[Snake Grunger]

It seems his arm upward doesn't seem right, please help me fix it .

[Fred Flick Stone]

I thought I might help here a bit. I only spent about 5 minutes on this redraw, and probably even less on this description. You need to find the centerline of the figure. As of now, the center line is off to the left, then kinda swings forward as it drops to the feet. Watch the hand extended too. It is a bit disjointed from the arm.

The boots are a bit off. They are a bit more head on than they should be. And watch the flesh tones, they are a bit much in terms of going light to dark. Even the image I did is not warm to cool division between the planes. I mimicked your colors, they should actually vary much more...

When doing images like this, work out the drawing before getting to the painting part. There are a few things in the drawing that needs to be worked out before you get involved with color, because color is a big monster in itself. This was a great job overall, just remember to get most of it all worked out before you spend so much time in the art.

Post the redraw when you finish...and put a background into it, too many posts with no backgrounds...

[Snake Grunger]

Thanks Fred! I will forever be grateful. I just finished reading "Dynamic Figure Drawing" by Burne Hogarth, and have started practicing the things he mentions. Initially, I had a geometric setup for the character on another layer, then I painted over it. I guess what you're trying to say is work on that until it's (near) perfect and then apply finishing colour and shape. I guess practice is what I lack and should work on. And only five minutes, you gotta be kidding me.

BTW: Why does he have to have such a big frown?

[This message has been edited by Snake Grunger (edited September 26, 2000).]

[Fred Flick Stone]

THe frown? I didn't realize I drew one in. I was just getting layin lines on the face. Hehe he is frowning, must have realized that China just got Hong Kong back, no more freedom...heh, j/k.

Post that rework when you finish...

[Joachim]

seems like fred explained it well, and simplified your picture in a nice and simple way. ...listen to him Why do I post this then, who knows ? I guess I'm just a bit bored of working

are you doing a game boy nazi game this time?

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Joachim's Place

[This message has been edited by Joachim (edited September 26, 2000).]

[SushiMaster]

Fred is back!

Daniel

[Snake Grunger]

Stoka - I told you, NO MORE GAMEBOY! It's like doing stuff for the C64, but with less memory and more colors

[Snake Grunger]

I reworked on it and here goes.. BG is pretty bland, didn't put too much detail into it, just main lights/shapes. Frost later helped me with last minute details, which I am very grateful



It's not perfect yet.. but it's definitaly better

[dorfie]

nazi, eh?

from the first posted image, i got the impression of a soviet border guard or somebody like that

[Moonlord]

damn, here is no place for nazi racists like you Snake Grunger.
There is no excuse for being like that!
you dissapoint me fuckin Nazi!!

I am German and cant stand people being so narrow-minded and dumb to act like german nazis did in World War II!

[Snake Grunger]

It's a simple painting, MoonLord. I admire the NAZI soldier's honor and loyalty and military strategy, but their beleifs and goals are inhuman. In no way do I want to promote racism.

Ich bin traurig, wenn ich Sie beleidigte.

[dorfie]

im not dissapointed in any way, shape or form

[Haarg2]

I think Hakenkreuzen/Swastikas are the otherway round as used by the Nazis...

Boffo.

--h2

[Fred Flick Stone]

This was from an email...

Now, I thought he was a Chinese soldier. The colors were deceiving. Those are the colors of the Chinese military uniform...heh...The other thing that seems a bit strange is that is a German soldier in front of an American Sherman Tank. It is a bit confusing in the pictorial read. I would have him with gun capturing the soldiers in the tank or something to that effect. If he is in precession then the tank should be German...

You did better in the skin tones, lights and darks, etc. The eyes don't quite look human, they are leaning too much on the cartoony side. There is too much white space under the pupil for how far we are from his face. And vary the values of the eyes also. I wouldn't necessarily use black to describe all the details. Look at some classic paintings, or some Rockwell paintings to get an idea of the colors you want to attribute to certain places in the painting, and especially the facial descriptions.

Also, he needs some sort of heel on his boot. It looks to stiff in comparison to the rest of his rendering...

Also about the background, use perspective a bit more effectively. You have the ground plan very high in the horizon which is making the tank recede too much to quickly, giving the painting a slight pieced together feeling. Best thing for this kind of image is look at photos shot with people standing next to tanks not only to get the scale correct, but to get the correct perspective with regards to the ground plane.

I think he also might be a bit small in height to that Sherman tank. I think that his head line should still fall under the top line of the body of the tank. Shermans stand roughly about 11' tall depending upon the armament and weaponry attached. This one looks about 8' tall. The scale is a bit off. This kind of drawing too would call for drawing out the entire tank and then cropping it to work more effectively with the image you are trying to achieve.

[A.Buttle]

Are you serious Moonlord?

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I wanna get with you, girl!...
And your sister, I think her name's Debra....

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[Snake Grunger]

Sorry to have dissapointed you ..

[Moonlord]

A. Buttle:
Yes I am serious. In Germany we learn a lot about the cruel past of the Nazi times. They killed way too many innocent people (especially jewish ones) without any reason it could have been.
To Snake Grunger:
From your post I assume you're not a German because otherwise you would know why I was so angry bout your picture.
I take this as an excuse for u using Nazi symbols and worshipping them.
This is an art forum where every artist can post his pictures he has drawn, but I am quite irritated that noone else has my opinion here.
Visit a few history lessons in German schools or a KZ where people had to work under miserable conditions until they died.
I'm quite sure that you would know why nazis are a danger to society.

hope I havent been too harsh. this little history lesson must be really boring for anyone not related to the theme.

[Frost]

Moonlord:

The Nazis pushed mankind's evolution a step - they were responsible for many great inventions and research, led by some of the world's most intelligent researchers and minds of that era. They killed millions upon millions of people, and were going to take over the world... a threat of that magnitude doesn't come every 5 years, and such a thing cast a grand effect over the evolution of people across the planet.

The fact that someone may draw an image of Adolf, some Nazis, or whatever does not make them Nazis or racist, or anything of the sort.

You are German. And I don't hate you for it. From all I hear, Germany is a beautiful country that I would sincerely like to visit. I think it's unfair for people to think of Germany as 'Land of the Nazis', and that is surely not the case. Yes, there was a time when the streets were crawling with Nazis, but that's that. Fuck it. That's a big problem I think, Germans are ashamed of their past even though it was generations ago, and they are still taking shit from certain people. The Jews are still complaining about things that happened to their grandparents and great grandparents, -- all because they are TAUGHT to. Same as some black people who keep going back ridiculous lengths of time to say that 'white men have always thought of black men as their slave'. Here in Quebec, where I live, the french are still fighting this stupid fight over language issues and their 'identities', and hate the english because the English had taken over the French CENTURIES ago, and that they were mistreated, etc. -- in exchange, centuries later, you are not allowed to speak english in a french schoolyard, english schools are closing by the hundreds or converted to french, and even the english schools have this program called 'French Immersion' where they have some courses in English schools taught in French.

THAT'S what pisses me off. Why do people TODAY have to fuck with everyone and bring back the past and point fingers and make life hell or bitch at anything for things that happened in the past and quite frankly have NOTHING to do with the present.

Well people of the world, my message to you is WAKE UP. Fuck the past. It's there, learn from it, don't forget it, but LIVE with it. Most of use in these days DON'T have any such issues persuing us personally, nobody to track you down and kill you or enslave you. NOBODY. So SHUT UP, take a deep breath, and live your OWN life, NOT your ancestor's lives.

Now, I'm not bitching at you Moonlord, because I understand how it must be to feel needlessly guilty for some people of your country has done generations ago, but come on, there's no need for that. Germany is a good and advanced country in the world, and I for one respect it. So don't let history put you down, it has NOTHING to do with YOU, so just drop it.

So, if I feel like saying 'NAZI' or drawing NAZIs, that doesn't MAKE me a NAZI.

Thanks for reading.

regards,
frost.

[Joachim]

actually this guys isn't a nazi at all. I thought he was, before snakG placed the symbol. The nazi symbol is the other way, I think this is a symbol for some sun god or something (you should know this moonlord ). So, his hand is up since he is worshiping a sun god. -Problem solved

hum hum

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Joachim's Place

[Chapel]

I think you are right Joachim. I remember seeing that in a Japanese comic. I think it is a symbol for a sun god.

[YourMum]

Hi u! I read this thread trough and many interesting things were told. I still can't understand Moonlord's first feelings and comments. Nazis were absolutely barbarianlike people but there were also many people who didn't know what was going on at first. Hmm.. it would be interesting to talk about this thread all days and nights.. I have read and learned a lot of this topic because I have studied history. Hmm... I love these history topics.

-Juha-

[Rorshach]

while you're all on this 'facist feeling' thread i just couldnt resist posting ...



Its from the headhunter texture set for the SingleMalt level.

r.

[Rorshach]

Re -read the comments here regarding moonlords .. points. Thought I should give my thoughts.

For perspective...

I'm scottish, lived in scotland, then England,Belgium and now germany across the last 4 years.

I first 'got into' the facist propoganda art when I was at Reflections working on a game called Steam. It was set in Facist britain.

Since leaving reflections I've went on to refine and finish the work started on Steam ( it got canned, I went on to work on Driver, PSX/PC versions), in the style it was intended because its different from the fascination games have for 'clean shading' these days which bores me..

Anyway, thru the course of the last few years i researched a few countries propoganda, and trying to be as delicate as possible here the only difference in slogans and attitude between all these countries policies (including my own) is that the Nazi artwork was much better.

Now I understand this is still and always will be a touchy subject ( with reason ). But thats also why the style of art will be constantly challenging to make and view.

Its powerfull stuff.

Just as gigers works sexual connatations are challenging to many. If you see my point?

I could say a lot more, afterall I did a lot of reading on the subject the last few years, and I've done enough of this style of art now to have been labelled a nazi myself a couple of times.

But theres little point, for some its always going to be offensive and for others its not. You cant please all of the people...

When reading up, I found out that the Concentration Camp thing was kinda pioneered by the Spanish, then souped up by the British in the Boar war in 1890... quite a while before Hitler took this piece of the past and did what he did.

I guess im trying to say this material has been around longer than most of us think and isnt something that can be laid squarely on the German's doorstep.

Afterall, now I live here I can see the echoes of their past in their eyes and understand their want to move on. They have afterall , more than any other country accepted the burden of their mistakes.

Moreso than britian has, moreso than america, moreso than Japan.


r.

[detonation2000]

dammit frost, you can read my mind.
I agree with you 400%.

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As soon as your born you start dying,
so you might as well have a good time.
-Cake
Vertigo Designs
[email protected]
http://members.home.net/detonation2000

[Moonlord]

Hey Frost,
thx for your great post. you really got the point in what you said.
maybe my feelings towards this topic are a bit too sensitive because mainly I was taught to. (its also good b/c i dont think this will happen again, at least in our country).
and you're right many Germans are still ashamed of their past, not all without a reason, but younger people as me (i'm 18) hate it how older generations in our country and also around the world are behaving like stupids when it comes to talk about past, nazis, world war II,...
From all of your posts guys I realised that you are all very progressive in your thoughts and attitude and am quite happy about that *g*.

and we shouldnt forget that history shows us the right way into future --> we learn from faults of the past.

Greets to all of u guys; hope I'll see more great artwork/ discussions in this forum. (but please dont post anymore sungod-signs

[aquamire]

Whoah, where was I when this topic sprouted up.. very interesting reading.

Moonlord, it's good that you see many of the people on this board aren't quite.. dimwitted followers. Everyone here has an opinion about something, and usually has good means to back it up. We can all get along, right?

As for concentration camps, hell, it happened in the United States to. We kept taking land from the natives, and moving them somewheres else.. eventually there was no other place to put them so we setup special 'Americanization' places, which really ended up not being to different from any other concentration camp.. but I hope we've learned from this. Well, I know I have, there's still a lot of racism everywhere you go here, and largely against native americans.




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/Aq
[email protected]

I'd put my wittiest remark here, but I'd scare you.

[SushiMaster]

quote

Quote:

THAT'S what pisses me off. Why do people TODAY have to fuck with everyone and bring back the past and point fingers and make life hell or bitch at anything for things that happened in the past and quite frankly have NOTHING to do with the present.

Let me answer this with an old saying...

"Those who don't know their past are condemned to re-live it."

I don't think what happened during and before world war two should be forgotten. I think it should be remembered, studied, examined so that we can make sure that it never happens again.

And for those who think the second world war was beneficial because it generated a lot of research, and to those who worship the nazis or respect them, I would like to send a big "fuck you". I just hope you and I don't get the incredible chance to go through another "evolution phase" like that, and that we are never faced with such "honourable" people.

Daniel

[Frost]

Sushi:
That's not what I meant. I did say that we should remember our past and to live with it. It is an impportant part of our history, but that's what it is, HISTORY. Why would anyone today hate someone because of something that has nothing to do with you at all, or that other person didn't even take part in? Like some Japanese kid who'd hate an American Kid because of Hiroshima, like some black kid who'd hate a white kid because of slavery, ... if you ask me, there's no room for that. Anyway, that's just my take on it. =)

cheers,
frost.

ed - I hear the words "random musings" echoing in the back of my head... but then again, I never go there, so...

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited September 30, 2000).]

[Rinaldo]

Frost-

"The Nazis pushed mankind's evolution a step - they were responsible for many great inventions and research, led by some of the world's most intelligent researchers and minds of that era. "

I feel like throwing up when people say shit like that.

I know you don't mean it like that and I'm not flaming, but really.....

[SushiMaster]

quote

Quote:

That's not what I meant. I did say that we should remember our past and to live with it. It is an impportant part of our history, but that's what it is, HISTORY. Why would anyone today hate someone because of something that has nothing to do with you at all, or that other person didn't even take part in? Like some Japanese kid who'd hate an American Kid because of Hiroshima, like some black kid who'd hate a white kid because of slavery, ... if you ask me, there's no room for that. Anyway, that's just my take on it. =)

Ok, I can agree with that...

However, about those experiments, do you know what they did? Imagine those good doctors in the concentration camps. They didn't just turn people into soap. Some experimented to see how long you could keep people in cold water until they died... varying the temperature of the water, trying combinations and all... great research! Some investigated how people react to pain, and what causes more pain overall.

The experiments they made were awful. Imagine the worst you can imagine - it's worse than that.

We're not talking about "taught prejudice" here. There are some people (far too many) out there who actually think the nazi were great! And saying how they did a lot of research and invented a lot of stuff ain't gonna help. The nazis weren't the only ones to invent stuff. Everyone invented, because there was a war, and inventing and getting a technological edge was a key to victory. The nazis didn't invent more or less, overall, than the allies. There's been a lot more inventions in the last decade(s), though, fuelled by something other than war (we yet have to see if it is actually better, but so far it's not as immediately destructive). We don't need war to invent.

The problem, as I said, is that there's people, right now, who think the nazis were great models and they should do like them. There's people who think fascism is not altogether bad. There's people who vote for it. There's people who elect governments with fascist components (eg Austria). The last thing those people need to hear is some argument trying to defend fascism as being not so bad after all...

I don't have any bad feeling towards you, or towards anyone here. I'm just trying to convince you, and others, that what you're saying is highly detrimental to all of us, and that you shouldn't say it where it can fall into ears that could misunderstand your point completely...

Sorry for getting all heated up... Forgive me... It's just that, if there's one thing I don't ever want to see happen in my life time, it's that...

Daniel