[Frost]

Well, I sort of agree one one thing mentioned, and that's the artist's choice. The "she should have blond hair" comment (unless there was a technical reason for suggesting it) can be taken aback in that the person who suggested it wasn't saying helpful at all, if just to question the artist's choice in his expression.

I try to comment as much as possible on the technical aspects of a drawing when I do, and I try to take into account the level of understanding and experience they have. I try to keep comments pertinent to the artist's level of knowledge and understanding -- I beleive in the artist's choice of colors and I try to respect that.

Bah, anyway. =]

[Loki]

Well, Frost - if you put something out in public, you can be sure to get some comments back that are, in your opinion, are made just to question your artwork/bitch/stupid/senseless/etc. - but, why getting all crazy about it? Sure it's upsetting, but oh well ... I usually take a deep breath and and get on with it.
I think this particular person has also been getting comments like this, just because he's been to sure of himself.

But let me point the finger at myself though. When I did my Amiga gfx, I had my nose so high up in the air, that when I'd pick it in the evening, I'd find heaps of 747's in it. I dismissed every comment as not being valid, because (and that's similiar to the stuff posted above) 'how can someone, less talented and gifted, than my godly self, be a judge of my divine pixel-constellations'.
With that you immeadetly disqualify yourself and shut off all the interesting and quite often very helpful stream of input that helps yourself to improve your skills. Swallowing some comments that are not in your liking are really worth it.

Looking back, I think I grew up a little bit. Yet I still have the problem of being too harsh with people I work with. That's the biggest sin - being condescending(?).
I'm working on it though, because it's my duty to change that. I won't give up, but believe me, I'm a tough nut to crack as I've found


[boy - where did all that come from? Is it confession hour at the forum? ]

[immi]

Hehe, thats Petar "der punkt" as he lives and breathes. Actually, ne can come off a little gruff at times, and yeah, he's not the most susceptible person to criticism, but he's actually not that bad.

Once, you get to know him a bit, he's a pretty nice guy, or so I've found.

[ceenda]

so it's not me then? phew...

Loki, no-one is going to criticise you for lacking imagination. Your pics have inspired me on lots of occasions.

Also, bear in mind that people sometimes aren't very good at putting their thoughts into writing. I often get emails from people from other countries with regard to some software I've written criticising it to death. However, I know that it is just the way they say it and not necessarily how they expect the comment to be recieved.

[Loki]

ceenda ... yeah, like it would be you, right ...

anyway ... what you said is exactly my point - take it with a grain of sodium ... even though it's bad for your heart

lack of imagination: well, excuse my french, my ass is wide open in that direction, haha.
All I do is: crashed spaceships, crashed/flying zeppelins in canyons, and castles on rockledges ... but I'm having a hellish good time doing it, hehe ...

Interesting discussion though, eh guys?


oh, and immi: thanks for mentioning his name - that's what I wanted to avoid - oh well



[This message has been edited by Loki (edited August 31, 2000).]

[Frost]

Hey Loki. =)

Nah, I wasn't pointing a finger or anything, but I was somewhat lending an understanding ear to some of the comments made. I should be the first to say that I take critiques harshly, and well, I should really take them better. Everyone's comments count, and as an artist, I think I should be more aware and take more into consideration what is accepted and not in my art, because art, for most professionals, is pleasing others, not yourself.

Anyway, I also often feel I comment too much (heck, look at that whopping number of posts I made to the left!), while I can't really do any better myself.

Slap me. :-/

frost hugs you all. =]

[SaltyDog]

der punkt? I could've sworn it was Fallen..
hehe. But point made nonetheless

------------------
Don't let the *Man* keep ya down.

http://holeinthewall.8k.com

[Loki]

Froster - I totally enjoy reading your comments to any kind of topic, as they are, as we also see here, very thoughtful and wise ... so, give yourself a break or I'll really slap you , haha ...

[ceenda]

Loki, you can give me a slap.

I mis-read your post and didn't realise that most of it was an interview with someone else, so my post looks a bit silly now.

[immi]

[Immi has a fight club moment on himself, and once bloodied and bruised, gets on his knees and utters "I'm sorry I uttered his name...really i am...forgive me Loki..."]

[JayBee]

I think posting anything that you've created takes a degree of bravery, especially in a forum such as this, where anyone with a net connection can rip your work to shreds.

The problem, I think, is that some people (myself included here) think that posting the work is the only bravery needed. Nothing could be further from the truth, as posting work is the easy part. What's hard is listening to other people's opinions.

I think the mature artist (whatever the hell that means) should be able to take any criticism on the chin. If someone says "I think the girl on the left would look better blonde" then that's his opinion, and it's no less valid because it isn't shared by the artist.

IMHO, a lot of artists - and again I'm guilty of this - think that their art is somehow "sacrosanct", and that anyone who disagrees with their vision is being rude or harsh:

As an example, the blonde comment may not contribute much stylistically to my art, but it lets me know what my audience is thinking. That info, no matter how insulting or deriding it might sound, is invaluable to developing technique - for example, I would know that my pic was so dull that the most someone could crit was a character's hair colour :P !

Also (finally - I promise to shut up after this one!), the idea of "respect" that our ex-member here is touting is very dangerous. As a very touchy example, I always enjoy Spooge Demon's posts, and would never dream of critiquing them unless I felt I could back up my position - "The guy's a pro" I think, "he knows what he's doing".

However, the most interesting posts on Spooge's work usually come from the newbies who don't know who he is, and I'll bet those are the crits that help him most. When you're as good as Spooge (or Fred, or like anybody else on this forum who isn't me ) I'm sure it can be easy to get complacent, and if people are too scared of not showing the proper "respect", then nothing is improved.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth.

Feel free to rip me to shreds for generalising so blatently - Spooge, if you read this, I'm sorry for making wild assumptions! Please post and correct me

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. . : : j a y b e e

[Loki]

Haha, Immi ... you can do whatever you want and I'll still love you ...

Just wanted to keep it anonymous, that's why I didn't include the name of the website.

Btw - I think DerPunkt's stuff is great. Too bad he got all pissed and didn't show up here anymore. I'd like to see more. Same goes for Fallen. Oh well, maybe they'll be back one day ...

I'm missing Threnody too, because ... err ... um ... forget this last sentence.

[immi]

oh yeah, Loki, could u post the link to this interview, i'd be interested in checking it out. thanks

[Loki]

totally agree with you, Jaybee ...

[Loki]

immi: http://gfxzone.planet-d.net/

freakin great site - look under article. Guys - I also found interviews with two other mega-talented artists of this forum: Danny & Saffron! Check it out!

[psi burn]

someone mind telling me who this character is? im sure giving his name out wont ruin the rest of his life...

[Anthony]

Jeez, that guy must be a nut. I want everyone to say something about my stuff, good or bad, since you can learn from anyone. But I for one don't suggest things that are a matter of taste. I don't see anything wrong with it-I just wouldn't impose my vision on someone else's style.

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-Anthony
Carpe Carpem

[Binke]

(Sigh).. pixelers

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http://binke.gamesquad.net

[Joachim]

hehe, cool of you to bring this up Loki I liked DerPunkt, for the person he was/is. He was nice when he was in a good mood, and excellent at picking up fights, which made this forum quite entertaining from time to time not that it isn't entertaining now, though.

But, about the the subject, I will write my opinion without caring about if I offend the person who was interviewed. Because, whoever that writes something like that needs a lesson... important words to keep in mind "the less you know, the more knowledge you think you have" (or however that is being said in english).
Saying things like:

quote

Quote:

I meet a lot of ppl who think they are above everyone or at least above the level I consider myself on

, isn't that a contradiction,or atleast very arrogant, to say that ppl think they know more than they do, but I know I know more than most of them. How can he be so sure of which level he himself are on.
Very often an art teacher can have less talent than his/hers students, but still they can have more theory and knowledge.

Argh! Don't people understand that the more you can take in critiscm and not think you are able to do everything, the more you will actually learn. I remember the same thing as you Loki, I was also very arrogant at the time I was in the scene, and I thought what I did was actually difficult, to sit and trace other peoples paintings or photos with no personal interpretation except a silly pixeling technique and color fuckups, which is all the gfx-scene was about (don't know about today, but I guess it hasn't changed that much, since todays demoparties don't care anything about this stuff, as long as there's no scanning artifacts within the image). I am so embarassed about that time, because I didn't know shit, but still I was more arrogant than I have ever been since. This is a veeery typical sign of imatureness and what unessential fame the scene can give you. It's misleading and makes you focus on the wrong things and some get very arrogant and stays that way, as what has happened with this person.

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Joachim's Place

[Danny]

C'mon peeps, let's wrap this up.. it's not nice talking behind someone's back. Let's atleast make DP aware of this thread so that he's able to defend himself if we keep discussing this...

PLUR...



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[email protected]

Trust in Trance

[Loki]

yeah - enough ...

That's why I wanted to keep the thing anonymous ... oh well ... I said I was going to be a bastard - but on the other hand, not attached to a specific person, it's a quite interesting topic, that's why I put it out there in the first place.

So, if we want to talk about it further, it's recommended to speak in general and not keep on railing DP or anyone else in that respect ... mea culpa too ... good call Danny!

[Jorge]

Completely off topic. Since lots of times arrogant people have their reasons to be arrogant (otherwise they would seem stupid, not arrogant) I did a search on posts by the very guy to check out some of his/her works, since Loki said it was cool.

i bounced then into this thread http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001412.html
The girl in the top, it's not made but that guy but whatever. The question is: please do not tell me that is no photo compositing. Where's the painting?

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Jorge

[Jorge]

He, he... Loki, look was this disgusting little asshole newbie found. It is really funny digging through the archives looking for something and finding another thing even funnier. Life's full of prepotent people
http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001419.html

(Hey, just kidding, now do not misunderstand me. Life's funny)

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Jorge

[This message has been edited by Jorge (edited August 31, 2000).]

[Danny]

Hey Jorge,

as I'm the one responsible for that "girl in the top" image I'll answer your query. It is a painting. Just a silly old easy going painting done with reference at the time to familiarize myself with PhotoShop.. You can find some paint inbetweens at my little web directory www.xs4all.nl/~dang
It's nothing fancy.. peanuts really. Loki's most recent Lodge image and Spooge's Obi Wan Self Portrait are much better paintings to look at..
hope that answers your question...


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[email protected]

Trust in Trance

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited August 31, 2000).]

[neutral?]

funny, i was thinking of somebody else...

been so long since i came here, guess things have changed - what happened to Fallen? i really liked his work, and when i left he was beginning to work on a new style.. can anyone fill in the holes here?

and where's karisu (sp?)

Dan

[This message has been edited by neutral? (edited August 31, 2000).]

[Jorge]

(off topic -short-) Hey, Danny. Now that you are reading this. I quote you here

quote

Quote:

perhaps I'll write a How-to-draw-complex-hair tutorial in the future.. There definately seems need for it as this question pops up quite frequently...

You have a particular and beatiful way of painting hair. There are some threads asking for help. How's about that how-to?

[Loki]

Ok, it's time for me to be a bastard again ...
I found this interview on a scene-gfx site. It's an artist that also used to hang out on this forum, and who, IMHO, was always super critical and got toally pissed off, if not everyone looooved his stuff. It's obvious that he was talking about DAF in this interview (which was done in May this year):

[sorry for this politically incorrect posting, but what the heck!]

have a nice one!

What kind of person are you? Quiet type or very open?

I guess if two of us would sit somewhere and drink coffee/beer, you would prolly find me humorous and openminded. But I am actually very quiet (unless someone pisses me off, then I get nasty {I wish it didn't happen that often}).


Does it happen often then?

Yes, bcoz I meet a lot of ppl who think they are above everyone or at least above the level I consider myself on (usually happens on forums). And what I hate the most is when someone who, for instance, is still learning techniques or struggling with shapes and colours, tries to or does insult me by saying my pic is unimaginative, or, the eye should be 2 pixels left, the brow is too short etc. These are such small details, and most of the time, ppl are trying to find an error, they don't look at it as an object that represents something.

I DO accept criticism, and I like it especially when it comes from someone who is not a graphician (those ppl usually look at pictures AS pictures, not as a group of small details), but I think what bothers me most is the lack of respect we have towards each other. I once (when I entered the scene) behaved like that, and now I feel very stupid bcoz of it. Its just the plain respect thing that bothers me. Plus there is something, that I also find of great value, and thats helping someone out by criticising and pointing out the way/technique how to improve or fix something. Without it, I really don't see the point of critique.

Hehe, just recently, when I was releasing a preview of Domina Satanica, among very nice and supportive opinions (helpfull too), there was one that sounded a bit like this: "Yeah, its great, but something is missing.....Why not make the right girls hair blonde." I actually found it very funny bcoz the whole point of the opinion was not to help me improve, but to change it to someone elses idea. And I see that it happens a lot. But, in the end I think what I was just saying is a mere bitching, bcoz I am tense and mostly depressed bcoz of my constant failures with getting a job in the game industry so I display my anger differently. Sorry about that.

[Nex]

my oh my.. who might that be..

And even without prejudice its very easy to find that what he says makes not much sense.

"I do accept criticism" yeah.. right.

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited August 31, 2000).]

[Danny]

Jorge,

I'll definately write that tutorial. Hopefully in the near future. I'm a bit tied up at the moment (don't take this to figuratively! with other things. I wanna push out a decent tut. Not a rushed one.


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[email protected]

Trust in Trance

[vebjorn]

I agree that people with untrained eyes comment on the most weird stuff..or what I call "find the 5 flaws". Although I`ve after working with "the art directors from hell" at the conan publishe, learned to give a flying fuck, and concentrate on the true errors and points. People will always critize your work, no matter how "perfect" it is(poor Boris)

But may people can`t draw very well, but some can still see.

It`s the same as with training, specially martial arts and bodybuilding. Unless the trainer is soso big or has this or that grade, his training methods can`t be better than bigger guy or the higher ranked Black belt over there..etc.

A good critic or teacher does not neccesary have the same level of skill..

But I agree, to many give bad and stupid critics...just to do so.

-Veb