[Chapel]

Ragnarok:

A. I'm 25 (by the way you are not of legal age to vote in the US)
B. I haven't been to any European countries, but also on that note I have made no statements about the politics in your countries either.
C. Snookrod has provided all the facts for our statements since we are stating the same points.

[Snookrod]

Here we go again.
I am done commenting on Gore's inability to lead and overall lack of respect for our institutions until someone can provide a solid argument backed with some form of substance or factual foundation.

Same goes with those wanting to tote the gun control argument.

Bush won. Thank god.

[Cooter]

All right my first post here, and sad to say it had to be in this thread. Not a Republican, not a Democrat... just kinda there, vote for the best candidate whichever party.

But here are the two reasons why I voted for Bush. And why I hope he wins, and we never hear from Gore Lieberman ever, ever, ever again.

1) Al Gore's spouse started the PMRC. She believes that government should limit what artists, game producers, television, movies and various other "media people" can produce, let alone distribute to the populace. In 1988, Al ran for the Democrat presidential nomination. As his campaign kicked off, she released a book, "Raising PG Kids in an X-Rated Society", a move many saw as a ploy for the Gores to win over the right wing of the Democrat Party. However, Tipper would change her tune during the campaign. In an October 1987 meeting between the Gores and entertainment luminaries, she claimed the Senate rock hearings were a "mistake." Albert Gore Jr. claimed he "was not in favor of the hearing" when in reality he was on record thanking the Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation chairman for holding the hearing.

What Gore said to the media.

"�I did not ask for the hearing,� Gore told the Hollywood group. �I was not in favor of the hearing.�" (Daily Variety, 11/3/87)

What Gore said to the Committee;

"Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank you and commend you for calling this hearing. Because my wife has been heavily involved in the evolution of this issue, I have gained quite a bit of familiarity with it, and I have really gained an education in what is involved."

Although lately it seems as though Tipper Gore has scaled back her fight against explicit rock music in an attempt to pander to the left wing of the Democrat Party. But the scary part is that on the same ticket this year you have...

2) Sen. Joseph Lieberman.

Or Mr. Censor as he is known in some circles. Started the "Silver Sewer Award" given to those in TV and film who provide an "outrageous contribution to the degradation and coarsening of our culture." The Silver Sewer awards have gone to CBS for endorsing Howard Stern and showing Dr. Jack Kevorkian on "60 Minutes," and to Fox in its entirety. The award's targets include all those people who want to be targets � Jerry Springer, Marilyn Manson, Stern � people who are provoking for a reaction. These are "cultural polluters" according to Lieberman. Lieberman has gone as far as to say that if the contitution allowed it he would have no qualms in banning certain materiels. Marilyn Manson, whom he blamed for Columbine, and called "vile, hateful, and nihilistic". Cannibal Corpse, calling them "vile and hateful". The television show "When Animals Attack" for turning terror into entertainment. Certain video games.

"This is not an attack on Hollywood. It is an appeal to Hollywood to work with us as a national community in a joint effort to reduce the corrosive messages the media too often send to kids."

And yet, that never stopped Lieberman from going on the Don Imus show to tout the Silver Sewer awards. Draw your own conclusions.

In giving the award to Fox, Lieberman singled out two shows: "Action" and "Get Real." Admitting later he had never actually seen the allegedly offensive shows. Worse, Lieberman said that when he finally saw "Action" he laughed.

It's easy to dish out blame. It's hard to take it.

[Chapel]

That is only just barely touching on Lieberman. His whole stand on video games is ridiculous in my opinion. He also changed his stance when Daily Radar interviewed him which I thought was pretty funny. all of a sudden he considers himself a video gamer. Funny how he dislikes the content of games like Quake 3 and S.O.F., but he enjoys playing games like Ages of Empires. I'm sorry but isn't that just mass slaughtering in AOE? Maybe he just likes to play God. (By the way, if Gore HAD won you probably would have seen a major change in the content of the art posted in the Digital Art forum.)

[Ragnarok]

Sorry if my post was a bit agressive, I dind't intended that way...
I agree with you about criticism.
About your political likes, I disagree, but that's normal because I live in another culture, don't I?
I have no facts to back my thoughts, that's why they are only thoughts flying on the mind's wings... and they may fall down anytime.

[Count Zero]

Whatever.
Personally, I wouldn't have voted for either of 'em, because of the reasons listed above.
I just hope America gets it shit together, and someday soon manages to establish a system of government that provides for all the people, not just the rich and a system that provides the people with a right to live, above a right to carry a gun...
Good luck.

[Striker]

The system does provide for all people, the US has one of the highest Standards of living in the world.. The opportunity for anyone to become wealthy is a big reason why our economy is doing so well. Why should someone be penalized for success?

I also hope America produces a system that provides people with the right to live. But probably for a different reason than you. I don't see why people get so bent out of shape when someone who has forfeited his rights by murdering people, is held accountable for his actions and put to death. And yet, don't even feel the slightest twinge of sorrow when an innocent babies' body is utterly mutilated in ways that rival the most attrocious slaughtering and torture that any war has ever produced.

[This message has been edited by Striker (edited November 28, 2000).]

[elam]

This discussion is about our presidential choices, no?

I pose this question:

Do you truly admire any of the candidates? Has any of them known suffering or sacrifice or had to work hard for anything in their life? With the exception of Nader, I believe not. Gore and Bush are men of privilege, and from my experience, you don't learn anything from that. How can either man relate to the poor and disenfranchised with which America seems so populated? Are either of them truly innovative thinkers, with exciting, novel ideas? In my opinion, no. They are a product of a stagnant, childish political system. These discussions so often degenerate into personal attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the serious issues that face our country. What about political reform, the war on drugs, disparity between the rich and poor in a time of great prosperity? These important issues get thrown to the wayside and politicians pander to the overwhelmingly ignorant American public.
This is why I voted for Nader. I don't necessarily agree with everything the Green Party says, but I truly admire Nader. I despise the other two. I believe he cares about the future of this country above all else.
And I also must say that I truly love America. I couldn't live without The Blues, Jazz, Rap, Computers, The Internet, Rollerblades, Football(American style), the slam dunk or the many other things that America has innovated. But I dislike America's culture of violence, it's history and consequent continuation of institutionalized racism, and the general apathy of the American public. IMO, America's on the downslope, has been for a while. The manifestation of this is what we are witnessing now. Two completely incompentent candidates sueing their way into the most powerful position in the world. America is in need of change. Hopefully, this election farce will be the stimulus to greater public involvment in American political life.

So again I pose the question: Do any of you truly admire the candidates?

Elam

[Ragnarok]

Elam, I don't really know how your democratic system works, but here the president isn't the one that rules everything and makes all the work, there are a lot of people behind them working hard. So, what I would ask is, why admire them? as long as they defend your ideas and have proposed some good ways of making them reality.

[Snookrod]

I most definately admire George Bush. And I will not look down upon anyone who has had a better life than I. I aim to give my children a better life than I have had. That is whole point of being American and living in a capitalistic society. If you want to work your ass off and get ahead...you can.

The only reason one could have for not admiring Bush is his arrest for drunk driving. Extremely bad decision he made.

However, look at his accomplishments.
1) Graduating from Yale
2) Graduating from Harvard
3) Pilot in the military
4) General Manager of the Texas Rangers
5) CEO of (2) billion dollar oil companies
6) Governor of Texas (twice)
7) President of the United States
8) but above all he is a real American

[This message has been edited by Snookrod (edited November 28, 2000).]

[Chris]

quote

Quote:

Elam, I don't really know how your democratic system works, but here the president isn't the one that rules everything and makes all the work, there are a lot of people behind them working hard

Here too.

[elam]

Yo Snook,

"That is whole point of being American and living in a capitalistic society. If you want to work your ass off and get ahead...you can."

I agree, but my point is, George Bush hasn't worked hard for anything, ever! Unless you count deciding to turn sober at age 40.

Both Bush and Gore were below average students.

They got into these Ivy League schools because of their names and money. And they both performed poorly.

George Bush was a pilot in the National Guard. He skipped Vietnam, again, because of his name.

General Manager of a losing baseball team, that he bought with his dad's money. That is an accomplishment?

CEO of companies that are friends of or bought by his dad. I got news for you, it ain't hard to make money in the oil business.

Govenor of a state that holds the title of most polluted city(Houston) in the nation, and ranks near the bottom in every environmental category.

George Bush is very average. Is this what you mean by 'a real' American?

I think everyone wants to give their child a better life. And role models are important. But, I don't see how you can use GW as an example. His dad, yes. But not his dullard, boob of a son.

"So, what I would ask is, why admire them? as long as they defend your ideas and have proposed some good ways of making them reality."

Ragnarok, I agree with you. I'm not saying you have to admire them, it's just a question.
Do you look up to and respect these people? I'm curious as to why someone would vote for GW, because to me, it's blatantly obvious that he sucks. Al too.

I just wish they would quit their childish lawsuits and get on with the business of running the country. My stocks are dropping.

elam

[Count Zero]

As I said; whatever. It's your country, run it the way you see fit... Just as long as you keep it on that side of the Atlantic, and don't decide to "liberate" us ignorant Europeans from our plight.

[Striker]

"Just as long as you keep it on that side of the Atlantic, and don't decide to "liberate" us ignorant Europeans from our plight."

On this, I agree.. The US oversteps its bounds all too often, and tries to assert *its* beliefs on other countries.

[Ragnarok]

I can't vote, but I wouldn't vote neither Bush nor Gore. I'm more left winged than any of them. Bring up a good sanitary (health and those, I dunno if this is the right word) system for everybody!!

-Ragnarok

[Spitfire]

You have to ask yourself...

Does the president support what i stand for, or do i support what the President stands for?

[Snookrod]

Elan,
Bush graduated from two of the top 4 four schools in the USA. Daddy got him the grades too right? And what proof do you have that he got in because his dad was CIA director (or whatever post he held at the time)? You are just repeating propoganda.
Let me guess...just anyone with a powerful father can fly a fighter jet right? No...dumb asses with powerful fathers get deskjobs as pencil pushers. He was a F-102 pilot.
Now to your baseball comment...he was a general partner (owned some of it). He did not manage the team. And yes he did turn the team profitable.
Your oil industry quote "I got news for you, it ain't hard to make money in the oil business."
Okay then why aren't you doing it? Again your comments are baseless. You are missing the point that George Bush has developed massive amounts of leadership and coalitions. His father may have given him good opportunities, I don't argue that, but he made the most of them and is trying to give the rest of us that chance.
He knows how to work with people regardless of their political positions.

I agree that Houston is one of the biggest polluters in the US. Big deal! It also produces the most refined oil, which you enjoy. It is also one of the biggest cities in the US. The facts are that George Bush inherited this problem from Ann Richards and George Bush has reduced pollution in Texas at a rate more than triple any other metropolitan area.

BTW: Al Gore had to drop out of Vanderbilt.

[This message has been edited by Snookrod (edited November 29, 2000).]

[Snookrod]

--Let's look at Bush's record--

EDUCATION
Increased the minimum salary for teachers by an average $8,232 per year and expanded after school programs for middle school children in high-risk areas.

Reading performance in Texas has improved: 88 percent of the third grade students passed the reading portion of the state assessment test in 1999 � up from 76 percent in 1994.

Minority students have made strong gains: African-American students in both the eighth and fourth grade increased their passing rate on the reading exam by 23 points between 1994 and 1999. Hispanic eighth grade students posted a 40-point gain on the math exam during the same time period.

TAXES AND BUDGET
Advocated and signed the largest two tax cuts in Texas history totaling over $3 billion. Includes: $2.38 billion in school property tax cuts; $345 million in consumer sales tax cuts; and $464 million in business tax cuts to spur economic growth.

Cut the growth of state spending to its lowest rate in 40 years. Since 1994-95, when adjusted for inflation and population, state spending will only increase 3.6 percent by the end of the 2000-01 biennium.

CRIME
Effectively abolished parole for violent offenders. Violent offenders are serving more than 90 percent of their sentences while violent sex offenders are serving 100 percent of their sentences.

During the Bush Administration, the overall crime rate decreased 13 percent and the violent crime rate decreased 20 percent.

The violent juvenile crime rate decreased 38 percent and the overall juvenile crime rate fell by 7 percent � the first decline in more than a decade.

WELFARE
Reduced the welfare rolls by more than 375,000 � a 51% decrease � by requiring work, limiting how long people can stay on welfare, and involving faith-based institutions in the compassionate delivery of social services.

Established group homes, run by faith-based institutions, for unwed teenage mothers and aggressively implemented the Charitable Choice provision of the federal welfare reform bill and used federal funds for successful abstinence education programs in Texas.

Strict partisans who are blind to the truth just cannot accept that George Bush is a good man and cares about people. He has been a wildly popular Governor and will do a fine job as President.

[FaithInChaos]

people keep posting "bush won"
but the fact is as i am posting this response no one has won the election as of yet.

the election is not over and will not be over for probably a couple more weeks...
please stop spreading misinformation

[Chapel]

Yeah... its not 3 out of 5.. I think it supposed to be best of 7 like the NBA Championship. So, there is still some hope for Gore.

[elam]

"I agree that Houston is one of the biggest polluters in the US. Big deal!"

Humorous. You justify all your points with statistics, then shrug off ones that are indefensable. If you feel like polluting and destroying the planet, which we need for our survival by the way, for the sake of profit and greed is admirable or no 'big deal', then you are beyond a reasonable political discussion.

"Okay then why aren't you doing it? Again your comments are baseless."
How do you know I'm not? I also don't drive a car, so I don't use refined oil. You assume too much.

I was born and raised in Texas. My Grandfather has a rusting oil derrick sitting on his property. He made decent money and didn't do a damn thing. So you see, my comments are not baseless.

GW also used the intrusive powers of the Texas government, including raising taxes and condeming local land for the construction of the Texas Rangers new stadium. http://www.texasobserver.org/bushfiles/stealinghome.html

"Reading performance in Texas has improved: 88 percent of the third grade students passed the reading portion of the state assessment test in 1999 � up from 76 percent in 1994."
"Minority students have made strong gains: African-American students in both the eighth and fourth grade increased their passing rate on the reading exam by 23 points between 1994 and 1999. Hispanic eighth grade students posted a 40-point gain on the math exam during the same time period."
These statistics are based on a STATE administered test, the TAAS. Texas students were within the national averge when taking the NAEP, which is a national aptitude test, and the gap between minority and white students scores increased on this test. Perhaps you should read http://olam.ed.asu.edu/epaa/v8n49/

I never said George Bush was a dumbass. I said he was a boob. There are much more qualified, innovative people within the Republican party for the postition of president.

It would be nice if you would post some links to your stats. georgebush.com?

elam

[Spitfire]

quote:

---

...he was a general partner (owned some of it). He did not manage the team. And yes he did turn the team profitable.

---

That�s a contradiction by the book... How exactly did he turn the team profitable by being a general partner?

[faustgfx]

i haven't looked at this thread before, and now that i finished reading the 111 posts, i have only one thing to say.

you americans are idiots. but it's okay, the rest of the world is amused :>

gore and bush are equal idiots. the only difference is that gore has a cooler last name.



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sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

[email protected] /
icq#35983387

[Spitfire]

Rofl! Word up, niggah.

[Typo Dave]

Chris, you asked an Australian a little while back on this thread about getting fined when we don't vote. I used to live in Japan, and didn't vote in a Western Australian state election (didn't get off my arse to do anything about it) - $50 fine. Explained it to the electoral commission as being abroad, so I didn't have to pay for it.

To those Europeans who are coming down so hard on the US system: Bear in mind that they have a very very different culture. Gun ownership is entrenched there. I have had some interesting debates recently with very rational people who insist they have the right to bear 12-20 guns. And they do, in the States. Up until then I thought gun owners lived in the Ozarks and believed that "politicians prefer their peasants unarmed".

Now, for those of us who come from countries where that is an anaethema (Australia a few years back imposed a gun tax - 1% of personal income a tax to buy the arms off the people and destroy them) this seems frightening. Americans however look to the Civil War and their proud history as justification for gun proliferation.

You may not agree with it - I don't - but there is not a thing anyone can do about it while Charlton Heston and his mates are running around promoting the Constitution as justification.

For me personally, it just means when I go travelling I avoid the US. Its a shame because I have some good friends there.

My point was, esp. to the Europeans posting here, show some tolerance of other people's cultures - this includes US culture.

[Typo Dave]

Ah, cripes I didn't even mention the election...
I live in Hong Kong - I have a People's Liberation Army base a block away - I hope Gore comes through because Bush wants to re-introduce the SDI, and I'm too close to the action nowadays.
Foreign policy - the least talked about issue in US politics, the issue which affects most of the world.

[Affected]

ON a side note, I always laugh when the words 'leader of the free world' are uttered, referring to the US president... If it's a free world, and the president is the leader, shouldn't the rest of us get a vote as well?

(Of course, a free world with leaders is an oxymoron.)

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw