[dEATH.Tool]

Okay first off I not a 3d animator or modeler! I experimented a bit back in school but my main goal was industrial and graphic design! Anyhow just need a little imput here! I've been fooling around a bit with 3DS and Bryce for the longest so let's cross those off the list and move on!

Okay! Which one out wieghs the other in quality......Lightwave ot Rhino 3d? What are some other good modeling and animation progs? Oh and what the hell is 3d Impact Pro, Extreme 3d, and is Painter 3d any good? Just curious as I have all these at my disposal but no time to waste on bull shit progs!

Help is appreciated!

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.life without fear is the perfect nightmare.

[SMXL2k]

Depends on what you wanna do. 3D Studio Max is probably the best all around tool, it does both hi-poly and lo-poly models, nurbs and a lotta filter effects. It has a good ik system being Character Studio and a great texture base system. Other good programs that i've used are probably Maya and Softimage. I never like bryce or rino3d or anything like that. To limited. Maya is probably the best cinimatics program out there. It has great lighting and beatiful nurbs modeling. Maya needs WindowsNT or 2000 to run. Doesn't support basic linux, 95/98 operating systems. I prefer max, it can do so much that and most companies use it over maya.

[Guy]

Im a big Max user myself. its great for a lot of things, but im learning maya now. i love that program too, nurbs work great in it (even though i dont care for them much) and the poly editing is really good too. lots of game companies are switching to maya now, but Max is still better in some ways. Ill probly end up using both. bones work really good in maya too. i dont really care for bryce or rhino or any of those programs, but thats just me

[eetu]

rhine is more geared towards pure modeling.
maya, max and lightwave seem to be doing best these days, xsi was a bit too late but i guess it'll survive :)

and there are also hash, cinema4d, realsoft3d and numerous other contenders.

try to get a look at as many of them as you can before making your decision.

personally i do everything in lightwave.

eetu.

[dEATH.Tool]

Yeah Bryce does suck....didn't hurt to try it though! I do however already know 3DS's abilities so I'm not really looking for compliments on that! But thanks for your input!

The thing is...my job (character designer) sometimes requires me to sculpt a ref model (not in a 3d program)....but most of the time my main job is just to come up with the character on canvas mediums. So I got the notion that maybe it'd be more fun to try 3d Modeling for a while....I like to try everything anyhow!

A friend of mine (3d modeler) proclaims 3DS as the undisputed modeling champ, while other friends argue Lightwave 6 can do the same! I'm not trying to turn this into a debate....I'm just looking for best quality! I'm not really into persuing animation at the moment....just a good model prog! From what I've seen Rhino sucks....compared to 3DS. If I've seen some Lightwave stuff I just didn't know it....heard X-Men movie used it...dunno! Seen Hash and Realsoft at work, not really what I'm looking for.....which is a pure quality model prog besides 3DS. Is Lightwave it? No?

If anyone has some pics of models they designed in various programs please post them.....I will NOT use them....I just want to compare the results....even tho it depends on the modeler.

As said I am just looking for something to aid 3DS in my venture...since it seems there's other progs that can compare.

Thanks all for you input!

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.we all have fallen victim to the evil which is ourselves.

[Transcendent]

Painter 3d ? Terrible. It's has a wonderful concept ... perhaps only in theory, but the program is hardly feasible. That should be the first program you cross out from the list.

Bryce and 3ds, by the way (which is really ironic, because those are the only programs I work with), are not as bad as they seem ... 3ds has wonderful modeling, but a terrible scanline rendered, and bryce is just vise versa. A little like ying and yan. sorry about the irrelevant ramble there ...

I have never learnt to work in lightwave, it doesn't have the best workflow, in my opinion, the entire separate modeler/renderer concept doesn't excite me too much. It has a stunning raytacer, though, complete with fancy features like radioisty and caustics.

And, oh, a question, since you have all this wonderful (high end, with some exceptions) software at your disposal, why not give all of them a try ? That can't hurt, can it ?

Oh yes, I was reading a bit about how your two friend's debate on which program is better but ... you know what I am about to say ... about art, artist, yabba yabba yabba. BUT 3ds is still better, with one simple benchmark. It costs more. *walks away, laughing diabolically*.

[waylon]

From what I've heard from co-workers who've tried out a number of 3D packages, Maya is by a slight margin the best modeling package... followed closely by Max. I guess it's all personal preference, and whether you're doing high or low poly modeling (We mostly do low-poly here... go figure. Game company.) But if you already know Max, and want to learn something new, Maya would definitely be the way to go.

Incidentally... I think the only reason Lightwave is still around is because it has one of the most high-quality renderers available. Otherwise it's just very convoluted and hard to use.

[BooMSticK]

I just wanted to let my 2cents drop here. I've been using max for several years and nothing could convince me swithing to Maya or even Softimage. Max has GREAT modelling, among the best out there especially for lowpoly, and ok renderer which can be upgraded to betterones for less than $500. There's even a free globalillumination renderer comming out soon from Blur studios. Animating in max is pretty cool too. Plugins and the communitive around Max is very nice. There's alot of support out there on the net with hundreds of free tutorials on modelling, rendering and animation.

Go for max if you can afford it..

,B

[psi burn]

rhino doesnt suck, its just a pure modelling program. people say it sucks because it cant render worth a shit... but i do find it very userfriendly, very helpful, and very powerful when it comes to modelling. if you decide to buy rhino and 3ds for example, i'd suggest modelling in rhino, exporting, importing into 3ds, then rendering the model in 3ds.

[eetu]

sorry i just have to say that modeling as well as rendering are the strong points for lightwave, animation is where it sometimes falls short of maya/max. the lw6 subdivisionsurface modelling simply rules.

but in the end all of them are definitely good enough - you'll be the limiting factor for a long while, not the program ;)

ee.

[surferboi]

k down the list

rhino, is good nurbs modeler but thats all it is

3dsmax, has good poly modeling tools but other apps have better, the rendering is good, animation is somewhat decent, and its got a immense line of plugins

nendo by nichimen is great for poly modeling but thats all it does.. cheap app around 99$

mirai also by nichimen uses nendos modeling and adds a renderer and animation system along with some other stuff but costs more then max does

xsi & softimage good apps with a good background in animation and its got a good render and modeling system ect.. and has good plugin support

maya & studio by alias wavefront great animation system prolly the best imo in maya good nurbs and decent poly tools.. decent renderer allthough some say its a little on the bad side some plugins, studio is more of a engineers prog dunno much about it

lightwave is a good prog with good poly modeling tools and good renderer.. somewhat awkward interface... good plugin & user base as well

theres also hash animation master.. i dunno much about it...
truespace is pretty low end
and theres other 3d apps out there that i didnt mention either

overall i prefer maya, but thats me and depending who you ask ull get a diffrent answere by someone that will swear by that app as the best

[dEATH.Tool]

Thanks everyone for your help and input! I'm narrowing things down a bit now! Maya sounds pretty cool....I can get that one from work. You've also managed to re-kindle my curiousity for 3DS...so I think I'll mess with that a bit! Lightwave sounds like it's worth a try also. Like Transcendent said it wouldn't hurt to fiddle with as many progs as possible....so I'll probably see what others have to offer!

I'm really getting somewhere with this post....and it's helped me a lot hearing views from actual 3D modelers/animators....so keep em coming! Okay in simple words.....All I want is a quality modeling program.....and a rendering prog! 3DS seems to have a bit of both! But I need another....for the experience I guess! I'm not interested in animating....just modeling/render in best quality!

Thaks again!

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.we all have fallen victim to the evil which is ourselves.

[Farwalker]

The 3d program is as only good as the artist using it.



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Gamingvault.com

[waylon]

Just curious... can anyone compare the UVW mapping tools between all these different programs? I've gotten decent at applying UVW coordinates in MAX, but the tools leave a lot to be desired. Is there any program that excels at this?

[Jorge]

zeebit, if you think NURBS are not suitable for quick detailed models, either you have not used NURBS ever or did not have the proper tool (and Alias was supposed to be one on one with Rhino on modeling -depending on who you ask of course-, I guess Maya should have inherited them then). Of course you are not going to get a grasp on how to model your latest futuristic iron just playing 2 minutes with no matter what program, but that is the same for polys, pacthes, or whatever you feel more comfortable with. The only good thing of polys in MAX when the final product is non-low-poly intended is that still you can retain the accuracy of curves. NURBS in Rhino will give you the same realtime performance than polys in MAX (heck, Rhino is actually even faster, I used it on a P133 w/32MB and I at least could make it work, which is a lot to say for MAX), and it is extremely easy and FAST to use. So what do you want polys for? Of course FAST does not mean 2 minutes. I assume you prefered polys because of realtime performance. Since that does not have a real valid base, and Rhino makes NURBS very easy, IMHO polys are an absolute crap for ID concept design.

Farwalker, yes, that is a very useful piece of advice. Geez...

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Jorge

[This message has been edited by Jorge (edited September 09, 2000).]

[surferboi]

death tool... sounds like a tossup between lightwave and max... try their demos' see which interface you take to best..
both dont have all that great of nurbs modeling tho... max's nurbs are horrible but i havent used lightwave too much but many good modelers i know use it

[Vassago]

I use nothing but Lightwave 3D 5.5.
It has a robust set of features and the rendering engine in Lightwave Layout is more powerfull than Max's. It's interface and tools is also a LOT easier to learn that those in MAX. I'm pretty good in Lightwave, but MAX's learning curve is soo steep I get confused as hell everytime I start it up =p

[This message has been edited by Vassago (edited September 09, 2000).]

[Anthony]

I would have to argue that LW's interface isn't at all confusing, if you spend more than 3 minutes with it. Now MAX I consider confusing. Endlessly scrolling menues, etc etc. Maya's excellent. For polygon modeling, it's well known that LW has the best polygonal modeler around, and the best renderer after Renderman. Maya is incredible in the animation dept., and Max is all around solid, if you can stand it, and it's good for games. Mirai I hear good things about, but haven't tried it. XSI...I feel like Maya does it better(well, except the rendering). The reason LW's still around is that from start to finish it's damn fast on anything that's not complex animation(ie; anything like flying logos, company presentations, etc).
Ultimately you can do anything in LW, Max, Maya, or Soft, if you cheat and work around each program's shortcomings. It all depends on what aspect is most important to you. For me it's 1)Polygonal modeling) and 2)render quality. For someone else it might be character animation(Maya), or low poly game texturing and animation(Max).

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-Anthony
Carpe Carpem

[Farwalker]

Jorge it actually is if you dig a little deeper.
Lightwave, 3D Studio Max, Maya, Softimage.

Great programs with certain strengths.

A lot of people starting out get caught up in WHAT is the best 3d package for this, this and this. It takes a good while for the 3d artist to get to the point to be held within the limits of a good mid to higher end 3d program and start looking for something more specific to the work their doing.

Death.tool admitted to be just starting out and had just scratched the surface of a few 3d programs.

Plus everyone else had said a lot of great info about what programs excel in what area.

And yes, the 3d program is just an extension of an adempt 3d artist. Give him about any mid-level 3d program and he can still create inspiring stuff.(once he learns it a bit) Maby not as easy or well as a certain 3d package but...

Death.Tool if you are interested in doing real-time models in the gaming industry. Then Max is your best option by far. Its by far the most used 3d program in the computer gaming industry. Thats all we use where I work. For the low-poly and even for the high-rez cinematics. Start with the basics, get a good book on your program and put tons of hours learning and growing in your 3d skills
Draw also!

Best of luck Death.tool!

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Gamingvault.com

[This message has been edited by Farwalker (edited September 09, 2000).]

[dEATH.Tool]

Farwalker: That's true, but what tell me if I'm wrong here. If you have two artist about the same in talent, one gets Photoshop and the other gets MSPaint....you tell me who'd prolly come off better. I respect your opinion my friend!

Jorge: Rhino is pretty simple to jump into...I'm no expert but I did a little fooling around in it about an hour ago! Made some kinda fat plump chicken type deal!

surferboi, Vassago, and Ant: I decided to get Lightwave from a friend of mine, I installed it and it looks really really confusing...at the moment I'm not ready to just hardcore study it! I'll get some books and see what happens!

Farwalker again: I'm really trying to just intergrate something new into my current job. I love to design the characters and sculpt refs...and thought it'll be a good artistic experience to try modeling them in a 3d prog for awhile. Yeah I'm steal new to 3d stuff and digital also....for the past year at sony all I've done is traditional medium stuff! I already have 3DS installed on one of my secondary drives...so after I learn something new I'll most like work between the two!

I thank all of you for your great input and aid! I really appreciate it....if anyone else has something to add feel free! Thanks

[Farwalker]

I don't know, the next version of MSPaint is supposed to be amazing

I should have explained myself better. I was just comparing between Max, maya, soft and Lightwave as far as comparing what a good 3d artist could do with any of them.

Hehe, whatever Looks like you have a great plan Death.tool and a cool day job also. Look forward to seeing some of your 3d stuff in the future.



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Gamingvault.com

[zeebit]

man.
here i am trying to help and the jorge goes whoopin my ass. oh well. polys work better for me and aren't limited to the topology silliness that nurbs offer. Which is easily defeated with patches, but that takes a little time. and we aren't talking about ID concepts, i only use nurbs for that, not patches, but trims and the round tool.
but for quick character forming i personally think polys and subdivs offer a good solution. Were i to make a character for a motion picture or a short or something that needed to be animated and keep its integrity, i would just make a patched nurbs model from tracing the poly model.But that is just me.

oh yeah, and lightwave's renderer is sweet. if you just want to model and render, that is what i would use. lightwave, or inspire cuz i think it share's LW's renderer

-zeebit

[Pixelator]

What about price/performance? The price difference between the above mention packages is quite substantial.
dEATH.Tool, what is your price range? (or is it not an issue? )

[Farwalker]

Hehe, don't worry zeebit, Jorge didn't like what I wrote either

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Gamingvault.com

[This message has been edited by Farwalker (edited September 09, 2000).]

[dEATH.Tool]

Farwalker: No harm man...I really respect people's opinions....not that yours was offensive or anything.

Pixelator: I got 3DS for $200 from my fiance's brother....go figure! As far Lightwave and so on....I literally get those free! Most of my friends are some kind of artist or another....so say I bought a new prog and he/she buys one....we'll eventually end up sharing it! I can also get a lot of new software from work....luckly!

[Jorge]

Rhino is a GREAT modeling tool for high res, no matter if you go into ID or softer organic-looking models. It is just a modeling tool, though. You'll need something else to animate (and render decently). It's different snap tools are the best I've seen (although have not palyed with big ones like Maya or Soft), even better than any 2d illustration app (beating even Illustrator "wise guides") which will you give you control for the model to look exactly as you previsualized it. It went for free beta 2 years before final shipping and a mailing list was created to support it, so it was tailored down to what users really wanted (I was during those 2 years and believe me they added tons of features and UI tweackings suggested by beta users -which could be anyone downloading it). The bad thing about it is that it does not support construction history yet, which I think is a must, either inside Rhino or in the other program you import the Rhino model. It is a NURBS modeler, althought it has great polygon converting tools. A must for ID. Cool for other people.

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Jorge

[zeebit]

I have done some modeling and stuff.
if you are looking to just throw a model together real quick-like, i think nendo is the way to go. It has sweet poly modeling tools and is real cheap. if you wanna do any more than that, 3dsmax is cool. Personally, i only use maya, and mostly only polys in maya. Tho i am gunna throw some patchmodels together here for my next project. But you don't wanna screw with nurbs for concept design. They are more for a final product. Polys are the way to go for quick detailed models.
but those are just my 2 cents.

-zeebit

[eetu]

comparing the current crop of highend 3d programs is a more like comparing photoshop to painter, not to MSPaint :) a matter of taste and what you're used to.

eetu.

[Danny]

Wow.. there's a lot of old and outdated stereotype observations flying around here.
And why isn't anybody considering the pricing of the packages mentioned here? Certainly that is an important part in the equation that determines what program to use. To take an extreme, I believe a full on Maya license will set you back around $15000 while a program like Hash' Animation Master 2000 will only cost around 200-600$ (if my memory serves me right).
Farwalker made an excellent point. I'm always surprised to see people starting out in 3D reaching for the most expensive package, when cheaper software will suffice.
DeathTool, good luck making a decision, let us know what you'll choose..



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Trust in Trance

[zeebit]

Hey danny, out of curiousity, what stereotypes are you refering to?

-zeebit