[kurisu]

I haven't trod the grounds of Sijun in quite some time. I bow my head as I enter this dojo...

"Appaku" (meaning "oppression" in Japanese) is still unfinished!



Below is my original post...

-kurisu
ZAcademy
------------------
Hi all,
The following is a work-in-progress designed to share a creation
progression. I'll post new steps as I complete them. Feel free to ask
questions, make comments, send money...



When done this will represent 'Appaku,' meaning oppression (in Japanese).

To download ZBrush objects used for this piece, visit the
ZTool Store.

-kurisu



[This message has been edited by kurisu (edited September 11, 2000).]

[psi burn]

not much to say about this, but thanks im probably going to get some type of nightmare from this

[Thorn]

Is this what only 2 hours sleep does to someone Kurisu!! .

Seriously, though, I like all the old gold fleshiness. She actually looks soft as well as metallic. Well proportioned. The figure centre of gravity, balance etc. looks solid too. And that's not easy to achieve. Good stuff.

(Speaking of sleep...I think I'm going to shuffle off for a little while. Today is a 'no brain, but lots of pain' day).

[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited June 19, 2000).]

[Joachim]

Really cool Kurisu,
I just can't seem to understand how that zbrush thing works. It really looks like you can rotate that image from different angles.
But, anyway, I really think this picture shows less of that plastic look, which makes me want to try out that program.

------------------
Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[kurisu]

lol Thorn

Thanks for the kind words mi amigos

Hey Joachim - know what the cool thing is? This is the REAL-TIME view! The original is 1000x2000... and this is a crappy .jpg at 400x800... so the detail is much less here - but when it's best rendered (which takes about 20 seconds) it's way better looking - because the materials are calculated properly. Check it out, buddy - I'll walk ya through it - you would make some amazing stuff without lifting a finger, I'm sure! ICQ me at 66395350 if you want
...and another cool thing: The objects I sculpted for this, I've used for many pictures - and they mostly took under 20 minutes each (the heads took 3x more at least)... it's like sculpting real clay.

As far as what ZBrush is...

Pixologic uses this analogy to demonstrate the effectiveness of ZBrush by comparing it to the Hollywood movie making method:
"When a set is being built for a movie, only the parts that would be visible by the camera are created without wasting any time working on areas that would not be visible, and that is exactly the way that you create art in ZBrush... 100% of your time is spent on the parts that you actually see, 0% is wasted. This makes the image creation process far more productive."
But, it also has tons of 3D deformation tools so you can sculpt and texture your objects to use in your image or to save/export. Get a free demo at www.pixologic.com and find out more there...

I started tech support for them a week ago, so if you have any questions, email me at [email protected] and we'll go from there...

Man I want to work more on this pic now (just finished working)... but I have to get up in 5 hours... *bleh* Maybe I'll have nightmares like psi burn

-kurisu

[kurisu]

And one more thing - about the Materials in ZBrush...
There are about 20-30 unique materials, ranging from wood, chrome, metal, bumpy metal, intensity maps, reflective maps, reptilian skin, jelly bean, gradient maps and more... and they are all customizeable, so you can get any look you want by editing specular/diffuse/ambient/transparency/metallicity... and then there are the real-time lights... oh man! The list goes on, but suffice to say that it's painting like never before!
I tend to spend less time on the Materials in my images - but have done better in the last couple of images. If you spend time, you can do whatever you want! And it's very fun.
BTW, Immi - don't you have something to announce somewhere sometime soon...???????
Anyways, nobody's reading this so I'll go hide in the toilet now...

-k (razy lunatic)

[pst]

This sounds like a commercial.. :P

------------------
pSt [email protected]

[Spitfire]

Ehm.

Eep.

*hides*

[kurisu]

pst - DOH! lol, I know, I can't help it though. I've spent a lot of time learning what, from the beginning, proved to be fun and rewarding... so my heart is in it - that's for sure. So I think I exhale sales pitches... or burp them... or something...

What I say I believe, and there's no donkey meat in it, just truth

*wacks Spitfire with a wet ZBrush*

lol

I'm goin' ta bed now... zzzzzzzz

(what's up Spit?! )

[Frost]

ZBrush... (sigh)

[kurisu]

Oh man I have ta catch some Z's... lol - I can't help it

Why the sigh, Frosty?

Okay - now I'm goin' ta bed!!!

[pst]

I tried ZBrush for like 5 minutes, and I thought it was slow as hell. But that might have something to do with my hardware. It's probably cool when you know how to handle it. Now go to bed Kurisu.

------------------
pSt [email protected]

[Cos]

Cool stuff Kurisu! really cool idea too. Looks like my kinda woman, who needs arms anyway?? ;D Yeah I tried zbrush out a bit ages ago but damn it was kinda baffling. I did make some huge metalic turds growing
grass tho, but erm yeah, maybe when I get my
new comp I try it again.

I'm curious to what it is now. Immi make your announcement u fooker!..or is that hooker? hmmm, its probably both =)

[Frost]

Kurisu: =))) It's a nice pic, don't get me wrong. But ZBrush... I wrote a bit about it in a thread some month or 2 ago... I'm too old and can't get used to this new technology of tools... pretty soon you'll be able to paint entire 3d-scenes with a octree/voxel type paint program and have all the lighting done for you and all that... like I said... I'm just a stubborn old fool. Now where's my wheelchair! Nurse!!!
=]

"...and that is exactly the way that you create art in ZBrush... 100% of your time is spent on the parts that you actually see, 0% is wasted. This makes the image creation process far more productive." - (sigh), yes, I suppose it is slightly better than a regular matte painting in that you could probably change materials and the lighting after the matte is complete.

paint shop pro + zbuffer = zbrush. nothing to it.

You know, it's possible (somewhere down the road when someone thinks about doing it) to convert this zbrush info into a 3D file format (extrpolating vector info from the zbuffer bitmap) where you could import your zbrush creations (planar mapped with the texture of your image), sort of as a 3d mesh drafting tool. Anyway. Blah.

NURSE!! Where's my damn wheelchair! I gotta go to the... (*oh damn*)... never mind.


Immi: I agree with Cos -- the 3DP contest results would definately be nice. Also, is there ranking beyond the first 3? It would make us all feel a little better to see that these images were at least looked at and judged...

[Kyri]

Kurisu, great image! I really like the form
on the woman, very curvy ;P It reminds me a bit of the robotic minotaur in Sinbad and the eye of the tiger..I think that's the movie anyway.
I gave zbrush a try a while back and was crap at it. But it was fun to try it.

[Nex]

Konban wa kurisu-san!

Nice one up there... got your own loveslave there huh?

Although she seems to really have a hard shell..

If you modeled this in 3d.. then hats off to you!! If you did not.. then heads off to you

Cya around

Sayonara



------------------
- Nex

http://on.to/nex

[Pixelator]

Frost, if I read your post correctly (and I hope I did not) then are you saying that any artist - who is using an advanced tool that �does a lot for you� (such as Max, Maya�) � Can�t be considered a �true artist�???
Where does it say that Art is equals Perspiration? I would think that most people would agree that Art is mostly an inspiration with a fraction of perspiration, and thanks to the help offered by advanced tools, I have to use less of the above-mentioned �perspiration� which leaves me with more �inspiration� time. (Reducing my expenditures on deodorant products is just an added bonus )

I have seen your art and posts before and I regard you as a fine artist. I do believe that you have not meant to �2nd class� all the 3D artists out there and that your post is simply a reflection of your frustration with your lazy NURSE who should have �done a lot for you� but isn�t.

And to your comment that�
> paint shop pro + zbuffer = zbrush. nothing to it.

If I take this logic further then I would arrive at the conclusion that�

Chicken breast + bread = Chicken sandwich.

I am sure you�ll agree that eating a piece of chicken followed by a slice of bread is nothing like eating a chicken sandwich

Frost, this is by no means an attack directed at you, but rather an attempt to voice my opinion in hopes of illuminating unavoidable �blind spots� that people share, and maybe, by doing so, help reduce such pre-conceived assumptions about the artist behind the tool.
It is we� the artists � who strive to shine thru the tools that we � the artists � have chosen, and I can�t think of a better example then Kurisu�s "Appaku" image (shown above), which clearly demonstrates Kurisu�s talent and ample inspiration.

Frost, please forgive my outburst, but I am having similar problems with my NURSE and I felt that by sharing this with you, I might alleviate some of our the common pain

Pixelator



[This message has been edited by Pixelator (edited June 20, 2000).]

[kos.mandis]

Hey, I've got one too!
B+S=Bs!

(don't take me seriously, I haven't checked the program yet )

[Frost]

Pixelator - First let me just smile ... I am in no way offended or such, but in fact, I do regret what I wrote, but it is somewhat how I feel. For instance, I do 3d modeling, and I understand how important it is to have new tools to help with the development of projects in a timely manner... I just feel that somewhere, people that are exposed to such tools are missing out on certain basics... but, that's just my personal oppinion, based on my personal objectives i guess.

I felt the same about photoshop back in 96 when it came out. I was doing images pixel by pixel, creating my own color palettes, making my own antialiasing pixel by pixel -- all this to me was the way to do it, I understood how it worked... when photoshop came around, it did antialising on its own, it did transparency without you having to calculate and estimate RGB values and finding a suitable color in your palette for the need... so much ground knowledge seemed to be all of a sudden taken for granted, and yes, today, no one knows how to do all that manually.

With Zbrush, you keep piling up depth information for your pixels on which you can apply lighting at will -- it comes to a point where you don't even need to know how to shade objects anymore... a few years from now when such programs are the standard, all the new blood of digital art will know nothing of shading, no concept of how light impacts a surface, creates shadow, etc., and maybe a few years from now, antialiasing will be something known only to applications programmers to take into account. Maybe that's not a bad thing... and is just proper evolution.

I really don't mean to bash people who are using Zbrush, because I've seen some very nice images done in zbrush lately, including yours. =) It definitely leaves more time to the design of the image, and less worries on the technicalities of it... which is where the problem lies with me, being a technical freak I suppose, wanting to understand how and why light works that way, etc.

So, in overview, 99% of the chances are I'm wrong to think this way, and that programs will keep progressing towards being less technical, and more user-friendly, like clipart cut&paste, etc. Like I said, I'm just an old geaser who has his head in a jar - I know this - but I'm not ready to change to it just yet -- not until I am confortable with my knowledge and understanding or the reality of things the underlie the cute technology.

And no, I am not insulting anyone here, or at least, I hope. But I think some things are sacred in art. If I had an image in my mind I wanted to portrait, chances are, I would not use 3DSMax or such to make the image, but more of a tool that would permit me to go in and define my image in my way every step of the way... I'm just like that... (for now.=) )

Cheers -- and great images. =)
frost.

(I need sleep - I hope I didn't mess up or insult anyone above with the way I explained myself).

[Thorn]

Kurisu...just had a thought. Why don't you put together a basic tutorial on Z-and put it on Zapman's ArtCamp site. It might help demystify the program. I haven't seen much around on the topic, and you're knowledge would be invaluable. (Might look nice on the CV too. It all helps, ).

I hope that this doesn't sound demanding or put you on the spot or anything. I'm more just thinking out loud, after reading the posts. (I, too, have produced my share of irridescent poo poo).


[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited June 21, 2000).]

[kurisu]

This email is directed towards topics, not individuals...

I think there are two parts to art:

The "creation" and the "appreciation."

- Effort behind the creation benefits the creator.
"It took me 98 hours to make this - and I had to walk barefoot, in the snow, uphill, both ways" - your boss doesn't care and replies, "That's nice but you were alotted 4 hours - now get back to work!"

- Quality of the creation benefits the audience appreciating it.

Having said that: Who cares how it was done?!

Let's pretend I show an artist's picture of a lake with a mountain reflected in it. I show it to my Mom and say, "this artist used only 1 filter, no undo, and did it at twice the speed..." she stares blankly at me. She doesn't know what all that means. She doesn't care! She just knows that she likes the picture. She appreciates the "pretty" reflection in the water. I don't tell her that the artist rendered it with a computer and that the computer did calculations. The point is that the artist produced a picture that she found pleasing.

In most cases, "learning basics" is important to make money. Otherwise, nobody would appreciate "Abstract" art, right? I mean, how often do anatomy and perspective come into play with a picture that has lumps of color all over the place? Take fine foods, for example - sure there are recipes for great dishes - but just because one culture likes monkey brains doesn't mean another will. The effectiveness of any rule, in this case, is subjective.

A traditional painter mixes real paint. He or she can run out of paint. The paints can dry. Mistakes might be made requiring over-painting, rubbing or scraping off. He or she must purchase supplies (paints, canvas, etc.) Planning is key. Toxic fumes.

A digital painter mixes unlimited amounts of color. No mess. Once bought, he/she can paint forever without buying anything new. Many, many tools are available that do not exist outside the computer. Such as modifying the image - hue/saturation/contrast/brightness/noise/blur/dodge/burn/etc... at any time in the creation process. And what about UNDO?! Can't do that one in traditional painting!

Now... because of all the benefits that digital painting provide a digital artist - does it make him or her any less of an "artist" because he/she has special tools that the computer provides, making some things faster and easier? I don't think so.

My honest opinion about putting down something because of the tool used shows insecurity. It shows the person reacting is threatened. This is natural, but I think it's important to recognize.

I don't have a problem with methods of creation except if someone blatantly copies something... and then claims ownership without giving credit to the original creator. I think we copy from everything we see and experience - but I applaud those who can copy from many different sources, mix it together and present it - rather than blatantly copying from one thing. Practicing by copying is fine - but there comes a point at which applying the principles overshadows any benefits that constant duplication provides - in my opinion.

-kurisu

PS: Frost I see your points. Pixelator I see yours too.

[kurisu]

pst - Well, I *did* go to bed, if not for 5 hours. What's your software of choice, by the way?

Cos - LOL (as always) ...and thanks Those chrome turds must've been painful!

Frost - I come from the same background, actually - 16 colors needed to look like 16 million. Anti-aliasing... sprites... DPaint palettes... I did a lot of that for years. Was the same for me when Photoshop came around. It was hard for me to adapt... I was so used to controlling every aspect of what I created in each image or animation. I had a hard time letting go of that control. I disagree, though, that this knowledge has no use. What I learned were thought-processes and ways of approaching and executing graphics... these concepts won't be lost, only "handed down" as I learn new tools and ways of expressing myself. I don't think this is something to fear - it is evolution, as you mentioned.
Same goes for 3D. There wasn't "IK" and motion curves... I had rocks! And I LIKED it that way! Seriously, though, I learned to model polygons like nobody's business. I learned to texture-map those low polygon characters/vehicles/bg's/etc with those efficient 2D graphics mentioned above. When Softimage became popular - and 3D Studio, and others started becoming popular, I thought "Sheesh - you mean I can plant my characters on the ground, move the body around - and the feet will stay planted?!" I was excited... but then the splines and nurbs scared me. I thought - does this just negate the importance of all that stuff I learned before? I learned that the answer was a big, fat NO!
Just look at the internet. Sure, Flash/Shockwave/etc are allowing for more, but when you get right down to it, the internet is still a very primitive vehicle for artistic expression. It requires an understanding of efficiency. I was so happy to learn all that stuff before - because I just applied the exact same principles to NOW! Funny that... but I think it's what will always happen. Things change, but never disappear entirely.

Kyri - Thanks buddy! Oh man "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" is AWESOME! I love those skeletons and monsters - I remember that even as a kid... ahhh the memories...

Nex - Ohayougozaimasu nakayoshii! Loooveslave - yeah, Loooveslave... oh man, bad Bangles rip-off. I modeled each part separately (SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED!) and then loaded each, positioned/rotated/scaled and then modified a bit before snapshotting them into each position. Ja matta ne...

Pixelator - Smelly armpits + Soap = Shower. Did I follow the pattern correctly???

kos.mandis - LOL!!! Classic!

Frost - I wasn't offended by anything said

Thorn - Hey that's a thought! Now... if I could only find 24 more hours in a day Seriously, though, I have been trying to finish my ZRacer movie tutorial... maybe just a quickie (that's what she said)...
poo poo... heh heh! (seriously, though, it's a great idea... Zapman???)

synj - Speaking of poo poo... Where you be?!

-kurisu

[pst]

Kurisu: I'm still looking for my favourite software. A couple of years ago I was addicted to 3D Studio MAX, but now I hardly use it anymore. For the last year I've been using Photoshop, and I must say that PS is the my favourite at the moment. I recently tried DeepPaint3d, and I loved all the brushes, but still it missed something. So now I want to try Painter, since I've heard that it's supposed to be a great app with good brushes. I've also mentioned that I've tried Zbrush, but I think it was really slow.
My main problem however is my tablet, it's called Genius EasyPainter and has no pressure sensitivity. That makes my work alot harder. So if anyone know where to buy a Wacom tablet in Norway, drop me a mail.

------------------
pSt [email protected]

[Frost]

Kurisu: You're right. I am being protective of my own territory. As I said many times before, maybe I'm not an "artist" at heart in the purest sense, and I don't personally share some of the artistic values some may have, and, that is fine, I hope. I want to better myself, my images, and my understanding...

..

(sigh) -- I really don't mean to discredit zbrush images, or artists that use it. But I hope people understand the difference in requirements between using it and not using it.

All images can be compared on a design or artistic level. Not all images can be compared by technical-merit. There's nothing wrong with doing things whichever way you choose, but the methods should be understood.

I've been in competitions where people have been ranked above me for using more advanced software, doing images in less time and technically better looking, because many (sometimes judges) don't understand the underlying tech merit... I guess this is where I picked up my 'pickyness' on this subject. I'm just an old man with bitter memories, that's all.

I'm sorry. Zbrush is a good tool, revolutionary in a way, and it's a good idea to invest time into it, as it is a good tool for what it does. I'll get to it myself eventually, as soon as I get over my little old man's "Ah, kids these days" attitude. =)

Fuck me. =)

cheers.
frost.

[synj]

kurisu i'm right here! i am sitting on a poo



eheh

-synj www.synj.net

[kurisu]

pst - I know what you mean about finding "the one" (and not just with apps!). Good luck in your search for artistic freedom with it! BTW - do you have a PII? And what RAM? Man - no pressure sensitivity?! Somebody get this man a real wacom!

Frost - Hey buddy You don't need to defend yourself, nor deprecate yourself! I hear ya and understand what you're saying... Just try to have more faith in yourself, because you make GREAT stuff! I think if you can learn to accept that you are truly talented - yet make mistakes - just like everyone - even your idols - that winning contests may have been important - but what really floats your turds is that you just enjoy what you are doing and know that there are those who appreciate it. Your comments obviously spur reaction in me, and a lot of what I'm saying has to do with people I've met anytime in my life (and applies to me too!).

Struggling to be the best at something is another topic I'd like to address (applies to nobody in particular)... I feel that everyone should try to find enjoyment in the doing... not in getting a trophy... not in that everybody says "hey you're neat and i want to lick your toe"... just the journey. Because I think life is the journey, and a destination like "being the best" will never happen. Always somebody more skilled or less skilled at something... so why bother? Just be happy, say, to create the art, and see improvement in yourself (and sure praise and acknowledgement is really important - but the most weight, I think, should come from within).

Wow, you really draw a lot out of me, Frost

synj - HURRAY! *dances around slowly losing consciousness because of the poo fumes* LOL - great anim as always!

Man, I have to work more on this pic - as well as finishing the Grork (?) pic for Kyri's thread (I haven't forgotten or lost interest man!). Just too little time %$#@@!

-k

[Thorn]

Yes, just a quickie, Kurisu. just a quickie. I was thinking of something that can point people in the right direction, or alert them to key features in the program, ala, web monkey style.

But if you do, definitely don't put it together as a tutorial + homework component WITH FEEDBACK, no, no, no. You'll have no life, lots of grateful students, but no life. (Fred's probably having some deep intense feelings along those lines right now. I read some of his posts, and think 'that man sounds VERY tired').

[pst]

Kurisu: No, I have an AMD K6-2 350 with 64 ram. And yeah, my tablet sucks. I'm still looking for a place to buy a Wacom... Until then I just have to use my old tablet(with no pressure sensitivity).. It's better than using an ordinary mouse!

[Thorn]

PST, I don't if this will help, but when I went looking for a tablet all the PC/windows type places just look at me like I had 3 heads(the troglodytes). So I asked an Apple dealer, and whalla! I had a Wacom tablet for PC with a USB connection one week later. I don't the situation in Norway, but you never know...

[Fred Flick Stone]

Kurisu, or anyone else knowledged in this. Is the demo version of ZBrush very different than the purchaseable version? I just finished downloading it and wanna try it out tonight...How do you like the program vs. photoshop? It is very different I know but, what do you see as advantageous about it? etc. I am new to this program, but it looks quite fun...thanks for your input...