[shahar2k]

now I know this isn't even remotely art related, but I believe that the board is filled with intelligent people who I would like to get the opinions of, and thus I'd like to post my own opinion.

this is what I know, mainly from the news and Israeli sources:

4 israeli soldiers were captured by the alestenian police, They were sitting in jail when a mob decided to storm the police station, and take over, 2 of the soldiers ended up dead, thrown out of the station's window, into a mob foaming at the mouth, one escaped, I'm not sure what happened to the last one, afterwards Israel retaliated by bombing them....

As you all have heard me brag, I come from Israel and I'm damn proud of it, or at least I WAS damn proud of it, I don't know which side to support here I really don't, and I don't care who started it, or who did the worst thing, these two little 5 year old kids calling themselves nations should both be slapped across the face.

If the US wants to be the policeman of the world let them enter and ENTER NOW because I've lost all faith in either of the nations both the young Israel and the even younger palestein to use at least one Iota of their brains to think about what the reprecussions of their situations are, to themselves and the worst of all, to the world, this is a war breaking out people, and by taking sides, we only make the situation worse, lets end this now.

[This message has been edited by shahar2k (edited October 12, 2000).]

[Visigoth]

Humanity chugs hairy donkey nads man...I learned that the hard way. =\ I share your frustration with the way people treat each other...Why can't people stop thinking in a circle? =P

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Your car is a fiberglass penis extension.

[Lukias]

am reading this in the paper right now.
I agree both sides are stupid pricks and I feel they are fighting for fightings sake, in other words *you hurt me i'll hurt you back*, don't fuck with me attitude. The fighting comes down to teritory and religion, one thing I've never really understood is that so many wars are fought over religion. Do their beliefs say that if you disagree with another then this entitles you to murder him. I think most religions preech love in some form or another, though how many hold to this, many choose the side of violence. I'll never understand...idiots...bloody idiots.

[kig]

<Crusader> anyone else find it ironic that Clinton condemns Israeli retaliation against the PLO, then turns around and says the US will retaliate against the parties responsible for the Cole attack?

Oh well, if the US gets involved it'll just escalate into a global political dominance game.

[Bilbo]

This is not entirely accurate..
there were probably 2 (although some sources claim 3) israeli reserve soldiers, which were on their way to their base. they arrived at Ramallah by mistake, and were taken by the palest. forces to the center of the ramallah, allegedly for investigation.
they were then beaten to death by the Palestinian officers inside the station, and only then were their bodies thrown out and mutilated by the mob. The fact is that the violence started for no reason- the israeli soldiers posed no threat to the palestinians (they were even dressed as civilians) , and that it was started by the palestinean Police- which is supposed to be under direct control of yasser arafat. This is the reason that the israeli retaliation attacks were targeted at offices and headquarters of the palestinean authority.
It's quite amazing - the way the world media tends to show Israel as an agressor, while it is merely defending it's citizens and soldiers from the fanatic palest.

That said, all i really want to say is Why the hell do we need all this shit? Havnen't the pathetic humanity learned over the years that war leads to nothing but corpses?

WAR = BAD <--> PEACE = GOOD

why can't just anyone see that??

[This message has been edited by Bilbo (edited October 12, 2000).]

[shahar2k]

well bilbo, thank you for sharpening the facts, I think what you said is more accurate than what I said, but I still absolutelyl refuse to take sides, I believe that by taking one side or the other, we just prolong the conflict, causing a bad situation to get worse, this was started with a mob, it CANNOT end with a mob just pick up your prejudices and leave the argument, unfortunately I'm not sure this message will ever reach proper amount of people, and the past will once again repeat itself.

[Bilbo]

I agree entirely, although not taking sides is quite difficult when you ARE a side.. i might get called to do my reserve service any minute now, and it's not something i look forward to.

pathetic, so damn pathetic..

[phreaknasty]

to paraphrase

http://news.excite.com/news/ap/001012/07/tech-israel-palestinians

"RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) - A Palestinian mob killed two Israeli soldiers and dumped their bloodied bodies in the street after the pair were captured
with two other servicemen Thursday in the explosive West Bank town of Ramallah, witnesses said.

The deaths dramatically heightened tensions and left little hope Israel and the Palestinians could negotiate a truce and bring an end to two weeks of
bloodshed that have left at least 94 people dead, the vast majority Palestinian.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak said the attack was "very grave" and canceled all appointments.

There were conflicting reports on whether the four reserve soldiers were in uniform or civilian dress.

The Israeli army said the four were reserve soldiers who made a wrong turn and inadvertently ended up near the center of Ramallah, a flashpoint for recent violence. The four were
detained by Palestinian police and immediately rushed to a nearby police station. Rumors quickly spread that the Israelis were members of an undercover army unit that tracks Palestinian
fugitives, a claim the army has denied. More than 1,000 Palestinians surged toward the police station, said Rashid Hillal, a correspondent for Palestinian TV and radio.

Palestinian forces tried to keep the mob at bay, but about 10 men broke through a second-floor window where the Israelis were held, according to witnesses.

Several minutes later, the attackers emerged from the station with blood-covered hands, and the bodies of two of the soldiers were thrown down from the second floor. The mob
surrounded one corpse and shouted angrily, the witnesses said. Both bodies appeared to have been shot in the face, the witnesses said.

A third soldier, badly injured, was handed over to Israeli forces. The fate of the fourth man was not immediately known, though Israeli media reports said he may also have been killed.

The attack on the soldiers raised grave questions about efforts by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan to broker a three-way truce.

Annan said early Thursday that "he received assurances" that Israeli and Palestinian security officials planned to meet together with their U.S. counterparts to discuss the current unrest.
However, after the events in Ramallah, it was not clear whether Israel would attend.

A resumption of Israeli-Palestinian talks on a comprehensive peace settlement appeared extremely dim."

[shahar2k]

thank you phreaknasty, now what's your oppinion on the matter?

[ceenda]

I agree that the violence is horrific. I was walking through the University yesterday and there was a stall manned by the Arab students who were protesting about the troubles in Israel.

I don't really know enough about the problems to be judgemental though. Many of the adherants of my faith(Orthodox Christian) have chosen to leave Israel and Lebanon because of the troubles there.

Israel has been controlled by many different nations over the years, Jews, Arabs, Crusaders and it's hard to percieve how the territorial disputes can be resolved.

However, I don't know who decided that the US were supposed to be the world's policemen. Many problems are caused by the US government's foreign policies(I'm talking about the government BTW, I highly respect the Americans as a people). For instance, America's insistance on being at the forefront of World justice has isolated them as a target for countless terrorist groups. They(the US goverment) would do well to seek UN or European mediation regarding the current problems in Israel.


[This message has been edited by ceenda (edited October 12, 2000).]

[ceenda]

I just remembered a saying that I once heard.

quote

Quote:

War doesn't tell us who's right or wrong. Just who's left...

[shahar2k]

you must understand though, that whoever it is that considers themselves a mediator should step in as soon as possible, and attempt to stop this, not because of the conflict itself but because of it's implications think about it, Israel is a nation that's been faught over for many years, even before it was Israel (Cnaan for the byblical types) however at the moment, it's at a point of weekness, which provides ample oppertunity for other nations to start attacking, even Egypt has threatened to break off the peace with Israel if they were to retaliate against the palestenians, and an american war ship was hit with a suicide bombing, and I find it hard to believe the revent flames in Israel have not in part affected that situation. if war does indeed break out, few nations can affoard to remain neutral, as Bilbo said, it's hard to not take sides, when you ARE a side. this will not be a local stint, and I'm hoping somone in the right position realizes this in time

[Muzman]

the US has been designated the world's Police force because they spend more on their military than anyone else and they've been scaring everyone with it for 60yrs, exploiting smaller nations, many of them allies, to further their own defense.
To spend so long and so much building and excercising authority over other nations and peoples I can't imagine why people wouldn't look to the resident 'power' to do something about any troubles there might be.
I'm not suggesting that the US is responsible or obliged when it comes to unpleasant world situations. But the population needs to better understand the kind of image their government and millitary have tried so hard to build (and succeeded in doing so, I might add).
You can't be the biggest and the strongest only when it suits you.

[Svanur]

I think we will never see peace unless we speak the same language, have the same religion and share the same color and perhaps the same nation (even though all humans are humans). Differences is what starts this all. People are so stupid. They think that everything will be better if they have a common enemy, something to unite them. Hitler did this, he knew that by using a certain group as the bad guy he could unite his people. Well people never learn, simply because they don't care.

[kig]

And hasn't the israeli army been shooting about ten palestines a day ever since the unrest started? A strike leads to a counter-strike etc.

[Rob M]

As for US involvement, im starting to see it this way:

The US is kinda like the weird family that lives next door to two other families. Only all of a sudden they start fighting, scratching the paint on each others cars, and yelling at each other all hours of the day and night.

So, the big ass body-builder Dad from the US comes over to each of their houses and says "God dammit! Shut the hell up, im trying to sleep! If you both don't end it and play nice im gonna kick all yer asses."

....or something like that.

[nil900]

In my opinion it's important to take site because I'm living in Germany and don't want to know what would have happend if nobody stoped the nazis in the second world war. We even have way to much of these fucking racists in these days.
I don't know enough to judge the situation in Israel I just wanted to say that it is important that somebody else tries to help solving the problem sometimes.

[nil900]

oops I forgot a word.

I just meant that considering the situation it might be important to take site. In most cases it's probably better not to involve.

[elam]

imo, The recent battles and killings have been a result of direct Israeli provocation. Was there an uproar on this board two weeks ago when that young Palestinine boy was murdered in crossfire by Israeli soldiers? Of the 100 or so people that have been killed recently, about 95 of them were Palest. Rock throwing Palestinians against gun toting Israelies. Not to mention that all this recent violence was started by Ariel Sharon's visit to the Western Wall on September 28th. A deliberate provocation. Palestiniens are treated like dogs in their own country. They are regularly discriminated against and treated like shit. Now, I am fairly ignorant of the history of the region, but my impression is that it all stems from religion. Who controls what holy sites, etc. Didn't Israel displace all these people in the 1960's, when Israel was formed? The violence mongers are winning though. Hopefully, cooler, more compassionate heads will prevail.

peace,
elam

[Affected]

Differences don't start wars. Intolerance does.

[::ronin]

i have been thinking of resigning from the human race for a long time..

nobody knows how to live at peace anymore. it seems that the new millennium will bring nothing more than wars and conflicts. some guy predicted like a thoulsand years ago, that something like this is going to happen and that the world as we know it will seace to exsist..
well to bad the people cant see that now.. when it's actually happening

quote:

---

i kill a man; they call me a murderer
i kill a thoulsand; they call me a conqueror

---

go figure..


(ignore the spelling.. )

[yoshi]

i'm into conspiracy theories..

There are bible prophecies that deal with end of the world.. Supposedly there will be a war between Arabs and Israel that will lead to a global war and beginning of a catastrophe. Bible says that Israel after many centuries of non existence will be created anew and within 100 years (or something like that) after numerous wars with its neighbors global conflicts will start. In the last one Russia and Arabs will wipe out US from the face of the earth using nukes. They will use so many a bombs that the earth will fall out of its orbit. Oh, hehe, we will have luciferianism as an official religion of the world under UN in the last days. Also, supposedly all mayor world wars, revolutions and other conflicts are staged (group of the same ppl put Hitler and Stalin in power, killed French and Russian monarchs, overtook British and US banks, put every nation is debt, etc) so the ppl of the world will be forced to accept global goverment as the only one capable of creating peace. The real reson behind UN is a totalitarism, global slavery.

[nori]

can't you have this discussion in a politics forum? alt.politics or random musings? I mean, this isn't remotely art related. It is one thread and no big deal, but it could encourage more off topic threads.

[shahar2k]

responses in inverse order:

Nori: the reason I posted in this forum, is because it is visited by so many people and so many people I respect, if I wanted to talk to a bunch of strangers, my local public bathroom is (as tony the tiget would say) GREAT. and if you think it's not about art... then perhaps you could explain to me how art is not about it. art is a reflection of it's times and I must say that over the years, wars have caused someof the most major art movements (help? anyone who's taken art history, nitty gritties aren't my speciality)

Affected: that's enough Deus Ex for you, actually I have a great book about nostradamus that you'll probably like. I think it mentions Sadam being the third antichrist as well

::ronin: I think that guy was Nostradamus, but the concept of the self fulfiling prophecy could apply here, thing is, this is not something that cannot be precented, this is PEOPLE acting here, and trust me, you CAN change things, I did not want to imply not caring by making my resignation statement, only that I think that the people I respected most, the people I considered MY people who I sensed I belonged to have shown me their worst side, and I just feel I cannot be a part of such actions and will not support either side both Ideologically or with my actions. therefore what I truly meant was that I have created my own side, long live passive resistance. (Visigoth, this goes for you as well, I have not lost faith in people as a whole, but I have shattered my previous Idealism)

Elam: It's all a matter of how far your memory goes, and no one's goes far enough to say who really started it. In the end, all three religions, and especially the two in battle currently,are based on the same basic local history, even Islam are the results of the teachings of Abraham, and there is more than ample historical proof that most of these stories are infact true (I'm completely discounting the supernatural by the way as I believe it's a result of misguided human perception) what I'm saying is that we are all eventually when you look far enough back, one clan, one group we're human, and unfortunately it's not easy to look that far back, and people usually go by what is closest in their memories, who is to say who started it,
I'll just say this, that by going to the temple mound, Sharon (the israeli politician) may have done something stupid, but the palestenians were waiting for ANY sign to break out in violence.

nil900: being jewish, I find it sickening at first that you are comparing the Israelis to the Nazis, but I'm a rationalist foremost, and I must say, that evil is blind, and will take anyone as it's minions. as sad as it is, the Israeli people have shown quite a bit of intolerance to outsiders, and while not yet at the level that german efficiency got the Nazis to, they have treated badly those who wished to join them from the outside. the Nazis have only become famous due to their place in history, they got caught big time, but Stlalin's massacres were much greater... they just lacked the machine like performance that the germans were able to provide (no this is not an implication on the german people) I am however aware that in the generalization of inhumanity, it is easiest to recall the well documented Nazis.

Rob M: yah I bet... americans are just like that, they don't care about the reasons of the conflict, or who's more correct, they only help those with US trade agreements or chance to get some, and only when the news becomes so strong that it becomes a burden on the public concience. That said, they do provide quite a bit of the worlds military power, and thus are feared/respected can't say much for their food... blech american food is just so... fake

Kig: so they are just supposed to stand there while the Palestenians throw rocks and molotov coctails and fire at us with their palestenian police weapons supplied generously by the Israeli government?

Svanur: maybe your partially right, at least about the common enemy being a great political tool (the US declared war on crime!! lets go out and KILL crime!) or how about my favorite political joke, that the OTHER political party is bad!!! it's not a freaking boxing fight, it's an evolution of Ideas, people have to figure out that a two party system is the most fake set of choices they'll make... better than nothing, but not by much.

Muzman: yup (sorry, I'm getting mentally drained from writing all these)

Ceenda: See my reply to Elam's post, if memory reached infinitely back, we'd all be friends.


anyone else?
I love hearing the oppinions of people on this board, and if anyone wants to say draw their oppinions as a political cartoon? that would be great, I think that could qualify as art as well.

[This message has been edited by shahar2k (edited October 13, 2000).]

[shahar2k]

bump... sorry

[TurboYVR]

there is a quote I heard somewhere that I'm reminded of during this... I wonder to myself how we can call our selves civilized and act like this.. anyhoo, here it is, short and sweet :

"A _person_ is smart. People are stupid."

[Snake Grunger]

Life's worth living, dude.

[A.Buttle]

I'm with nori on this one. Definitely random musings. And, your attempt to rationalize putting the post in Digi Art was awful.

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I wanna get with you, girl!...
And your sister, I think her name's Debra....

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[Seph|roth]

I have a very strong opinion on the matter but i wont get into it, I would just like to agree that this should indeed be a Random Musings thread. It has no relevance whatsoever with art. Theres been more and more threads like this that shouldnt be in the section of the website and because of that, people arent paying as much attention to art-related threads where people need help or opinions. I agree that this is a subject that attracts a lot of attention and it deserves it, but just not in the digital art forum.

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- Seph -
Listen Without Prejudice