[asmodie]

I posted a some of my sketches here in the forum. Were I admit that I suck att drawing, but a have the passion to learn. So the first critic I got is that stop drawing and do something elese...That is FUCKED! How can sombody that loves to draw say to another person that they shouldn't draw because of their ability to draw isn't god. Do you draw coz your drewings look good or coz ypu love to draw? *excuse my english...it's a bit rusty*

I hope you know that this is't to all of you, coz I didn't give so mutch to criticize...but thanx for the help I'v got from the rest of you.

[Dryfire]

Well, thats a great post. I've always loved to draw and i've been drawing since i was pretty little. I still love it, even though I've never produced anything that looks "good" but as long as i like the way it came out, or even a certain way that i drew it, it's still important to me. Even though i can't draw anything good, I alwasy try to give it my whole, i'm still pretty new to drawing original stuff but i think that if you work hard (just like in everything) you'll progrss and get better, I know that i've gotten a lot better since I started drawing again (I decided to stop about a year ago for somew reason - got depressed)

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-=DryFire=-
'Reality is just a dream'

[nori]

maybe, asmodie, you should be yelling at the person who said 'stop drawing.' Why would you label the whole forum?

[jasonN]

Hahahahah! It was Isric! You're in the shit now! :P (j/k)

Dryfire said something good, that just as long as you are enjoying it and you like the way your pics are turning out, then that's great.

-Jason

[shahar2k]

well, I'd have to completely sympathise with you
my first post, I put up the gallery of my site, and told people to come and enjoy it...
the first message I got was "do we really have to enjoy that" followed by some flaming bags of crap at my virtual doorstep

anyways, I just ignored that first post, and lurked for a while (got a new name) and now I think I understand the level of stuff to post here, and that there were some assholes and still are, and always will be, of coarse you just have to not take everything seriously

I'm not saying anyone here is an asshole, just that it's pretty bad to tell that to anyone, hell if I tried to do a landscape it'd come out crap, but my 3D models look competent enough. so you never know what you'r truly good at untill you try it all.

[Feklore]

Who can really say what is good, or bad? Art comes in any form, it depends on what you are striving for. I have read a lot of posts on here, and I have never come across a reply to a piece of work posted where someone literally trashed it!

If you enjoy drawing, then that's all you have to know. If people want to trash your work, then let them, it's what matters to you

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Feklore

[Loud]

It must be part of the initiation process here... I asked for some advice on a good graphics tablet and the only responces were.
1: Banana
and
2: LoL

Wasn't much help if ya ask me. =D

[Isric]

Asmodie,

How are you? Still flaming mad? I added something new in that old thread, you if you would like to read it...

Let's get down to business. You asked for help. You also said, and I quote "Pleas give me some help whit my sketches...*I sux*".
I recently attended a seminar about future development and skill blah blah. When you said effectively that, �I suck?Eat drawing, my mind made a connection. If you do what you are good at, then you will be happy (this is not a cheesy seminar where they try to sell you a book, corp. executives go to these things). If you do what you are not gifted at, you will be unhappy (This is why such a huge percentage of people hate their work).
You asked for help, just got out of this lecture, you said outright that you have set a low standard on your own stuff. Put it all together and what does that spell? A change of careers.
To put it simply, it was all situational. If I hadn�t attended the speech thing, I wouldn�t have said that. It IS a form of help though. A lot of people spend their lives doing something they say they�re not good at, and they end up depressed. It was really just so I could say something other than �practice really hard and draw from life?E those get so boring after a while.

I can say I�m sorry, I mean, I�ve done that here a lot anyway (hah, my first post was meant solely to stir controversy �I hate Frazetta?E. People on the net say I�m a prick, people in real life say I�m nice, guess it�s that anonymity thing. Sorry if I offended you, it was a terrible mistake. One that I�m sure I will make again and again and again?Ebut, I will also apologize ever time.
If there are any more question or comments you have, Asmodie, please ask or speak them.

Isric



[This message has been edited by Isric (edited October 21, 2000).]

[Rinaldo]

Well I can pretty much say that that is BS Isric- I am strongly against any notion that someone is "gifted". Hell when I started to draw I was REALLY REALLY bad!

Gifted is a stupid stupid word. It's general and not in line with much more helpfull technology on learning etc. We can sit here until the cows come home debating Nature Vs Nurture. It doesn't matter. People can learn to draw just like they can learn to walk. It has, does, and will continue to happen.
Someone is more likely to be predisposed to a particular subject on which to base their drawings. If someone is here then they most likely want to draw. Drawing is a skill just like reading and writing. what you draw, what you draw with and how you use it is a different matter altogether.

I understand that you meant well, but anyway.

[lotor]

I agree. I know that nomatter what I really try to get better at I eventually will.

Do you think that Leonardo Da Vinci was just gifted at everything? Hell No!!!

He worked and studied his butt off.

I have always been able to master anything that I really tried whether it was sports or art or whatever. I devoted much time and energy and before long I was good at it.

asmodie: Just use those rude remarks as fuel to get better. When ever you get tired of working or feel like you want to quite for a while and watch television just think about all those people telling you you can't do something and work harder to prove them wrong.

HARD WORK HAS ALWAYS PAID OFF MORE THAN JUST HAVING RAW TALENT. Norman Rockwell could vouch for that if he was alive today. Of course you might not know who Rockwell is because your from Sweden but let me tell you that I saw some sketches of Rockwell's when he was young and they were not that good. But he worked hard and has become the most important artist ever in the USA. He also was such a good illustrator that he bridged the gap bettween illustration and fine art, because people love his illustrations so much that they put them in museums primarily for fine art.

Just use the criticisms as fuel. And make sure you can look at your work and know that it is ready to be seen and studied by others before you post it. I know some guys on the forum post sketches that they have not worked that long on.

Don't be so sensitive. Even the greatest artists works got ridiculed now and then.

[Plop]

Mind develops in the direction of its focus. Thats why I believe talent is the result of longer focus. So all you need is desire and time. Don't listen to anyone who tells you to quit doing what you love.

[Dominion]

if you could learn everything else why can`t you learn how to draw good??
I mean you could learn how to knit, how to make clay pots and so on. So why the hell couldn`t you learn how to draw good??
And if anyone had a finished ability to draw then why are there art classes?
I think that if it`s really your passion and you`re willing to learn and comprihend. You could learn whatever you want.

To be honest Isric i got kinda upset when you wrote that if you`re not good at drawing at first then find something you`re good at..

And i honestly belive that you could become better than just "good" with hard work and determination. The only limit is how much you want it.

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/Dominion



[This message has been edited by Dominion (edited October 21, 2000).]

[Binke]

Hmmm, this is an interesting topic.

A few years ago I really thought, that you had to be born with the "gift" to be able to draw/paint good. But now..well I believe that anyone can learn how to paint/draw IF they have the interest. When I say interest I mean, even if they hear from people that they suck, they go on, 'cause they just love to draw.

But I also believe that there are gifted people. Those that stand out from the mass. There are alot of good artists nowadays, but there is still a few people that stands out from the mass..why? Because I believe they are the gifted ones. I for one can see a few of them, on this forum.

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Art Dimensional

[dr . bang]

Craig Mullin's teacher told him that he sucked at the beginning and he should go into something else. And now, i think his teacher is living inside a cage and crying all day.

[This message has been edited by dr . bang (edited October 21, 2000).]

[Isric]

This is one of those never ending debates, so I'm not longer involved.I'm not saying anything more after this.
Lotor "Do you think that Leonardo Da Vinci was just gifted at everything? Hell No!!!"
It's not a matter of being gifted at everything, just one or two in particular. HE was gifted at representing reality in the greatest way possible, and he used that to the best of his ability.

Take what i said as you will. If you look at it from my point of view, you'll understand that it wasn't an insult. If you guys want to continue this futile debat,good show. I'm off to draw some pictures.

[This message has been edited by Isric (edited October 21, 2000).]

[Rinaldo]

*Sigh*

Isric I don't think anyone was saying it's an insult (that word's too nice). It's a way of thinking that basicaly says we have no chance of ever becomeing good or being happy. The very existance of the concept is an deterant for all begginers. "Gee the first drawing I did was crap. Well I guess thats it, I'm simply not gifted". "Hey that cabnet making stuff looks interesting, I'll see if I'm 'gifted' at that"

I mean come on. What are you saying. There is no light side to your comments. Nothing you can say is going to make the fact that "you are not gifted and will never enjoy your job or be happy 'sorry'" seem less of a devistating blow.
There is no happy meduim or Grey area here. It's B+W. either you're right and we should all give up or your wrong and we should continue.

[Alan Tew]

Just another opinion to add to the pile... I'm new to posting:

Practice is the only way to teach it.
Love is the only way to make to make learning bearable.
Talent speeds up the process and makes it truly great.

The "talent" part breaks my heart. I've met people in both the traditional and computer realms that have all the love and all the effort but missed that "something" they needed to get where they wanted to be.

www.beeba.net

[Nightime]

Just like to quickly add

It used to be, back in the old days, that to tell if a young kid will grow up to be a great artist is if he can draw realistically.. that was a big criteria!

But, that has changed and proves it's not always true. Painters like van Gogh, and C�zanne, were not the most excellent drawers when they first started. But, perseverance is key here.. for instance, Gogh would draw something, then tear the paper to shreds, and draw the same thing again, and again! In his later life, he was not only considered a knock out painter, but an excellent draftsman.

So the word of the thread is: Persevere and love! It's what separates someone who does drawings for the fridge, or sketches for an entrance portfolio.

-JJ


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JJ / Nightime
http://members.home.net/jeremy12/web/

[This message has been edited by Nightime (edited October 21, 2000).]

[asmodie]

I'm glad to see so many replys on this mater.
Coz I think, in oposite of Isric
, that many ppl are unhappy whit their work coz they don't do what they love to do. And what is the thing stopping those ppl from doing what they want to do? My guess is that men like Isric creates an illusion that result is the only thing that counts. I'm not going to stop drawing coz som idoit say that drawing is for result. I draw for the love of it and I get better by the minuit.

Isn't art in the eye of the beholder? Coz peronaly I think Leonardo Da Vinci realy sux. And artist like Dahbi rules...(remeber I said peronaly)

I for thos who think you can't learn to draw. You'r idiots, coz there have been studies that say just the oposite.

[[gsn]kore]

I suck at drawing on a computer and that makes me mad sometimes.. Im good at drawing on paper though that doesnt make me gifted.. to me there is no such thing as gifted because it took me forever to become good at drawing lots of hard work.. Just because I dont like drawing on the computer sometimes doesnt mean I should stop and learn something else!

[wigin]

sorry guys but ithink i SOMEWHAT AGREE with Isric =(... I think ALOT of people on this forum ( from what i can see ) just start drawing or doing art because they saw something they though that looked good and they would love to be able to do that... All i can say is that some people are good at art others are not. I really think people should do something that they are good at and not something that they think looks cool and wish they could be for exemple "as good as Dhabih". Like i said some people have the hand eye coordination AND in my personnal opinion that cannot be taught by anyone. Im not saying that it cant be learnt but the people that dont have a manual dexterity and i know what im gonna say next will be mean and i am sure alot of people will be pissed at my post but i think that the "drawing type of art isnt for them ".

just thought i would give my opinion...

[Rinaldo]

RRRRAAAAGGGHUUUUU
wigin-You cannot see what inspires someone. That is such and ignorant view. Talk about tunnel vision.

I think that people are seeing "Drawing" as a multitude of things. Tests have shown that ANYONE with enough motor control to write (even if it be badly) can learn to draw from life and "see" what they are looking at. The mechanical aspect of drawing which is the main thing that for us represents who can draw, is easily tought in a small ammount of time. Then you have the memorising aspect, anatomy, perspective, composition (to an extent). things that help us to create images from scratch. IMO those can be learnt as well. they are mechanical tasks.
Now if a person can learn all these things then they would be reguarded by all on this board as good. If they posted an image you would be impressed becuase of it's technical competnecy. However they would still be limmited by their imagination and style. This is the person showing through. That "special something" is not to do with drawing IMHO it has to do with personality and the way that someone uses their ability. Sometimes I just look at some pro's work and say "hey that's nicely rendered", but my mind is chugging away thinking "yeah but man is it boring". You can see people who enven though drawing ability in a technical sense is limmited, have the coolest images. It's not about how good they are at drawing it's about the person in general. This does not mean that one should give up drawing.

I think I remember hearing that there are different kinds of people, those who are visual, those that are aural, and those that are about physical contact. I thnk there may be more but I can't remember. This might explain why some artist can see something before they have draw it (see it three dimensionaly and position it etc.) and those that don't see what they are about to draw until they put a mark on the page. This may contribute towards that "somehting". Escapist personalities often have runaway imaginations as well etc.

The one thing that I have noticed is that all the really kick ass drawers in my childhood didn't care if their drawings were "correct" they just drew what they wanted and the rest sort of just worked out. it was as if becase they wern't so self conscious they didn't make as many mistakes. In addition The viewer didn't recognise them as mistakes so much becasue they were done fluidly. Now IMHO one of the things holding back imagination is a lack of confidence. if you can be confident enough to draw badly and recognise that you will in time get better then you can focus on what you are drawing as opposed to how shit it looks.

In addition I would say that doing the lessons in the "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" book will save at least a few years of the really frustrating early work for begginers, and make learing anatomy and all that stuff much easier. (I would still add IMHO to this but only by a fraction)


*sigh* I just don't see that saying people will never be able to draw early on is usefull. To hear it is devistating. Especialy if someone like Isric who is a nice guy and likely to have begginers who like his work and respect him. I mean how would you feel if you approached one of your favorite artists and they basicaly said "sorry kid, you just don't have it". I don't think that "special something" is going to necessarily be eveident early on. There are heaps of good artist who were inspired by other artists, started late, couldn't draw or a mixture of these, whatever. they then found somehting they liked and have enjoyed doing it ever since. It may take time for someone to find the style and subjet that connects with their personality. Putting off begginers who have fragile egos is plain criminal.

[Tinusch]

Everyone starts at the same level. It's just their surroundings, exposure, observations, and practice that allows them to excel more quickly. Everyone can do it, it's just a matter of whether they have the right mindset to want to get better.

[Tinusch]

Oh, and one more thing...

In response to wigin: "I think ALOT of people on this forum just start drawing or doing art because they saw something they though that looked good and they would love to be able to do that"

Well, I think that just the fact that they had the motivation and the inspiration to want to try their hand at art shows that art is what they enjoy. I know a lot of people who might think a pic looks cool, but then they just forget about it and don't do a thing. Those, I think, are the people who just don't have what it takes. The ones who are unwilling to try. But if someone sees a pic, is inspired by it, and then gets started drawing their own creations, I think that's evidence that they have the motivation to become a good artist.

Just my opinion.

[Isric]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I can't help it.
Asmodie said
"My guess is that men like Isric creates an illusion that result is the only thing that counts. I'm not going to stop drawing coz som idoit say that drawing is for result."

Buggery Hell! Weren't you listening to a damn word I was saying?! For Frik sake...
I don't give a flying rats ass about result! Just about everything i do goes unfinished, and I don't care, I LOVE to do it. If it was all about results I would be working for a game company right now, but i'm not, why? I just love to do it! Eventually I may work somewhere, in which case I'll be perfectly happy.

You all seem to misunderstand the essence of what I'm saying, and a more people are just going to get pissed off at me for this too. Who bloody cares anymore, it's impossible to do this in type.


"I think of it like this (comparing art to the violin):
-There are those who take up the violin, and suck, so they stop.
-There are those who take up the violin, and out of practice and determination play until they can't play no more. People generaly agree they are good. Nothing more said.
-Then there are those rare, briliant people who pick up a violin, and suddenly it sings. It's no longer violin music but a beautiful melody inspiring emotions and feelings you didn't even know you had."

Maybe I'm saying it wrong, I wish I had someone with more diplomatic skills with me right now.
People who practice are good. That is good! I'm not saying its bad or stupid! For goodness sake I was just saying something different. I have been practicng since the age of 3.
What I mean by those who are gifted, is that they accelerate faster. EVERYONE Must practice. Even the gifted, especially the gifted.
There are those who draw at the same level now that other people drew at when they were 5. What does that say? Only that one person has practiced more. Fine, I can agree with that.

I have read "Drawing on the Right side of the Brain", and since the whole right side left side thing is being debated in medical circles, I'll hold off on comments. I (PERSONALLY!!!!!!) use that little violin reference. ANYONE can learn. I'm not saying you can't. There ARE those who are geniuses at it though.

Again, these are ALL personal opinions. What I said to Asmodie was said without knowledge that he has been drawing for a long time.
I couldn't tell. He didn't say. If you're going to take what a stranger on the net says that seriously, knock yourself out. Rinaldo I always love to hear from you. you obviously put a lot of thought into this stuff.
I personally have recieved absolutely NO instruction, amature or proffesional. Ever.
i'm not sure what that sys about me. I only draw cause I love to. No art teacher has ever given me good advice, no artist has ever told me something I didn't know. I'm 17, not sure what that says about me, amybe I am a prick. An Asshole, just please open your mind, as I have had to do so many times, to other points of view.
If you need me to clear anything up, just ask, cause I'm to tired to look back at what I read. Peace. Literally.




[This message has been edited by Isric (edited October 22, 2000).]

[yoshi]

I think it's extremally important to see what you're doing wrong. I wouldn't call that talen but a good taste. You need to see what you're doing and appreciate good things only, otherwise you'll be runing in circles unless you have a good teacher, or you go throught some of a training. If you have a shitty taste you're not aware of what you're doing, you don't notice your mistakes.

[Isric]

I like that.

[asmodie]

What is bad taste? There are paintings woth milions of dollars that looks like a child drew it. But what do I know...it's good taste I guess.

And if you follow your "good" teacher nothing new will be created. Look at all the famous artist, thier fame lies in the creation of someting new. Yes i think it is good to have a teacher in some ways, but sometimes the personality goes away whitin time if you try to draw like the techer or your source of inspiration.

It got pretty hot here...think I'll stop here for now. To mutch to do...

And Isric...I don't know who you are...but I'm sorry for in some way misunderstanding you. But I still think that is a stupid coment to a fellow artist to say that he/she should consider to stop drawing. I love to draw, but I'm not good at it...hopefully I'll be some day.

A word of wistdom:
"Everting lies in the eye of the beholder"

*over and out*

[ceenda]

erm... is it not

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

or have I missed out on a very good joke?

[A.Buttle]

Ceenda's right. And it's hardly wisdom: it's clich�.

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I wanna get with you, girl!...
And your sister, I think her name's Debra....

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day