[Kaiju]

No! Those ideals are practiced and legislated by Republicans. The only argument Democrats can make is the abortion issue. Most (not all) Republicans do believe that the unborn do have a right to live. I respect a woman's right to choose when her life is in danger or when she has been violated, but not when they use abortion as a birth control method due to them being irresponsible. On to the homosexuality issue, no legislation needed here. It is a way of life and they should be treated as anyone else. No special rights. Yes the United States of America was founded on religious freedom with a foundation based on Christian principles. Notice how our money says "In God we trust". I am not religious but I respect our tradition and the accompanying values.
Anyone over 18 and not convicted of a felony should be able to carry a gun. Period.
Election reform is just another way of the losing party saying they aren't happy with the results.
White men are not being oppressed. Society needs to be color blind.

By the way, if you can find a district on that map that is incorrect...let me know.

[This message has been edited by Kaiju (edited November 16, 2000).]

[Count Zero]

Kaiju, what about the death penalty?
How does one be against abortion, but for death penalty?
And are you joking; everyone should be allowed to CARRY a gun around? I personally wouldn't step outside once a law like that would be passed, regardless of how much the guy sitting next to me with a Magnum in his hand doesn't have a criminal record. Every goddamn barfight would turn into a gunfight, not a fistfight.
Hey, it's your grave...

[Kaiju]

I don't think we should intentionally take an innocent life. The death penalty is reserved for murderers and terrorists.

Gun control has not and never will work. Ask Australia and England. And don't even bring it up as a possibility in the United States of America because we have it explicitly written in our Bill of Rights. Trying to limit our access to guns is exactly the same as limiting our freedom of speech. These politicians that try and legislate stupidity are mind-numbing. These are the same people that force us to wear seatbelts. Of course seatbelts work...but it should be our choice as whether or not to wear them. Why have laws to protect people who are not bright enough to protect themselves?

[FaithInChaos]

our constitution says militas have a right to bear arms. it doesnt say the indavidual has a right to bear arms.

[above]

Kaiju: The Death Penalty isn't flawless either, it has also killed innocent people.

FaithInChaos: I'd like to here some of Nader's radical ideas. Would one of them be taking the US troops out of Europe and using that money so every kid has a scholarship to a state university or equivalent?

[Chris]

The 2nd Amendment as follows:

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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The right of the People to keep and bear arms.

[Ragnarok]

I agree with Count Zero, everybody carrying a gun?? I will run away to Europe. Here in Spain people are allowed to have guns to hunt, but they have to pass every year a test and pay taxes, and we still have some problems now and then.

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The death penalty is reserved for murderers and terrorists.

Pardon? You are defending life of an unborn children that will probably destroy a young woman's life and ambitions but you don't mind killing those criminals. What are they, junk? animals? They are also human beings.

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Trying to limit our access to guns is exactly the same as limiting our freedom of speech

So in your opinion carrying a gun is a way of expressing yourself? You kill someone and you express your feelings. Wow.

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Why have laws to protect people who are not bright enough to protect themselves?

Because those laws don't protect you but the people that surrounds you. You are not going to shoot at your head but at another's head. That's the problem.

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Would one of them be taking the US troops out of Europe and using that money so every kid has a scholarship to a state university or equivalent?

That's the kind of ideas that improve the quality of life.

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The 2nd Amendment as follows:

It's the second one? I would vote to change this.

-Ragnarok

[Kaiju]

Chris: Glad to see that someone can accurately quote the Constitution.

It is not that everyone should carry a gun. The fact remains that they should have the right to carry a firearm.

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"that will probably destroy a young woman's life and ambitions but you don't mind killing those criminals. What are they, junk? animals? They are also human beings."

Are you kidding me? So you are telling me that in order to rectify a mistake or error in judgment, a woman must kill. People need to take responsibility for their actions, whether it be using a firearm, driving a vehicle, or in their personal life. What's the difference in killing a baby one minute from birth or one minute after birth. Legally there is a great difference, but in reality it is just taking an innocent life.
Should a woman be able to kill a retarded child because it is destroying her personal "ambition"? Here in the United States we are not able to just kill people for our own ambitions.

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Ragnarok, stay in Spain. You could never understand the freedoms and liberties we enjoy in the states.

[This message has been edited by Kaiju (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

Kaiju, please, don't say "You could never understand the freedoms and liberties we enjoy in the states.". Are you meaning in Spain there is no liberty? Oh, no, it's just we are all dumbass 'cause we don't say every night "USA is the best country".

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So you are telling me that in order to rectify a mistake or error in judgment, a woman must kill

No, you have misunderstood me. I'm telling you that you are so proud of defending the life of a living being that still isn't a person BUT you also are very proud of the dead penalty, killing a person. I think this is called hipocresy.

Personaly I think some of the best countries to live and the most liberal are France and Nordic ones like Finland and Norway.

Sorry if someone is offended, but my principles on these subjects are quite strong actualy.

-Ragnarok

[Chris]

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What are they, junk? animals? They are also human beings.

Those are human beings that cost us 40,000 dollars a year in prison (a well paid salary) just because they are mentally unstable to live in our society! And we are supposed to take care of them BECAUSE they killed someone or multiple people!

I am for the death penalty ONLY on extreme situations. And only if multiple psycotic evaluations have been issued. I don't think someone should be killed just from a judge saying so right in the trial.

And I just wanna clarify, I believe in the right to bear arms. But only to the individual homes. A gun or 2 in the home is the limit I think they should put. No public carring of weapons. Not because people can go crazy and start shooting, but ACCIDENTS can happen. And bringing guns just around town, something unfortunate could happen w/o the person carrying the gun wanted to happen.

So to clarify, 1-2 handguns should be limited in the home only, no public carring of them (other then hunting). Which is sort of going on now, but it isn't totally down in writing yet.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Kaiju]

Ragnarok: I have no problem accepting your opinion. It just makes perfect sense that you enjoy your own standards of living in Europe which are quite different from that of the United States. I am a proud American and have no qualms defending our heritage.

I did not misunderstand your statement regarding the death penalty and abortion. Let me restate my opinion. I do not think the government should mandate the intentional killing of any innocent being. I am in favor of the death penalty as long as the criminal has had full access to the courts. This is not hypocritical at all.

[This message has been edited by Kaiju (edited November 17, 2000).]

[Snookrod]

Blaming violence on guns is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat.

[Kaiju]

Snookrod was speaking on my behalf on all previous replies. So any future replies should be addressed to him.

I personally hate politics.

[Brue]

quote:

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Originally posted by Snookrod:
Blaming violence on guns is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'Donnell being fat.

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LOL, thats the best analigy i've ever heard! LOL

[Freddio]

without guns...

no one could kill..

well of course they could but know where near as easily.. I guess you could use a fork to stab someone in the heart... but you'd have to get close enough to do that. Or you could kill then with a hammer (OUCh) that would really hurt and be rather messy too. But without guns there would be no drive by shootings/ school kid masacres and stuff..

Simple guns kill not the people...

the bullet comes from the gun not the persons mouth or anything.

no Guns no deaths

[Chris]

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Simple guns kill not the people...

AHHH! What are you saying! No guns means knifes, machetes, even bows! Guns is NOT the problem at all.

Look at the neighborhoods drive-by shootings are going on. Single parent hoods that work 14 hour days. The kids learn nothing else but revenge and profit, cause they don't get hardly anything at all. And when you dangle 100 dollar bills in there face, that becomes a addiction! And they will do ANYTHING to keep that addiction alive. And if guns weren't around, then they would find something else to kill someone with.

So the fact goes back to the parents and neighborhood community. Better parents and communities = no killings, period!

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the bullet comes from the gun not the persons mouth or anything.

The gun's bullet comes from the firing from the gun, which is pulled by the trigger by the person's finger, which is connected to the person's hand, which in fact is attached to the person's brain. Which states the fact, the people kill, not the gun.

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no Guns no deaths

Wrong again, sorry. What type of place did we have before guns. Did anyone die?!? Hell yes, anything can kill anyone, it is the motive that kills though, not the object which is used to kill.

[Freddio]

Read My fukin post again you fool Chris...

I didnt say that there would be no death without guns... I said there would

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no one could kill..

well of course they could but know where near as easily..

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see>>...

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The gun's bullet comes from the firing from the gun, which is pulled by the trigger by the person's finger, which is connected to the person's hand, which in fact is attached to the person's brain. Which states the fact, the people kill, not the gun.

and could you do that without a gun? HUH

No you couldn't...

you would have to run around trying to stab ppl... and the chances of death are decreased if you are stabbed rather than shot...

bullets tumble inside you when they hit...

they make an awful mess inside...

a stab wound is far cleaner and precise..
abviously if you are stabbed in the head you aint got no chance...


Guns are the biggest killers not knives/spears crossbows/ etc...

and if we didnt have em it would be harder to go around killing ppl agreed?

[Brue]

haha this topic started out as whether BUsh or Gore should be president. Now its a debate about guns!

[Kaiju]

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Guns are the biggest killers not knives/spears crossbows/ etc...

"knives/spears crossbows/ etc..." will be part of the biggest killers if you take away guns.

This is like saying taking a pencil away from an artist is going to stop them from drawing.

You have to get rid of the killer to stop the killing.

[This message has been edited by Kaiju (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Count Zero]

"Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier."
Kaiju, but you don't have to make it easy for them, now do you?
If you MUST have guns, I say make the laws at least STRICT. Here in Finland, it is not impossible to get a gun, just not exactly easy. I think that this is a good method; people who WANT guns can get them, but it requires effort and thus some amount of information and responsibility.
And as for the abortion issue, I am for the freedom of the mother to decide, not the government or the religious groups. Mentioned in another thread that a fetus is a parasite, not a human as such, imho.

[Freddio]

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knives/spears crossbows/ etc..." will be part of the biggest killers if you take away guns.

well abviously... but would they kill as much as guns... no they wouldnt..

how about all those school kid masacres and stuff... would they have happened without guns?
no..

they may have been able to kill a few people with a knife but nowhere near on a the scale of what a gun could of done...


we would have deaths without guns... but far less then what there would be if we had guns...

you can't deny that..

[Kaiju]

Count Zero: Are you trying to quote me, because I don't believe I ever said that.

As far as the gun issue.. who are usually involved in killings, robberies, hold ups, and terrorism? I'm pretty sure it is criminals. Criminals usually could care less if there are laws or not. So, when a criminal endangers my family with their gun I'll be saying, "Hey I sure am glad I'm not allowed to possess a firearm. Otherwise I might be able to protect my family right now."

As far as abortion goes I don't see much difference in killing the child at birth than say.. after they are 5 years old. Ya know.. she waits till the kid goes to school and if they aren't showing potential maybe they should have the opportunity to kill them then. It would make more sense after all they put money and more effort into the child by then. Then they should REALLY know if they want it. Try the child out and see if it is a burden.. if it doesn't work out we can always kill them. Just because the mother made a mistake or had something bad happen to her shouldn't give her the right to take a life. There are such things as adoption agencies. If the mother doesn't want the child I'm sure there are several families out there that would.

Freddio: The school killings are the parents fault. In case you didn't know the weapons the children used were illegal. We do have age limits over here. That is all I have to say about that.

Less deaths because of less guns?? Only in a perfect world and we do not live in one.

I'm done with this discussion.

[This message has been edited by Kaiju (edited November 18, 2000).]

[Ragnarok]

Kaiju, if someone already [i]is[/is] endangering your family with a gun, you have nothing to do. If he wants to shoot, they will be dead by the time you reach a gun unless you always have one on your hand.
And if he doesn't want to shoot he could get nervous when you have a gun and shoot anyways so he will die and someone else of your family.

Oh, and it's great to be 15 and have a baby. You know, you can't kill a life that still isn't aware of itself. But hey, it's fun to kill animals, to kill plants, to kill criminals.

[Snookrod]

I think those of you who are in favor or gun control are missing the point...

What good are gun laws if CRIMINALS are the ones using them improperly? The answer is none!
Law abiding citizens have the second amendment right to protect themselves with a firearm.

Show me one law on the book that would have prevented any of the mass murders in the US or Australia. Yea thats what I thought...
Those kids and whackoes stole those weapons and broke over 50 laws in the process. The key to the problem is education, not more laws.

Guns are relatively new to the human race. We have been killing each other for thousands of years and will continue to do so.

[Chris]

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and could you do that without a gun? HUH

No you couldn't...

you would have to run around trying to stab ppl... and the chances of death are decreased if you are stabbed rather than shot...

bullets tumble inside you when they hit...

they make an awful mess inside...

a stab wound is far cleaner and precise..
abviously if you are stabbed in the head you aint got no chance...


Guns are the biggest killers not knives/spears crossbows/ etc...

and if we didnt have em it would be harder to go around killing ppl agreed?

---

The problem isn't guns, and if there was a pocession law that says you can't carry or own a gun then it wouldn't stop. Look at drugs. Even pocession is illegal, and you know how easy it is to get drugs?!?

If you take away guns, something in it's place will be the biggest killer, then you will want to take that away, then another thing will replace THAT THING, then you will want to take that away! See this domino effect, that is why it is important to protect this right, cause if we don't, it will DOMINO all the way down to dictatorship!

[JayBee]

It really amuses me that Americans defending their "right to bear arms", even when they quote the "full" amendment, omit the first few words...

Observe

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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

That doesn't acutally make sense, does it? I don't mean morally or anything, but grammatically, when the parenthetical part is removed, it reads:

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A well regulated Militia, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It's nonsense. Is that a list? If so, why the parentheses. And why mention a militia, if anyone has the right to bear arms?

A little digging in my library found this quote...

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As part of a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Suddently, it makes sense!

Also, I'm not a hotshot, but this is an amendment, right? It wasn't actually written into the constitution, but was added later, yeah? So it's hardly a "constitutional right"...

Anyway, this is about Gore vs. Bush, right? IMHO they're both right wing corporate puppets who will do whatever it takes to please their sponsors. The lists of "What Gore/Bush promises to do" are taken straight from the Fisher Price "My First Book Of Electioneering" - they basically amount to "I'll make your life better and the other guy will make it worse"... hardly good manifesto promises.

As far as I'm concerned, one's as bad as the other, but as someone's already said, Gore realises the situation. Bush thinks he's on a mission from God, Blues-Brothers-Stylee, and will lead the US into a big car chase across central Chicago...

Woah, got carried away with the analogy there

Anyway, looks like you're getting Bush. As one of my American friends said to her kids:

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"Hey kids, you guys better start thinking of where in Europe you'd like to live, cos if Bush gets in, we're out of here"

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And she's a churchgoer

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. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[Freddio]

quote:

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The school killings are the parents fault. In case you didn't know the weapons the children used were illegal. We do have age limits over here. That is all I have to say about that.

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True but all I said that if there were no guns this couldnt of happened... You can't deny that!

Its too late you will never get rid of guns.... If you do pose laws about restricting guns the real criminals out there wont abide by them... and all the decent ppl out there will.. so then all the bad guys have guns and all the good guys dont

you can't win either way..

[Duckman2]

I am totally against both candidates, NADER forever!!! and guns suck. And hunting with a rifle isn't a real sport anyway. Yeah it's real manly to blow the head off a' six point buck from 300 yards with a scope and a high powered rifle. You want a real sport go hunt a lion with nothing a spear and a loin cloth, I'd pay admission to see that.

[Chris]

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Its too late you will never get rid of guns.... If you do pose laws about restricting guns the real criminals out there wont abide by them... and all the decent ppl out there will.. so then all the bad guys have guns and all the good guys dont

Good, finally realized. Now why would it be necessary to get rid of them, if it is too late? We need to teach the children that guns are bad and last resort of self-defence only (and hunting, if needed). And that there are consequences for using a gun. But getting rid of them will not effect anything.

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"Hey kids, you guys better start thinking of where in Europe you'd like to live, cos if Bush gets in, we're out of here"

Man, I knew Gore was a sore looser, but all his voters are too? Sad, sad I tell ya.....

[Chris]

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Yeah it's real manly to blow the head off a' six point buck from 300 yards with a scope and a high powered rifle. You want a real sport go hunt a lion

Sorry, don't have many lions here in Iowa.