[TheAdmiral]

Hey everyone... as you may have read, I am fairly new here. I have almost no artistic ability as far as a pen and paper goes. But, I have played around with Corel's ground breaking software i.e. Bryce 4.0. But to a limited extent, I do not have the software myself. So on to the question: Does anyone have a better recommendation for environmental 3d art programs? Let me know what you think, thanx.

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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

[dEATH.Tool]

If you don't have any traditional art skill you won't have any in 3D programs. I hate it when people act as if programs are a substitue for pure skill...when it's actually just an extention of the artist themselves. I'm no expert, but I'd recommend mastering the traditional mediums before you chose to tackle 3D. Bryce is basicly a auto program, where you could easily just add items already assembled....others are more hand on. I asked a question something like this...so just search under user name or for 3D program topics.

Sorry if I offended you, I meant no harm to you....just the statement.

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.we all have fallen victim to the evil which is ourselves.

[TheAdmiral]

Hey dEATH.Tool don't worry about offending me... I was a little concerned about it when you began. But I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for your input anyway.

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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

[Nomadik]

I wouldn't consider Bryce to be an art tool.. Its just click and play, you put a pre made mountain here, some grass here, a lake here, a few trees, and finally a sky, and viola you made a world with no real skill at all.. If you want to get into 3D stuff, you may want to try TrueSpace 3D, its a pretty fun modeling program.. Many people suggest 3d Studio Max to be an awesome program.. I think Maya is a new program out there too that is for 3d modeling.. I dont know anything about it though. Hope some of this might help.
-Jesse

[surferboi]

well as far as saying if u dont have any 2d skills u wont have any 3d skills... i think thats not totally true.. its a matter of applying urself imo. but anyways i could talk all night about that crap so ill just answere ur question

the ones i know of
vue d'esprit, world construction set, animatek world builder, bryce, sorry i blanked out... there are many more 3d utils but those arent soley enviromental tools plus there are a bunch of plugins for other 3d apps.. but the ones up top are the ones that came to mind

[samdragon]

Bryce is a great tool for beginners.I strongly recomend it. it's interface is strange and doesn't fit the "big" boys of 3D, but it's great to get a good understanding of 3D space. Don't be fooled by "it's a landscape generator" Myself and a friend have used it for everything but that.
Your artistic ability will come into play as far as what colors you chose, composition, lighting etc etc. With out these basic artistic design skills your images will suffer greatly, 2D or 3D.
So listen to what these people are saying. Don't be tricked into thinking software will turn you into a great artist.
As for what bryce can do..hmmm..
let me see..This is a very old image, but it was created in bryce, the fishys and crab where painting and then placed on to planes.
eeek, this thing is old, but it will serve as an "OK" example of what you can do with bryce instead of land scapes.


just to show you how old it was, I think we created that image when bryce 2 first came out...hehehe

[This message has been edited by samdragon (edited September 13, 2000).]

[Plop]

"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm"

wow, thats pretty interesting

[Rinaldo]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Bryce is all click an' play. I mean it does a lot of the work for you but some of the most important things are left up to the artist. It just takes away a LOT of the hack work involved in creating something. Alowing those"hey I'd like to create a cool landscape" people to do so. They may not have the technique, but they have the vision. Sure it gives samey results but that's not the point.
Anyway I see embarasingly shit stuff done with these sort of apps, along with some totaly amazing stuff. If that's the case then there must be some skill involved. I think it is a good idea for the person who is going into 3D because they can't draw to use something like Bryce becuase it allows them to play aroung with composition and basic stuff without doing all the work involved in a 3D scene. A bit like a sketch or study. The main problem with all these people doing 3D who are basicaly doing it becasue they can't draw is that they don't know about all the basic stuuf that goes with making pictures not related to the actuial act of drawing. The only thing that changes is the medium.
I've heard that you should be able to draw to do good 3D from basicaly every reliable source who has cared to mention the subject. I would hazard a guess that it doesn't have anything to do with the actuial drawing but rather it is a tried and tested method of learning form etc. Learning about anatomy in 3D would be too slow. I can solve a character design problem on paper very quickly. If I tried to do it from skratch in 3D it would take too long to work out what It should look like.
The big problem you're going to have Admiral sir is that you don't know how to make a picture, I would imagine. And it's gonna be a whole lot easier to learn most of that stuff on paper.
But if you insist I've heard that vue d'esprit is better than bryce, although not quite as user friendly (a lot of number driven features that don't give so much real world feedback) Heh I wouldn't know tho, the demo crashed as soon as I opened it . I have seen some fantastic stuff done with bryce tho.

If this sounds harsh then I'd imagine that the reality of it all is going to be harsh. People who have spent lot's o' time working out how to do stuff are very agro about some app that can do it all in two seconds. And although they can rightfully claim that the "instant art" is inferior. the fact stiil remains. The only thing that a computer will not be able to do for a long time is make an original and inspired picture.

[Transcendent]

Hi everypme.

I would like to post a rebutal to all this "political correctness" in this thread. First of all, I'll make a short statement about Bryce ... bryce can be a cut and paste tool. No question about that. But it can also be an amazing tool for 3d. It just takes time to fight the program and overcome bryce's clich�s, Oh, and a sidenote. Bryce is not Corel's groundbreaking program, they simply bought it from metacreations.

Anyway, I'll move on to tackle the real topic, on traditional art and 3d. I object to the notion that "traditional art skills" are essentially necessary before moving into 3d. Yes, it is important to understand color theory, composition, lines of vision ... yabba yabba, (though, allow me to mention, this is mostly intuition with a name) but does a 3d program really "do all this" for you ? Is there really a "Render cool picture" button in bryce, which randomly generates beautiful landscapes and charactors ? (I know terragen does ... but that is out of the point ... lol).

A 3d scene can be much more time consuming than a regular painting. What you might take 2 hours to paint might take 2 days, or even 2 weeks, to do in 3d. But with the price, there comes a reward. The scene can be animated, changed, corrected, modified and so on ... I think the key to good art is not "traditional skills", I think the key is talent and perseverance. Anyone who is willing to spend late nights, forfeit social life, hair, and fresh air can create a beautiful piece of work.

The trouble of "newbie" 3d is that people are simply jumping into the bandwagon, How often have we heard "I liked diablo. I want to create a game just like it" ? They end up nowhere. False ambition, lack of perseverance ... elements of failure in any goal in life. No, they did not need to know painting or sketching. They just needed a push.

[balistic]

If you are seriously wanting to get into 3D, I'd strongly recommend getting Hash's Animation:Master. Its $300 (150$ if you're a student), and will let you do nearly anything. It absolutely excells at character work, and some even manage to do landscapes in it:
http://www.bprince.com/AmericanFlat.jpg



Unlike Bryce however, A:M doesn't do anything /for/ you . . . it gives you some some basic tools and says "go for it." If you have the patience to stick with it, Hash'll take you a lot farther than any dedicated landscape app.

Hash's website is here: http://www.hash.com

The best way to make a mediocre landscape is to buy a tool that just does landscapes.



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Brian "balistic" Prince
3D Artist
Eggington Productions

[Gryn]

Hash's Animation master is a nifty program and cheap too but I find myself struggling with spline modeling too much. My brain just doesn't function like that or something.

You should check out Nendo (www.nichimen.com). It's a pure polygon modeling package with no additional cumbersome features. Very good for getting the basics of modeling and VERY fast. The demo is fully functional aside from exporting (you can save the nendo file). The full program is only around $99.

I've heard that argument before that "if you don't have traditional art skills you will not make it in 3D". I suppose this is true in the sense of color and form but in terms of production some people take on 3D VERY easily and suck at art otherwise. I suppose it all just comes down to what you're comfortable using. I consider myself to be decent with pencil but I fear paint brushes. Good with straight polygon modeling but crappy with splines.

Of course if you're just looking for quick and easy landscapes Bryce is really good for that. I'd probably recommend looking into freeware/shareware landscape generators as well.

[TheAdmiral]

Well thanks for all of the input everyone. I will take it all into consideration. I realize that this may be a sore spot for a lot of you. I realize that I may be seen as some ignorant fall-in-with-the-crowd kind of guy. You all have been working at this your whole lives and may be offended by people who want to jump right into this. I completely understand that and furthermore, I respect that. I see this as my oppurtunity to be a student of this new genre of art. I have had little luck with a pad and pencil, so I turned to the next best thing. Who knows... maybe you think that I am "...jumping on the band wagon." But there is nothing I can do about that. And if my color schemes suck, my perspective is all wrong, and my work just looks awkward, I can always learn, and look forward to some constructive criticism here right?

Anyway, thanks for the big response...


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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

[time_101]

In the end, what ever graphic program you use is basically a more advanced pencil. Some like photoshop require more practice and understanding to use than say Bryce. But in the end, any package can be used to create wonders -- just look around this forum for 2D and traditional stuff. To dismiss programs like Bryce as "click-and-make-pretty-picture" programs is rather ignorant too, because ultimately it's the time and craftsmanship that show through. Afterall, anyone can go into Photoshop and run a few filters across something. It may look cool, but not so much as something painted from scratch with no filters. Likewise, ploping a few default terrains down and some water and a sky in Bryce may look kind of cool for a moment, but no where near as cool as someone who has taken the time to learn the ins, outs, and everything possibly about the program (ala Kano's work at http://www.iconoptix.co.nz/kano/ -- and for those that haven't seen his work, look and see what is possible )

In the end, the "pencil" takes time to learn, and can also be used for stick figures. It's the understanding, time, and effort that makes it art though.

[dEATH.Tool]

Admiral keep your mind on learning....we all can learn from eachother.

Oh yeah all of us haven't been doing this all our lives. I'm just really getting into 3D myself, I've done a little back in school but that doesn't really count for much. Basically my comment was based on only a few aspects. For instance perspective plays a strong role in 3d, as does anatomy, colour theory and lighting. This all counts toward the quality of the piece. True certain aspects of traditional art doesn't even come into play in 3d, but there are many that you'll really need. I come from a strong background of sculpting, clay modeling, painting, and other traditionals, and when I chose to intergrate digital painting and 3d into my work it did give me an added push! I'm still a beginner myself, and I'd be happy to learn aside you and share anything helpful with you that I learn! Just call us classmates or such.

Basicly how I feel about the need for traditional skills is based on my current situation. I am a character designer and when I was first started venturing out as a intern I wasn't judged on the fact that I could sculpt models...I was judge on the fact that I could convey character, emotion and perspective on paper. Now I know why! My understanding of the traditional got me a job at DC/Vertigo which lead to a job at sony! But at only 20yrs (8/2/80) I have still got alot to learn and alot to experiment with, and with that basic knowledge I feel I can do anything since it all comes back to the traditional. So all skills, though all aren't need can help.

And as for saying "Damn I love Theif, Quake, Half-Life or whatever....damn I want to do that"! That isn't a bad thing. All of us have had something that made us want to do things, something that made us dream. Videogames and movies is what pushed me to want to create characters and stories. I don't want to recreate any of it....but I want to bring my stories to life becuase of it.

I wish you LuCk!


[This message has been edited by dEATH.Tool (edited September 13, 2000).]