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joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

I doodle in MSPaint and some of the doodles evolve into larger pieces (you can see the expansion lines in some of these; more to follow). Didn't think I was ambitious enough to try colour (in a large canvas) but yesterday...

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

This is MSPaint? OK..I will try that..
Did you mouse it or does MSPaint support a tablet?
This simple, very fast sketch..because I am short of time these next/last few days..was 212 kb in bmp..I took it into another program, made a few small corrections(?) and saved it as jpg..18kb,,Did you save back in another program or leave it as bmp?
I like MSPaint..I think the airbrush has a very rare calligraphic texture potential but the same problem as pen and ink..no mistakes..because corrections/effects are very limited..
I better label this because my drawings don't always look like what they are supposed to be..This is two figures..children ..

I am still studying the perspective drawings you posted..A friend gave me a book..Descriptive Geometry which I am going to study when I have a few minutes..Curved Surfaces..Yes!

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

FWIW I think the subject of your drawing is recognizable without the label. :) Yep, MSPaint, mouse. I use tif - or bmp; I don't think it matters - and resize/convert in anything other than MSPaint (resizing is not its strong point, heh). For corrections, maybe use the airbrush set to background colour (white); the leftover black (or gray) pixels sometimes suggest new forms - and on it goes. As always, depends on how much time you want (or have) to sink into it.

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

Joemo..
Those are Beautiful..Thanks for the information...
That is a texture I haven't been able to achieve in other programs ..You did a great job with it!
OK..an edited update here..Under Image ..there are resize options but I still can't find Crop..which is my usual "resize" preference..and the "save" is a personal problem with this computer..MSPaint will save in many different formats..if the computer is functioning properly..The white out is better than eraser ..That was a good tip!
Another quick sketch in MSPaint..

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

OK..What you said..."The leftover black or gray pixels suggest new forms"
That gave me this idea..
I painted a block (sort of) area with airbrush set to lt/dk grey ...Then I used airbrush set to white, a bit of grey pencil and a touch of eraser..I carved the image out of the solid block..rather than drawing outlines. more like sculptured in grey stone than "drawn."
This is what I came up with..IT is faint but I think it can be seen..

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Nice proportions BC. Edit: Sorry, meant to add that the eyes could be lowered to about the middle of the canvas, they're a bit high.

Options for cropping or resizing (also for anyone who's not familiar with MSPaint and might want to give it a go):
1. Image/Attributes (clips or expands canvas from bottom and right edges).
2. View/Tool Box (if the Tool Box isn't showing already): Select (button with dotted line).
3. Image/Stretch/Skew: resizes (by percentage) selected area or entire canvas.

Having cooperative hardware helps, for sure. That's what got me into this to start with (a long line of "tin pot" computers). Even with a new muscle machine I keep coming back to this airbrush thing (in MSP), I guess because it's got all the basic qualities that make more 'sophisticated' painting what it is (randomness of splattered paint; high potential for creating accidental forms; etc.) - but in 'human scale' (as mentioned elsewhere): accessible to the majority.

Cave painting with a twist? :)

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Oop, sorry BC, I was writing that last reply while you were posting your latest. Will be back...

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

BC I've been thinking of your previous comment "People make pictures if they have to use fire blackened sticks and mud smeared on cave walls by firelight.."

Yeah! I'm all over that, count me IN. :)

Understood re carved in stone (interesting effect). The greys seem to underscore the 'shyness' of the character...

I tried using grey (example below) but decided to make all values manually (using only black and white). Though that's just me, I enjoy tedium? Ditto re canvases that are a couple thousand pixels across (as above). One of the 'rules' I follow (which usually applies to halftone images in traditional printing) is "no white areas without black dots and no black areas without white dots".

060325

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Ref applied to an earlier sketch from memory. Might enlarge this and add detail, but later.

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

Joemo
One thing I have not been able to learn on the computer..or find a useful technique for learning is SHADING
That is learned with a pencil in traditional art and I haven't had much luck with pencils..
Computer shading is dodge/burn/ and push brush
I learned more about shading... "sculpting" in grey and white while doing that little drawing than I have learned from studying "values" tutorials for years..
Calligraphy...is now possible for me because..The ink splatters are part of calligraphy and other computer programs will only simulate variable line widths..MSPaint is a revelation..
I am glad you have demonstrated with such a high level of craft and artistic ability the capabilities of this "airbrush" in MSPaint

That fish is ..amazing..It glows... without effects /dodge/burn or any other computer quick tricks..

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Something resembling architecture, for a change. I wonder if the tops of the other two passages should be rounded. Will add some figures...

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Brake Check, cheers. I'm glad you have a useful shading tool (at last). I wish everyone would keep trying until they find something that works for them. You set a good example. :) Thanks for appreciating the fish. I wasn't sure I could do it without desaturating MSP's default colours, which is a pain in the butt kind of tedious. Found a way around it and learned something too (including: simply trust that it can be done). Re ambition and colour (my first post in this topic) I forgot about my first experiments in MSP, which were often done pixel-by-pixel:

'99

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

Yeah....I have bumped head-on into the "desaturation" of MSPaint Palette..That Pink is really Paink...I am glad "desaturation" of the native hues in that program can be done..and with such stunning results

I am an example?..>>>OK
1) There is a saying "Any one can learn to draw."
2) There is a saying "There is an exception to every rule."
I am dead set on proving that one of those statements is false...
So Far..
I am twice as good as I was...Now if that is true..then I am half way there..and if half way can be attained ...then all the way is very possible..
So I keep on keeping on
I appreciate drawing along with you..I am starting to understand that shading ..half tone..that you did on the architecture..I am trying squares of "shading" to see if I can duplicate the tones and values..

FallDamage · Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:53 pm

Joe, that last spaceman image gives me some serious nostalgia for the old dos games. Your treatment of the stars and simplification seems drawn almost exactly from old school space quest. I like it.

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

I wanted to post something tonight and my hot candidate crapped out. Instead, the drawing of the two kids (above) reminded me of this (from earlier this year):

070313

Brake Check, LOL@"Paink", that colour is way too much, agreed. Interesting you mention several points that I decided not to mention earlier (today), because constant praise goes flat (reminded myself of that). I've been thinking of a book called "Drawing on the Right Side of Your Brain" (or something like that), of all the things I've heard that say likewise "any one can learn to draw". Obviously there are lots of ways to see - mass/volume, line/vector, value/hue - and lots of ways to do. Personally I don't care what mode it is (some people do care) I just know I'm happy doing and I'm happy if the result makes others happy (someone mentioned this recently in another thread; ditto for me). Most people seem to defeat themselves before they start (they want a shrink-wrapped DVD, not a blank canvas staring them in the face?).

You're definitely "twice as good" as you were, I agree. All along I've been chuckling to myself and muttering things like BALLS, TENACITY, CHUTZPAH, because you haven't given up where others would. I know I've given up at times. So kudos. I appreciate drawing along with you as well, and I appreciate having this space - 'cave wall' (courtesy Sijun) - for us to plaster. That reminds me, I meant to do some knockoff 'cave paintings' (some of the originals were sprayed on, I think - LOL), need to dig up some references...

FallDamage, I hope nostalgia is a good thing <grin>. I have big gaps in my knowledge of computer games so any resemblance is coincidental likely (I'm not familiar with "space quest"). Glad you like. :)

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

I made progress when I realized there isn't any "easy" or "quick" way to learn this..
Traditional techniques..perspective, shading and proportion..
Those are what I am learning..It is sometimes tedious, boring and the rewards are slow but Now I am starting to go forward..rather than kid myself about an "easy" way or that I might have some "latent talent" that will be suddenly evident or that an untrained brain and hand will become instruments of artistic genius ..because I have deigned (tra la) to finally meander a pencil around a piece of paper..All of these miracles and marvels will thus relieve me of having to learn..proportion, perspective and shading..
And Practicing Daily.

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Break Check, glad you've settled in for the long haul. :) I happen to know that native 'talent' is no guarantee of success either. I was born an artist (so to speak) but my family had other ideas: 'We'll have no artists in this family, thank you very much.' Tortured artist stereotype ensues. :P Love that quote from Georges Braque: "I never decided to become a painter any more than I decided to breathe." :)

Large 'doeful' eyes aren't uncommon so I didn't see them as a problem (unless aiming for strict realism). In the same vein (ie. improvement), I realize now that working in MSP (no layers, limited undo) forces me to THINK about what I'm doing. I imagine thinking accelerates learning. :)

Quotations... googling Space Quest got me into my own nostalgia kick. Here's one for you, Break Check, from a favourite book (Dreamers of Decadence; I don't agree with the heroism sentiment but 'fear' or something like it is often a problem, for me):

"Artistic creation is an awe-inspiring commitment, a sort of silent, solemn duel in which the mind has to be concentrated in a fearless discipline." - Henry de Groux

Now where was I...

1. Discovery draft (with lots of nice texture that I should have worked with instead of removing). My first thought was "crypt":

2. Repeat of earlier post/image (above). Unlike 1, the value of the facing wall (the lighter one) and of the doorway at the top of the stairs are too close. Like one of those 'trick' photographs/drawings, the inner (black) archway sometimes resembles a cardboard cutout with a hole in it:

3. Finally<!>, here's that "hot candidate" mentioned above, which is still way too "precious" (the word I'm using for overworked to the point of being stale). No references, will go as far as I can without them.

4. What's a "crypt" without a dead person. That's how the reclining figure got there. I guess there's also a metaphor in this, one that I didn't consciously apply. Before I get to that: I plan to add four more figures (two left, two right), and to somehow work out the stiffness of the figures (bad pun). The background figures are too dark (100% black outline), temporarily. I was happy I at least survived the fabric/drapery stuff (I didn't give up) - then realized that 'centre stage' crotch really needs fixing.

5. Speaking of parents, a little story (as promised). A couple weeks ago one of the neighbour's kids (under age) downed a 26 of vodka (his 'reward' from the person he was babysitting for; how do you spell stupidity). I helped carry "the body", as I thought at the time, up the stairs (200 lbs, big boy). His parents wanted to let him "sleep it off". I thought that was a really stupid idea and called an ambulance. At the hospital his blood alcohol was .62, about a sixty percent chance of death, in adults (fortunately he didn't die). Yep, yep, yep. So yeah, in retrospect there might be more to this pic than a spontaneous crypt. Or not. :)

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Couldn't leave it alone (with the posture off kilter and all). Here's the fix:

Man, I need a beer. ;)

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

Talent..I am not certain what that means..I would not want the training and skill of a cardiologist to be described in the terms often applied to artists....*..raw genius..natural talent..* Yeah..bloody witch doctor..Even with natural aptitude and talent..doctors and artists are in for the "long haul."

Success..Ok..If you are a person who sits and stares at the first page of Jack Hamm' "Drawing the Head and Figure" and what really has you stumped is "page one, example one" ..The instruction says.."Draw an Oval"..and all of your ovals look like something mangled in a government shredder during a botched coverup..
Then here is how success is defined..(after drawing 10 pages of ovals)
I looked at something ..I drew it and it looks like what I saw..That is Forward..

A writer is defined and judged by the term.."command of the language." An artist has a command of ...what...Line? Shading? Perspective? That is why the eyes are kewl..but not as a habit or lack of ...command..or skill
(this post has been edited for clarity..several times..I think it is closer to what I meant to say..than what I originally wrote)

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

BTW..That is a very ..moving..image of a crypt..
One of our friends in high school..there was some game, chug a lug ..or some variation of spin the bottle..with straight vodka
I wasn't there but my brother was and one of the boys did die..after chug a lugging some large portion of a quart..My brother never said much about it..Just that the boy collapsed and the ambulance came..and he died..
Alcohol poisoning is what the doctor called it..

I am going to try a calligraphy (chinese ink drawing) tutorial in MSP..That is closer to real...no layers, limited undo and a fine texture for that art form..
I learn much from Chinese ink drawings...

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Brake Check wrote: "An artist has a command of ...what...Line? Shading? Perspective?"

I don't know what's 'right' and 'wrong' in all that's been said/written about art (I've read only a small portion, anyhow). I do know (beyond a doubt) that we can't say a person is more or less human, 'acceptable', by the quality of art they create (no more than by their grasp of mathematics, or whatever subject). I think an artist is a someone who produces, who generates his/her personal art, regardless. That's why I like the cave painting metaphor (partly as satire, partly as serious):

"To represent and recognize a solid three-dimensional object by linear outline was already a huge inellectual leap to have made. A line does not in reality exist to mark the boundaries of an object against its surroundings or against other objects. Tone, colour, three-dimensional vision and movement tell us where the edges of objects are in real life. The linear outline is a translation, an invented language, or rather the first phrases of a language with which we have learned to represent the visual world." - John Raynes, Michael Beazley, Figure Drawing and Anatomy for the Artist

I agree that art happens somewhere in the middle ground between art and language. By this, apparently some people see art as a stunted form of self-expression, a vagrant offense, a waste of time. If the rest of us are DOOMED by what we see and feel in drawing etc., well, so be it. :)

Er, contradicting my earlier suggestion (re "treating shapes as volumes"), there are times when line comes charging to the rescue:

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

BC: Collecting the bits I meant to reply to but didn't (I'm railroaded too easily by these strings of letters, once started):

Interesting re ovals, and that's an amazing result (your drawing), definitely a step forward. :) I used to draw circles, hundreds of them, maybe as an exercise recommended in a childhood 'art book', maybe just because the challenge in drawing a 'perfect circle' freehand seemed key to something (control, proportion - whatever).

Re the crypt, cheers. If it's "moving" (of course I'm too involved in it to know) that's partly a result of something you said in another thread, "Intrigue is overlooked in painting subjects..". Thanks for the tip. :)

Sorry to hear your school friend died of alcohol poisoning. Hard to comment on that kind of thing (words fail?). Misadventure happens; when adults fail the kids, that's another thing. BTW I don't mean to pick on parents (as above), lots of parents are really cool people. I'll stop now, before I get started (remind myself this is an arts forum). :)

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

MSP...Chinese Ink studies last night..I practiced some monks and bamboo..but these are free hand..no reference I drew them after I shut down the Chinese paintings..sort of a post test....I like the results in MSP..

You said.."I drew pages of circles." That is my point..about an easy or quick way...Everybody has to pay them dues..and that may include drawing pages of circles/ovals and other basic shapes..and it can be boring tedious frustrating...*But I wanna draw stuff like people...what is this "oval" jive?" is where I was kidding myself..It ain't always easy but it can be done...I can draw ovals..

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Big grin here, Brake Check. That's great stuff, no references.

Re Chinese Ink studies, I used to be into Oriental everything, though in a comparative religion context. Of course I noticed the art, in passing, and recall one term that I think sums it up: "restrained elegance". With the exception of some Tibetan tankas, and a lot of Indian sculpture, and... maybe I better reconsider that term.

I agree (as mentioned in another thread) that studying bone structure is a good way to begin drawing people. If you're interested, here's one of the better (head and neck) reference pages (IMO), and some excellent photographs here.

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

Thanks..and Yeah..I am really interested..I tried skulls / skeletons but ..at the time they were still somewhat beyond my meager understanding
Those pictures are something I feel I can tackle ..no harder than drawing flowers
The skull is very plainly marked..and easy to see how it all works

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Edit: This is going to be one of those every-time-I-look-I-see-something-else-needs-fixing things, I see.

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Eyeballed (no point perspective).

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

Glad the skull page is useful. I tend to loiter when I see a skull (in details that have nothing to do with external form). Here's an earlier doodle (sketch?):

070303

Brake Check · member Member # Joined: 05 Dec 2005 Posts: 126

A skull is a carved ball..I did draw skulls that were out lined only..and one was good enough that someone said I had "natural talent." LOL But I am working on shading the skull as a complex, 3 dimensional architectural structure..meanwhile..I am going to study hands..and ears...
I am short of time this week..work schedule..won't have much time..
The tibetan tanka..That statement had me flummoxed for a moment
This is Tanka

Speed Tanka...Time: Split Second

Within this slant rhyme,
The melody of the line
Seems as if by chance.
Listen to the soft cadence
To know the syllable's dance.

joemo · member Member # Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 80

LOL@"speed tanka". Thanks for the example. :) I wasn't certain so I checked the spelling in wiki (A "Thangka," also known as "Tangka", "Thanka" or "Tanka"), starting with the disambiguation page: "a genre of Japanese poetry", etc. I don't trust western spellings of eastern terms, best to double check. :)

Natural talent or not, am looking forward to seeing some skulls, hands and ears (eventually; sigh).

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