[agent44]

I'm just practacing a little with the subtle colors in flesh tones. I quickley scetched this out to experiment and I colored it with PS. What am I doing right and what do I need to do to get this right? Any suggestions?

[Jenn]

Hehe.. Its prety good.. Cept it looks like you have smudged one side and not the other.. Which makes it look a tad odd..
One side looks a little too dark too..
Otherwise nice.. There is also smethng about her eyes but I cant place it

Keep us posted

PS: Can you recommend some good pencils?

[Tinusch]

I touched it up a little

[Jason Manley]

I hope this helps...

http://www.goodart.org/artofwb.htm

the answers are always found in the masters

look at rembrandt, bouguereau, sargent, anders zorn, william merrit chase, nelson shanks, claudio bravo, etc...

all of these men were amazing and are amazing portrait artists...definitely the best or at least some of the best.


jason

[A.Buttle]

Tinusch, you are such a great artist!

Those clouds are so detailed!

Did making those lens flares take you long?! They're so cool! What settings did you use?!

I love filters! Yay!

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I wanna get with you, girl!...
And your sister, I think her name's Debra....

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[Liquid!]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Manley:
I hope this helps...

http://www.goodart.org/artofwb.htm

the answers are always found in the masters

look at rembrandt, bouguereau, sargent, anders zorn, william merrit chase, nelson shanks, claudio bravo, etc...

all of these men were amazing and are amazing portrait artists...definitely the best or at least some of the best.


jason

---

Jason - while I think what you are saying has tremendous merit I don't find it all that useful. Hear me out. You ever consider if it was as easy as to just study a perfect Rembrandt then no one here would have to post any of their pics, because all they would have to do is 'look at the masters'. Much of art is in seeing things 'correctly'. That means noticing subtleties, shades, spatial relationships, etc. These skills can be helped along tremendously, if someone of your considerable talent would take the time to give some constructive criticism that applies to the posters particular image, rather than sending them straight to the pantheon of old masters. Don't you think?

-c

[Liquid!]

I think your comments above are much more helpful, than telling someone to just look at a particular painters work. What I think you seem to overlook is, that not everyone can digest the same information from looking at a partiuclar painters work, due to the fact that people's skill sets differ greatly. Do you think you're getting the same information from looking at a Sargent painting today, as you did 10 years ago? Even a mere 3 years ago? I guarantee that today your senses, instincts and understanding are much more finely tuned and thus the information you're processing is infinitely more acute. While I'm not advocating that one should spoonfeed someone everything, I very much believe that you have the power to make people see something that they would not have been able to see without your guidance. Drawing well is not in the hand, its in the eye. Its all about 'seeing'. So ultimately lend your skilled eye to someone, and you'll give them the opportunity to focus on areas that they may never have seen otherwise.

In the end, what makes this board so unique is that so many extremely gifted artists, give so selflessly of their time. In some ways, I'd like to think it makes the forum more valuable than some art classes I've seen taught.

Hope this doesn't seem like I'm rambling.

-chris

PS: agent44, sorry for going off-topic here.

[agent44]

Jason- your right, I do need to look at more masters work. I love Sargent and I was looking at a webpage with a bunch of Bouguereau on it, which is what inspired me to do this little exercise. I just need a little direction as far as what colors are good for the underpainting and what not. Your final words were really helpful. Now if I can just find the time to work on it some more.

Liquid!- thanks for clearing things up, but do you have any advice?

[Tinusch]

Well, I think that if everyone just looked at my sample pic above, you'd learn quite a bit.

[Liquid!]

Agent44 - First off, I'm no expert. Skin generally can take on many tones in the environment. So I think its save to say that there is a wide range of colors you could get away with. Of course, there is also the fact of skin being thinner at certain spots of the body and thus more pinkish as the 'blood' shows through more (womens breasts come to mind). Lastly, as Jason mentioned it very much depends on the environment too. Is it light or dark? Is it cold or warm? What is the source of illuminations, yadda, yadda..

Anyways, here's my toughts. Overall I would strive for a bit more 'eveness' in terms of color.

Here it goes. These patches are a bit too warm:



These are somewhat cold.




Notice its not necessarily the colors that bother me as much as the dipsersion of the 'patches'. They seem to be intermingling.



Face a bit altered for proportions. Mainly shortening the chin, and upperlip.



Took out some patches, evend out the skin a bit and made it a bit warmer.

All this is just to give you some ideas, the general colors you had were fine as far as I am concerned. I'd consider this mainly a matter of taste.

Hope this helps.

[pierre]

Agent44,

forget the flesh TONES, concentrate more on how to COMBINE the tones.

Looking at the masters and admiring their works can help alot, but only doing that serves a risk of having the opposite effect too in some circumstances. Look at the work of a master, love it if you want, but also, do not love what you think you should not love. Critize the master that is the only way you can learn from her/him.

I agree with Liquid that only looking at a master is not the way to go, very often you need to see a master through a master =)

[agent44]

Holy Cow. Thanks Liquid! for the example, it's more than I expected. Not that I don't expect a lot, but...I just...well, thanks. Oh, by the way, whenever I verbally say Liquid! am I suppose to shout it or just speak it like any other word.

Thanks to you, too pierre.

[This message has been edited by agent44 (edited October 18, 2000).]

[Fred Flick Stone]

I agree with Liquid and Pierre. THe masters are only a start. Flesh tones are harmoniuos to the color palette you are working with.
Andres Zorn used to paint fabulous paintings with just Yellow Ochre, Venetian red, Wihte and Black. YOu can get just about any color from that palette, so long as the entire image is made in that palette.

On the otherhand, look at the work Liquid does, Joe Chiodo, and many other moody color artists, and you will see that flesh can be painted in any range of colors.

THe color palette you are working with is fine, you just need to isolate your thoughts, and get rid of the patchy darks, as Liquid has already demonstrated. Think of painting the head like this, and this is only if you have a color palette similar to the traditional palettes, and very similar to the colors you are using:
THe forehead is usually the yellowist part of the head. THrough the eye/nose region, use more reds. THe reds in the face indicate surface, where blood flows just underneath. That is, the nose and the ears are more surface than mass, therefore the blood under the skin is going to effect the surface color a bit. THe cheeks, expose to a great deal of sun will also have more complexion on them. Not to mention, adding blush to a females cheeks in a painting adds more warmth over all to the face, giving it a nicer appeal.

The moving into the muzzle region, on a male, you would use more blues, this is due to the hair stubble growing in the beard region. On a female you just want to cool this area down. Either add more white if the flesh appears creamy, or greenish and bluish hues mixed with the warm flesh colors you are already using, to help roll this part of the skull, the less exposed portion of the face to the sun, unless you tan on the baech all day...

ANother important thing to remember for painting purposes: If you are using warms in the lit areas, use cools in the shadows. If you are painting the face with cools in the light, then use warms for the shadows.
This is a big tip that I learned from just about evryone of my painting teachers. This really does help separate the lights from the darks. At first, seeing this bright green color in your palette may seem intimidating, I am talking paint here, because it doesn't look as though it is going to help tone a flesh tone down. But the reality is otherwise. That green really helps immensely. For the digital painter, you are definitely going to be using these colors as well. Mixing them works well when you have your opacity turned on, and leaving it way down at 20-40% so the color doesn't kill the fleshy surface.

I really like what you are doing with this image, it reminds me of a water color wash image. Take Liquids advice on rejoining the spots of dark on the face. These darks are shadow patterns, and they define the true depth of the form. Good luck and very nice image. Really like those eyes...

[burn0ut]

woot! great information!!

thanks liquid!, pierre, and fred!!

[agent44]

I went back into it a little more. How does it look now?

[phreaknasty]

.

[This message has been edited by phreaknasty (edited October 19, 2000).]

[Jason Manley]

getting better....looks like you are being timid...push the value range...find the values of what your shadows and what your light is...make it feel lit.

I will do a demo for you so you know what I mean...Ill get it up for you as soon as I am done.

Jason

also fix the drawing problems....the shape of her face and the proportions of the lengths of the face...look at your resource more and study a portrait book that mentions facial proportion...keep pushing.

[Jason Manley]

hmmm...while telling someone solutions can help immediatley with their work I do find that there is often a hundred solutions to any problem..i.e. the flesh seems too grey is something that could be said...well one solution would be to put more fleshy warms (a spectrum of them) in areas that traditionally have more pink in the flesh of caucasian people(nose and cheeks) or anothe solution is to put a less saturated color (a warm grey perhaps behind the figure so that the color beefs up in the flesh (all color is relative to what it is next to and if something seems too dull you can surround it with even more dull colors than are there and it will glow in comparison) I find that there are too many solutions like this that can be found simply by looking at the masters. You can look at a master painting and ask "what is different about theirs that might make mine better...more value range...larger color spectrum...tighter drawing ....diffferent expression...etc....all the answers are there....it is just a matter of asking yourself the right questions.


if you are doing something in color and do not paint a background color when you start then you have nothing to compare your color too while painting...that is part of the struggle with the piece above...It is difficult to paint on white. Most of the masters paint on a warm earth tone or on a neutral grey green that is either warm or cool depending on the colors they want to stand out in their paintings.


Jason


Look at the masters more...that is why you dont find the answers you seek...you have to look very hard to understand what they do...they are all doing very similar things with color/composition/lighting/form/space etc...the ansers are there...keep looking

[Freddio]

haha Tinusch

I touched it up even more now mines the best yay..



not this is not my image just my touch up...

heh

Beautiful use of lencse flare and text effects dodge burn smudge tool airbrush ripple filter lighting effects...and reuced quality for size..

now how good is this...

[phreaknasty]

heres my lame attempt (based on liquid's version). i've never spent much time thinking about this issue so this is just as much an attempt by me to learn as to show what i think the tones should be.



i was using a mouse for most of this so i screwed up some of the anatomy like the ear. i tried to fix her neck up a bit. i wasnt brave enough to add any greens

[Chapel]

Wow... lots of great advice here. Great tips Liquid!, pierre, Fred, and Jason. I think one thing to keep in mind is that we all learn differently. I don't like to be spoonfed the info, but I do like it when someone can break down the pic and explain what is going on. I've never thought about flesh tones the way that Chris explained them. Learn something new every day... course now I have an excuse to stare at women's breast. "I'm checking the thickness of the skin. Its an art thing." (Then I can analyze the side of my face on how it reacts to sudden pressure.)

[Liquid!]

Agent44 - Glad it was useful to you!

Your re-worked version looks much better already. The only thing I would suggest is that you move your shadow just a nudge to the left.



PS: Personally, I shout 'liquid' EVERY time someone asks...

PHREAK - nice job!


[This message has been edited by Liquid! (edited October 19, 2000).]

[agent44]

Liquid!, Jason-okay, tried to punch up the colors a little. Am I getting the idea?



phreaknasty-it looks beautiful. How'd you get that blended watercolored/guash look?

[agent44]

Just wanted to thank everyone who took notice of my feeble attempt at trying to do skin tones. Specifically, Jason, Liquid!, and pierre, what a valuable resource you guys are. You've given me a lot to digest in my little artistic brain. Hopefully, I can turn it into something really presentable.

[Jason Manley]

Better...remember that there is a full spectrum of color(from dull clean color to brighter colors)...look at more master painters. It is good to see that you are not afraid to lay in the color...awesome....just dont be afraid to tone some of it down a bit.


Jason


pay attention to the values of your shadows...do your shadows have darker and lighter parts(core shadow..dark...mass shadow..the large part of the shadow...and reflect/fill light which is the lightest part of the shadow and often as dark as the darkest parts of the light)


Keep it up


jason

[agent44]

I just did this one. I tried to apply some of the principles discussed earlier. How does it look. Is the previous one a liitle too, yellow?

[pierre]

I think that we sometimes spend more time looking at our color palette rather than on our canvas. When it comes to skin color, that is understandable because we skin everyday, and almost everyday in sunlight, hence we get its correct tone, and hence we are very sensetive about those often received tones. That is why a slightly error in the tone will cause us to immediately react to it as "wrong". There are several things that makes skin look like skin, one of them is indeed the color, but the most important thing is the, like I mentioned above, the combination of the many colors that we will surely detect on the skin. And that is also one problem, the amount of tones makes us often forget the value aspect. We can all look at a black and white photo or drawing of a person and still think that it looks like skin, even though there is no tone, except the monochromatic, present. That will make us understand the value of values in the tones,

It is interesting that Fred Flick Stone mentioned Anders Zorn (one of my favourites. The first thing that attracted me to him when I was a little lad was his lovely water color paintings. I still hold him as the best water color painter ever, even to this day. My first artbook was about him )because he was what you call a "value painter", had a limited palette as Fred mentioned (just a correction Fred, his palette was comprised of "Golden Ochre", not "yellow ochre" and "cinnober" not "venetian red"). That is, if you ask me, the best way to start out if you want to learn how to combine the right tones onto the right place. He achieved a BLUE color without having a blue color on his palette (he used "ivory black" which gave him a cool grey when blended with "zink white"(his white, he preffered it because it gave him a better flow for his "a la prima" technique), and when put against his golden ochre, whoops, it became blue.) He made a nice little painting when he first started painting in oil colors, which was relatively late in his life, with only golden ochre, white and black, you would be amazed with all the colors he achieved with this limited choice of colors.

Just something to think of, If you want to make a painting bright, make it dark, if you want to make a painting colorful, don't make it too saturated.

Good luck!

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http://www.crosswinds.net/~pierrehannah