[Visigoth]

I don't think I should offer an opinion to this...But I will anyway... =P

I think you both are acting childish. Grow the fuck up. Fallen; Stop thinking you're so high and mighty because you do photoreal work and synj doesn't. Synj; Stop thinking you're so high and mighty because you do animation and Fallen doesn't. 'Nuff said. Stop fucking acting like you're both still in highschool. The more you both pretend that you're insulted by each others presences, the more I laugh. =P

~{V}~

------------------
Oh god my eyes!

[synj]

i dont think i'm high and mighty. i'm just confident in my opinion you turdfat. eheheh

[Affected]

Whoa, look out, there's egos flying around everywhere!

Consider this piece of advice, all:
Be harsh on yourself, not others.

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Mergatroid]

If Fallen has truly left then he wouldn't be able to read all these wonderful things you guys are saying about him and that would be a shame. Everyone is treating this like he's dead or something by these obituaries that your writing.

All things evolve, so he leaves and someone else will join up to fill the spot and soon we will all forget about him.




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Mergatroid

[General Confusion]

Wow!!!! where am I at???? Oh that's right an ART FORUM......

------------------
www.geocities.com/genconfusion/

[Tinusch]

I think we should just drop this argument. Spitfire summed it up best. There's nothing more to say after reading his post.

[hennifer]

well, i hate to add to this. let me start by saying that fallen's anime-style pin-up girls show a lot of talent, even tho they're a bit formulaic. everyone's got a style and sticking to that isn't necessarily bad.

as far as his 'paintings', anyone that takes those as artistic works really needs to take a second look. specifically, have a look at this message string:

http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001108.html

note the proportion problems with the picture. the EXACT same problems as his earlier paintings. (leading someone to say "that's a man!") he denied it could be wrong, because, as he states in this string, he actually DOES trace the pictures! at the end of the string, scoobydoo mentions that the aspect ratio is wrong for tracing, and what can be done to fix that.

from this exact point on, all of fallen's 'paintings' were proportionally flawless. if the artistic process were that simple, all of us would be picassos and rembrandts by now!

i can appreciate a fine hand, and a nice color sense as much as the next person, but its obvious these are photo reproductions. tracing may have uses in commercial or graphic design, or even in fine art, but not if it's presented in disguise, as a painting. these images are not being posted with a nod to the original artist, and they really have no meaning of their own.

i'm sure most of this is old news to a lot of people, but to the newer people out there, if you're striving to become a really good original artist, there's no use looking up to this kind of work. its just a cop-out. ..and its certainly not an excuse to develop some kind of holier-than-thou attitude.

i've been well aware of fallen's dubious work since his original posts, but i had no idea he'd develop this kind of fan base! seriously, if you really want a photo-reproduction of a pin-up girl, why not grab a Maxim, and look at the original?

and art aside, he's been tempermental since the beginning. as far as i'm concerned, he's not welcome back, as that's the kind of attitude that has stopped me from posting (and sometimes even lurking) here over the last few months.


------------------
hennifer

[synj]

hey mister fallen, "i rest my case". you poopertracer.

EVERYONE SHAKE! shakey shakey shake! cmon shake it because it took 9 months to make it now



-synj www.synj.net

[Joachim]

Lotsa good points there hennifer, I for one agree with all your points.

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Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[This message has been edited by Joachim (edited June 08, 2000).]

[Muzman]

I'd just like to reiterate my point, as it wasn't all that clear and not everyone will know about it.

Fallen has done this before.
His manga girls attracted one or two comments like" uhh, it's good but when are you gonna try something else?" (which is what synj has said, abeit in his unique and coarse way.)
Fallen then posted a message saying he was basically going off in a huff, never coming back and that he didn't come here to wear criticism. He has since changed style and got almost nothing but praise. Until now.
So stop going on about how talented he his. Since it only takes one or two little knocks to make him "forum suicide" it shouldn't make any difference.

(-edit- hennifer's nailed it in those last couple of lines)

[This message has been edited by Muzman (edited June 08, 2000).]

[surphun]

hrrmm.. quite an interesting thread. perhaps this has a larger purpose than just saying that someone is leaving due to someone else? personally, this should be a wake up call to the whole forum. I personally come here, post my stuff and look for other's suggestions on my technique and usage of color, etc. from people who are better than me at this. I basically come here to LEARN. Besides, art is food for my own soul, and it's not going to be sold for someone else's two cents like a Hamburger Happy Meal. wow, I feel better now.
out
surphun

[Nex]

What can I say..

Since I am here in this forum I have seen three sides of things going on here.

There are the friendly, helpful and there are the childish and arrogant.

And there are those who praise everyone to godhood, which is total crap too.

Know what you are worth, don't crawl in dust and kiss shoes.. this ass kissing makes me really wanna puke.. (excuse my colorful use of language).

Be it synj, fallen, dhab, craig m., francis, fred, sc00p, micke, cos, Moozeman, ... there are so many good artists here, but don't make the error to loose focus and fall on your knees to pray. They don't have magic pens, you can do what they do if you practice hard enough.

People that I admire (who gives a fuck who I do admire huh?) are the ones that are mature in their drawing AND in their abilities to deal with other less talented/practiced people. Just look who posts tutorials and who responds to newbies that post their first pictures /answer questions/ offer help and you will find those that I talk about.

There are so many cool guys and gals here ..don't spoil the fun of being a community with one common hobby that is drawing.

See you all

[AprilYSH]

was this less than 3 months ago? http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001405.html

quote:

---

I don't care what people think of my artwork, i do it for me. If you don't like it, then don't look at it. I simply post here to direct people who are interested to my site. If your not interested then don't go. Unless you're asked, which most times in here people state, then by all means fire away...but you weren't so don't.

---

quote:

---

Posting on a board does not invite criticism. People who post on a board ask for criticism which is very apparent if you've seen any of the posts in here. I've seen some really goo d stuff in here that just gets ripped to shit by the "untouchables".
This was simply an advertisment, so to speak, for my site. That's why it was posted.

---

quote:

---

Don't care, Won't post anymore.
I will leave it to the "untouchables"

---

we've seen an apology for being so touchy, dunno if it's still valid or it expired.

pity anyone if this is how too many people will remember them. even one person is too many.

or is someone snickering cos of the huge number of hits to their site all of a sudden? was synj in on it? it's all a conspiracy. the laugh's on the reader.


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April http://april.cjb.net

[synj]

eheh yeah right. what are you one of the JFK caseworkers? eheheh

it hasn't budged a bit. i wish making fallen look as stupid as he is was more rewarding as well:

bottom number being the date, top being the hits x100.

-synj

[Qory]

Hmmm.... speaking of which, I could really go for some Doritos right now


Qory

PS: just wanted to show how stupid this post is. Obviously, Fallen is a fucking awesome artist. Obvisously, Synj is a fucking awesome artist. They both know it's true. We all know it's true. Need I say more?

[synj]

qory, i love doritos.

you know that reminds me of some strange tidbit of info which i have no clue is true. there was this thingie on tv that says the same part of your brain that makes you capable to create is also equally as powerful of making you capable of hating and loving. if it actually is true, then is it any wonder artists fight every once in a while then?

[Marksman]

hmmm my 2sens
fallen stop winjing you get so much fucking prais for your work you get one or two critersisms (sorry i cant spell) and you got off the handel
at lest you get reaplys for you posts i get 2 or 3 max
so stop been a big grlls blows!!



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Welcome to the real world!

[SaltyDog]

Lordy, Lordy!! I agree with Alias, this is almost like being back in highschool, except there isn't a bully knocking my lunchtray over and spilling my milk in my lap.
While I don't agree with Synj's approach, I have to agree with his point. This board has been swamped by ass-kissing to the point that constructive criticism is looked down upon. Noone's knocking your talent Fallen, but there are some definite things to improve upon. (Just as we all can improve.)
So when you get posts commenting on changes, take them for that..comments, and leave the sensitive ego behind. If you must leave, then do it. And if you come back, make sure your feelings aren't on your sleeve. I realize that's a hard thing to do for many artists, but in the long run it'll make you a better judge of your own work as well as others.

*Salty looks at the clock..."Welp my 15 minutes of fame are up"*

[immi]

Uh yeah, what spitfire said:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spitfire:
Anyway, i agree with sc00p. This is an obvious attempt to gather sympathy and make people choose sides. Every "You're so cool dont leave we'll miss you" only adds to that.

Fallen : you dont need these kind of torpedo-tactics. You are a great artist blessed with an exceptional talent, especially your later pieces show that. Dont drop to a level this childish.

Synj : Yes, you are attacking Fallen. I dont see why this would be neccesary, since i dont know of any "personal" problems between you two. It's not like there can be only one, there shouldn't be any competition here, it's not like fallen poses a threat to you, or reverse, since you are in your way just as good as fallen is. If you dont like his work, that's a matter of personal opinion, formulate it in a constructive and mature way or dont share it.

This should be a place devoted to "art" in what form that may come, not a place to fight out your (personal) problems with people you probably haven't even met.

Summarized : You are both acting childish, dont make me buy an expensive ticket to come & spank you both.

---

[AprilYSH]

i'm just hangin out for an orangey fat gif animation with a transparent bg. preferrably eating dorritos. then i'll hold it as evidence. for whatever case, i dunno, i'll make it up later.

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April http://april.cjb.net

[AprilYSH]

great, u get rid of "junior" member when u hit 21 (posts, that is.)

22! surpassed iq now!

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April http://april.cjb.net

[AliasMoze]

For me this forum serves multiple purposes, including:
1) Free advice from other pros. 2) Free lessons from Fred and Craig Mullins 3) A place to get honest feedback on stuff 4) A place to give tips to up and coming artists

If Fallen, or any other artist, can't take criticism of the art he posts, then he is only here for the purpose of having his ego stroked. This teenage episode of Fallen's brings the quality of the forum down more than anything I've seen. If he wants to leave, then let him leave.

If people like this are allowed to drag the forum down, then all the professional artists will be gone.

------------------
AliasMoze

"That activates my hilarity unit."

[This message has been edited by AliasMoze (edited June 09, 2000).]

[Drorak]

Hmmm... can I ask what motivated him to start this thread to begin with?

Fallen, there's no question that you're a very good artist. And what you post is usually flawless, so it's very difficult to criticize the piece itself. Hence the ooooos and the awwwws you receive. Some of the more acomplished artist on this board though, are beyond oooos and awwwws. So if they are to make a comment on your piece, then they must find something about it that they can criticize. Since the piece itself is usually flawless, then all that is left is to criticize your style. This seems to upset you for some reason. I don't know why though, they're only criticizing your work so that you can become a better artist. If you are not ready to evolve beyond the work that you are doing right now, then simply say so, there's no reason to take this criticism personally and get mad over it.

To all the people who posted that they are sick and tired of all the oooos and awwwws that he receives. You all sound like you are jealous or something. Why do you blame him for how other people respond to his paintings. If they like his work, they're going to say so. I don't see anything wrong with that. According to some of you, it seems like the correct way to post on this board is... "If you have nothing bad to say about someone's work, then don't say anything at all."

[Spitfire]

"I just dont have the time to waste on you." - Red Roses for a Blue Lady

[Joachim]

this is stupid of me, but I just want to say a few things...I don't think that the "more accomplished artists" here feel that they have to give criticism to post in a thread. Not that I say that I'm one of them, but I really see a lot of flaws in fallens paintings. I want to comment them every time he post a new one, but after what I've learned, he really don't care about others's opinions as long as he self likes it.

Also, if you look at what he or those who likes to copy photos focus on, it is to get it as clean as possible more than getting the basic shape, light and color correct. I personally don't care if every shading is so smoooooth, it really doesn't matter, it's the easiest part. And being to obsessed by this part, you will get it to look polished but not correct, because every face don't have all that smooooth skin every where with just one color gradient to it...that's why I think when I see for example fallens lates pictures, it have the basic lines which is real, because it's ripped from a photo, but still the faces don't look realistic because of lack of knowledge on how to use the photo as reference, but still be able to add more to it instead removing the variations.
For me it looks like these pictures are drawn in greyscale and then just masked each area in changed the color, since there are no subtle elements.
And to do that stuff from a photo doesn't require a good artist, just patience and accuracy, no talent or understanding.
I don't say this to take fallen down, but this is my honest opinion. I personally require a lot more than this to be able to say that "yes, this artist is talented"...because when experience the demos scene you see hundreds of artists doing this exact thing, copy a picture to the bone. Those most patience ones did really impressive pictures, even though they couldn't draw a single line on paper...just because a photo or or another artist did the thinking for them.

And, I can't understand how the artist himself gets a kick by doing pictures like this, the only thing I can understand that drives someone to sit and do this over and over again is the "fame" you get from those who actually thinks this is impressive.

ps..here's an example I want to point out.. http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002623.html
read Fallens comments, he don't mention proportions, shadow or anything..just how ozenzo can get it to look more smooth and polished. But, to improve a face, that is not at all the way to go. So, in my opinion, this is to mislead a person to focus on the wrong areas.


------------------
Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/



[This message has been edited by Joachim (edited June 09, 2000).]

[micke]

joa:
I could'nt have said this better myself.
-Micke

------------------
-Mikael Noguchi-

http://www.katode.org/noguchi/

[ozenzo]

all that joachim, and you still didn't try to help me out..you even used my thread as an example so I know you read it, but still you didn't try to help......I'm not after fame I just want to improve.....I guess I'm not good enough to get help from the "more accomplished artists" here

I'll keep posting anyway hopefully I'll get better through perseverance and hard work
thanks

[Joachim]

nooo, ozenzo,
I'm really sorry about that. Don't get me wrong. I did not use your thread to take your picture as an example, just Fallens comments. But, I never say stuff like this, so I didn't want to interfear with the comments you got...don't like to make trouble. But, since this is cleaning hours on the forum , I thought I could use that opportunity to write a few lines.

But, I liked your picture, and I didn't felt that what Fallen did helped you out much. If you can be a bit patient, I will give you some decent feedback later today..after work hours. ok?

Again, I'm sorry....that comment was not very professional of me.


------------------
Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[ozenzo]

fantastic....hopefully I'll be finished with my latest work and get some good feedback on that

[synj]

actually joachim's comments on that thread to begin with DID help, ozenzo, since he was pointing out what he feels is important in a piece.

-synj