre, but the animation backgrounds aren't bad at all.

[Freddio]

quote:

---

Originally posted by S4Sb:
I think that guy is better than 90 percent here. ?

---

yes well considering 85% of the people here aren't professional..

[wayfinder]

hmm that's one of spooge's matte paintings at the blackpool site.. spooge, did you leave them for freelance work? http://www.blackpoolstudios.com/firstunion.html

or did i get it all wrong again?

[Sumaleth]

Wayfinder:

Yeah I was surprised to see First Union stuff on there, but it turns out that FU ads have been done by a number of different post production studios; ILM, Matteworld, Blackpool, and probably others. Don't know if any of those three commissioned the work from Spooge or someone else.

Row.

[BlackPool]

There's a Blackpool studios!? And they do matte paintings!? Damn it! Now I'm gonna half to change my user name before everyone thinks I am one of them!

Anyway, as to the site in question--the matte paintings; As artwork they are great. As matte paintings meant to fool the eye into believing that it was actually photographed behind the actors, well..

When I was in school, I focused on matte painting for my demo reel (much to the frustration of my teachers who were trying to teach me how to animate for games). Well I did the best I could and sent it off to a professional matte painter to look at. He told me that I probably would not find work with the quality of work I was showing. He said it showed promise but was not at the level it needed to be. And honestly, my work on that tape was better then what is on that site in terms of blending with the live action. So if they can make it with work like that, the I will have a renewed sense of hope. Or shame, I'm not sure which.

[pixualize]

Er - yeah at first I though you were the same Blackpool but you live in Texas (like me )

Blackpool Studio has done an arm-lengths worth of work for all kinds of film and tv and was what sorta got me inspired to do digital art in the first place.

[spooge demon]

All the shots for FU bank commercials were farmed out to a variety of matte sources, myself included. The shots on Eric's site are his and his alone.

I have known Eric for a while now, we kinda got into matte work at the same time, but he stayed at ILM and I went south to freelance. He is technically WAY more knowledgeable than I. That is one of the things I missed working in a studio- learning from all the other film geeks like me. We worked together on that capitol shot for Contact. He did the compositing.

edit-learn to speel, dammit

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: spooge demon ]

[BlackPool]

DAMMIT!!!!!!!

[Loki]

Blackpool: Eric Chauvin is a great artist. He seems to be using a lot of 3D in his work - that's probably why Spooge says he's more technical than him.
If you guys look closely at the First Union painting, you'll see that it's quite different in the details compared to Craig's.

S4SB: no, were not smoking crack, come on ...

[Frost]

I'm not sure I like Eric's more than Craig's. In fact, I can spot some pretty weird stuff in Eric's... and not that I'm trying to suck up to Spooge or anything, but, these First Union pics by Eric don't do it for me. Maybe these are not his best.

[EDIT]
Hey, while I'm at it, might as well be a complete asshole and point out what I mean.


In this image, he uses a linear 3-point perspective, but they are not properly set up, as the vanishing point to the top-right is too close to the canvas... of course, such shots are just hard to deal with, as the depth level will be the most apparent looking directly down, and the perspective I beleive should be curvilinear from all sides from this point. A bad setup for a difficult image. Not to mention that the light crossing the street below indicates that the sun is perpendicular to the street and buildings we are looking onto, causing sharp shadows.. yet on the buildings themselves, the shadows are extremely diffused from lit to shadow... that's illogical to me.


That's another weird one in terms of perspective, lots of none converging lines, even though it's a much more complexe setup with multiple vanishing points. Simple things like the bad specular on the 'coin bulding' up front, the shaded coin that is way too dark for the ambiant lighting and the crooked shadow cast on it, and the shadow on the pointy tower top to the top left indicates that the sun is lighting the scene from UNDER the horizon...

All I'm saying is that I'm sure I would have a harder time pointing out flaws in Craigs... whatever that means.

[ May 21, 2001: Message edited by: Frost ]

[BlackPool]

That's Eric Chauvin!? Holy Crap! That's the guy I sent my tape off to. OK, I am sufficiently weirded out now. I got the name from that old TV series "Wizards and Warriors". From the evil king played by Duncan Regher, Dirk Blackpool. I wonder if he got it from the same place.

Anyway, if Craig doesn't use a lot of 3D in his matte paintings, then isn't he/you limited to still camera shots?

That brings me to a question. Matte World Digital described their process as making simple 3D models with "custom texture maps" applied to them. That term custom has been something I have wondered about for a long time. How is what they are talking about different then the texturing of any other 3D model?

[quaternius]

S4Sb -
I think you have to take these comments in context. The context is "high level of professional matte work". Not very many are at this high level, but if it's not even fooling my eyes as a non-matte painter it's kinda hard to understand how it would be good enough to be accepted by an Art Director or a Production director. If you hold yourself out to be a matte painter and put your stuff out there I would think you'd want to show better than this... I sure would...well, you get the idea...
That's all I'm sayin'... the pieces are fine on their own and the animation backgrounds look pretty good - we're just comparing how they stack up against a lot of the competition we've all seen, including Loki's work.

[Loki]

matte world's process as I understand it:

* They use 3D geometry, but apply textures where the light is already painted into the textures. They map it through the incandesence(SP?) channel of a shader - so it's values are constant. I use that myself quite a bit.
* With that they can put a camera move on it. Usability of this technique depends on the cameramove. The simpler the better.

[BlackPool]

Thanks Loki