[Fred Flick Stone]

This stuff is from the book Composition of Outdoor Painting by Edgar Payne, a premiere landscape painter during the early 20th century. This book is one of the very few books ever published solely on the subject of composition in painting. The info applies to any type of painting or drawing conditions, whether figurative, design, conceptual, comics, animation, etc. I would write a lot about this stuff, but I think it's going to take you long enough as it is to download the images. At any rate, the meaning of each page is written at the bottom of each of the pages. The really good one is the things to avoid in composing. The double page spreads deal with the forteen basic types of composition. Any and all great paintings have one of these compositional influences within them, if not two of these devices. But you never want to exceed two of these compositional devices, or you will end up with a big, convoluted mess. Study thesse pages closely. If you plan on a career in art, this stuff will be taken with you every where you go...have fun with it...

Sorry, I forgot to drop the DPI on the second image.

[This message has been edited by Fred Flick Stone (edited June 14, 2000).]

[Thorn]

You have a very generous spirit, Fred. Thankyou.

[craig]

Fred,

As usual, this is enlightening!
It is hard to describe the
insight your giving me but it
is definitely tangible. Thank you!
I guess I just can't say that
enough!

Question: is it true that there are
definetly some things that you cannot
do in composition but there are many
things that you can do? Basically,
if you avoid the cardinal no-no's does
anything go as long it works in the
picture? This is broad, I realize, but
your thoughts (and anyone elses ) would
be appreciated! Thanks, a thousand times.

c

[freddy flicks stones]

Anything goes. Even if you break every principal in art, you can still do it. But it has to be for a reason. If that reason is justified visually by the viewer, then it really doesn't matter. This is a scary edge to walk on though. And, you really need to know the principals to pull this off successfully. Not knowing them makes anything you do a Turkey shoot. And it really doesn't matter what you do, there is always going to be problems with the art. I may sound harsh about all this, and it's probably because there is no other way to say it. This is truth. If you are going to work as an artist for a living. Now, you can as a professional who may not really know what your doing although you call yourself a pro, work with companies who don't have a clue, and get away with murder. You might even get a big name with the industry you work with because of it. Step outside the little arena you have made for yourself, and SPLAT, reality smacks you in the face...YOu won't get any work, maybe a job or two, but the stakes are different, the rules are harsher, the art directors have a clue, and you have no control over the deadlines. Something that kills every young artist, because most art schools don't ever cover this. If your late with your assignment, you get a B...ooooohhhh...big friggin deal...you turn in an assignment for a big client late, you don't get paid, or you get docked pay, and you don't get a second chance, and you taint your name, possibly never getting any work again. I have seen many psuedo genius art guys do this.
Where am I going with this? I have no idea now but rules can be broken if you know them, not knowing them opens you up for all sorts of critisism you may not be ready to take. Geez, maybe I need to make a flame thread on the things you don't want to do because you don't have a clue. I didn't realize I could go off like this. Guess it's because of the comic book industry, and all the genius artists who have no clue, and ruined that industry for everyone...Now that one I could give you an earfull about...and none of you would ever read a comic again, or you'd all call me a kook. The results of posting a flame...maybe I should be monitored now I'm done now my fingers hurt...
Oh, I will finish all the rest of the cubes on Friday...

[Frost]

Fred: I guess what needs to be said needs to be said. I think you're right about what you've just said. I'm not famous (in the least bit), but people generally respect me a lot at the places I've worked at. Sadly, I don't know any of the things you're posted here and in a few other posts -- things I have read, and will try to study further and implement in 'real' future works.

It always makes you wonder... how good am I? From people who don't know a straight line from a circle (like your parents and friends in general) will think you're a God -- to people who have studied art will think it's the worst absolute crap they've ever seen... obviously, if one is to do art somewhat seriously, then he must compare himself to something beyond (his objective) and not take into account (as much) the oppinion of the underqualified general public (although this is where he finds out if the image is effective or not).

So, I guess that means I suck, but I'm not going to say that. =)

Cheers, and thanks for the great info you've posted lately -- I'm buying some of these books as soon as my credit card is unfrozen (*ahem*).

frost.

[pst]

Frost: As I was reading your reply to Fred, I had the same ideas in my mind as you. I just posted a couple of my pics, and I got good response on one of them, and not so good on the others. The strange thing is that it has been the opposite way around when I have showed them to "ordinary" people who don't have a clue about art. So I started wondering about who I'm creating art for, is it for myself, people who know art or people who don't know art? Then I start to think about what Fred said about comic artists, alot of them are creating art for kids or generally people who don't have a clue, right? And alot of these people look upon these people as Gods, but Fred think they're all a bunch of talentless artists. But they have achieved their goal, which is to create a good visual story that people like. Is that good or bad? Fred thinks it is bad, but personaly I'm not so sure about that. And now I have started to babble like Fred usually does.. No offence Fred, I love your babble..


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pSt [email protected]

[samdragon]

Fred is so right about that. I can't even begin to describe the numbers of people I know at school who never turn work in, or turn it in late, and still call themselves "the greatest".
But, unfortunately, the students bitch and cry so much the teachers have to lower the standard. Why? well, if they didn't, nothing would get done. I'm not exaggerating, each school has it's own "system." And if it's an artschool, most of them have to be accredited. IF the students keep failing, and no work is done, that's not good for keeping up accreditation. Of course that's only one factor in the game, but it's only hurting the students. About 3/4 of my class will end up working at K-Mart as a manager. They just don't have the discipline or respect required to make it in such a highly competitive field.
Now, teachers give assignments that are due in 2 or 3 weeks, instead of 1 week or less. But, when you're taking a 4000 level class (junior-senior) you should have the skills necessary to complete these projects in a short amount of time. There are people who graduate with B.F.A degree's in graphic design and couldn't tell you the first thing about composition,or what the difference is between vector and bitmap images (the list could go on) So imagine working for a graphic design house and not knowing how to make something that can be printed in 2 color PMS vector for easy scalability??? I could go on and on about this, but I've learned to just look at like this...Well, these people are my competition,when it comes to getting a job, so that's just that many less I have to worry about.
One other thing, don't be fooled. Depending on the graphic design firm or company you work with, there is alot of backstabbing going on. People will steel projects right out from under you! It could be the guy or girl who sets right beside you at the office. I'm sure it's like that in other fields as well. So you have to have the "drive" to really want this. That was one of the first things My instructor told me when I took my first commercial art class. Needless to say, it goes both ways

And while I'm ranting....
It should be considered when doing "art" what type of art it is. Are you doing fine art, or are you doing commercial art? hehehe I'll leave it up to you to find out the differences. both have different audiences

[ozenzo]

Great stuff as usual Fred...it's similar to what I'm reading in the Creative Illustration!!, this has to be the most informative stuff I've found on the internet....if yuo hadn't come along it probably would have taken years till I found out about half of the things I'm working on now!....thanks for saving me all that time!!..hopefully I'll get where I want to be a little quicker now..thank you for that!!

Recived my copy of the Bridgeman book today..got home and there it was! I found a copy of that book you recommended creative perspective for the artist

are there any other things I should be studying along with everthing else?

[craig]

Fred,

WHOA! Sorry to spin you up.
I will clarify, here: where
does rule breaking (and the production
of crap) end and TRUE INNOVATION begin?
Is there such a thing as TRUE INNOVATION
anymore? Everyone talks about rule
breaking (some for, some against) but few
seem to truely find the "oh my god, that
is truely amazing, and I have NEVER seen
anything like it!!!!".
I believe that one can be innovative within
the structures that the masters developed
and evolved with alot of hard work (and,
there own innovation)....anyway, blah blah!
I am sorry to spin you up and did not
mean to imply that one could just start
splatting it around and say "ooohh, I am so innovative...." You have to learn the
innovations of the masters before you
yourself can innovate....but that is just
me. Thanks, Fred, and all for the
responses.

c