[Chris]

Me and a friend were having this discussion last night (other words, lots of yelling, etc. J/K )

This is just for Human Nature! (not 90's living, or 70's living, etc.)

Anyway I said:
Food
Water
Heat

He added shelter. I disagreed and he stood his ground. I say human nature CAN live w/o shelter, it would be rough, but you wouldn't die standing in the rain.

I said shelter was a WANT, not a need, cavemen wanted to be out of the rain, cause it was wet...but they didn't NEED it.

Anyway that is all....what do you guys think?

[balistic]

I can't think of many climates where a human could live for extended periods without shelter . . . /maybe/ the rainforest.

Any place that had snow fall would be out of the question . . . and excessive sun can easily kill you too.



------------------

Brian "balistic" Prince
3D Artist
Eggington Productions

[Nex]

If heat equals Fire:

no shelter=
vulnerable to animal predators -> physical harm

vulnerable to storms/ floods -> physical harm

rain -> no fire -> no heat -> hypothermia

rain -> wet skin -> water evaporates, skin te,perature drops -> danger of respiratory tract infections -> without medicaments.. probably death

wind -> hypothermia




[This message has been edited by Nex (edited October 18, 2000).]

[A.Buttle]

Wind does not equal more oxygen. All it is is moving air, which has more than just oxygen in it, nitrogen and carbon dioxide are good examples. If our atmosphere was pure oxygen fires would burn uncontrollably.

------------------
I wanna get with you, girl!...
And your sister, I think her name's Debra....

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[Chris]

doh! sorry, didn't mean more oxygen...i know molecules, i meant more circulation of air...which makes fire burn better and longer.

[JayBee]

Ever heard of someone dying "from exposure"?

That's what happens when you don't have shelter. It's a need.

Simple as that.

(he says bluntly )

------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[Chris]

You guys must be considering that it is cold when it does rain. I never said that. You don't die from standing in the rain, fires don't always burn out from the rain, and you don't need a shot from infection every time you step into the rain till it quits....so I am still in disagrement.

Predetors are all over if you have shelter or not.

And in southern climates, rain doesn't always = no heat.

and vulnerable with floods are there with or without shelter..

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be praticle w/o shelter, I am just saying that you don't need it if you didn't have it.

and to conclude, wind == more oxygen -> hotter fire -> more heat

that is all.

[Ian]

Coffe.
Music.
Women.

[Count Zero]

You need shelter. Period.
Name one place where you don't? You sleep in the rain and you will most probably get sick. And if you can't find shelter (ie. a dry place) it will eventually kill you. Ever heard about what happened to lots of guys in WWI? Their feet literally rotted off for standing in the wet mud all the time.
If not rain, then cold will get you. If not cold, then heat.
Oh, and I consider a tree shelter. Or a cave, preferably.
As for heat being a necessity, I agree partially, but heat doesn't help if you are in the open when it's -30C (Unless we're talking MAJOR insulation/thick clothing). Or if it's +40C without a shade (ie. shelter) all the water in the world won't save you if it lasts for an entire summer.

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[Thorn]

Shelter is a need. Lack of it = loss of condition = vulnerability to serious illness and/or dangerous lifeforms = strong possibility of death. Humans (particularly in the West) aren't what they were, pretechnology era. As David Suzuki (Environmental etc.) points out, we've domesticated ourselves.

[Thorn]

While I'm on the topic...me personally-I need love and humour 'to live', as opposed to just existing.

[Transcendence]

heh, this will prob'ly sound cliche, but all I need is my imagintation and I can live in my head. Those other things like shelter, food/water, etc would be nice too.

Reason why I say imagination is because I do a lot of daydreaming and what not and it helps me forget some problems and gives me ideas for things

[Nex]

just wanted to say:

rain does not necessarily have to cease the fire from burning but without shelter you won't have dry wood to throw in afterwards-> no fire anymore.

[Svanur]

One word: Pizza

[Chris]

Here is where I distinguish between the needs. See, Shelter is needed ONLY on the situation that is provided. It is sometimes needed if it rains a lot or preditors are around.

It isn't needed if it only rains once a month and there are no preditors. We adapt to that.

The thing that gets me then is food, water, and heat (provided by sun, fire, whatever) does NOT depend on the situation, doesn't matter what situation you are in, you NEED those 3 things..that is where I guess I am getting my reasoning..

[DaveT]

Well you know with 50gigs and if we assumed each pic was 20kb that would mean a lot of porn. Enough to start up your own porn site and charge people to view it. Which would bring in money to buy food and all that sort of stuff.

Sorted.

------------------
I have a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel....http://www.stas.net/dfb

[CapnPyro]

You need,

Food
Water
Shelter
Sex

Hey, the human species has to go on, right

btw, your wrong if you think you dont need shelter Go live in a wild forest for a week with no shelter, we'll see how you do.

-Capn

[CapnPyro]

btw, as for the porn, obviously your using modems. there's 2 levels of porn

1- Modem porn.
2- Broadband porn

Broadband porn, you have movies and full length shiat. I have a couple of 80 meg+ movies

CapnPyro,
Porn Connoisseur

[Shadow]

Woopsie daisies!! accidently posted twice

[This message has been edited by Shadow (edited October 20, 2000).]

[Shadow]

okay, i dont understand you people, you only need ONE thing, well its kinda made out of a buncha other things but ONE THING!! no other

a [ C O M P U T E R ] which is ofcourse connected to the net, with a decent video card, 19" monitor, tablet, intellimouse, 50 gig harddrive, 1ghz processor and some pr0n hehehehe (j/k)

cause think about it, it gets wet, you hide in the case, it gets cold, you hide in teh case (with a 1ghz processor, its warm in there) and if you are still cold, overclock yer comp... if you get hot, underclock yer comp!! hehe if you get hungry, eat some CHIPS!! (computer chips) and most importantly, if you are bored, there is always pr0n HEH j/k

-S (hoo!)

[Chris]

With 50gigs there better be more then just some porn, there better be ALOT of porn

Do you put salt or pepper on the chips...hmm...maybe some ketchup..

[DaveT]

80meg movies! damn! they must be some damn good stuff. All I have is a zip disk of stuff.

------------------
I have a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel....http://www.stas.net/dfb

[kig]

Actually, shelter falls into the heat category. Earth's atmosphere is a shelter etc.

Physiological needs:

Nutrition.
Reasonable environment. (not too hot/cold, not too toxic, has the right amount of oxygen, allows you to sleep every now and then, gravity within bearable limits, bearable pressure, not too radiated, blah blah blah)

[lotor]

If you don't have shelter and it starts to rain you will not have anything dry to start a fire so you will die.

I have studied a few survival books and videos and they always say most people die because they have no shelter. Not usually from lack of food and water.

You can live longer without food and water than without shelter. Bottom line.

[exo]

This conversation has gone too far

[Chris]

Your right, it has , I'll stop talking now...

few things, Earth is a shelter, grant ya that, I was talking shelter from Earth though, not shelter from Space.

I still think we can adapt, people who live in different parts of earth have different skin tone, tecture...different breathing techniques, different eating habits, because they adapt to the environment they live in. They all provide shelter (granted there) but shelter is accepted easily in any situation, and provides a lot of safety and security, etc.

But I have never seen any studies brought upon this subject and I was just wanting to get opinions...we just don't know our limits to adaptation cause we have always had shelter for a conveinence.

But I'll stop talking now, don't wanna get on anyone's "bad" side or anything, then again I could start a conversation about religion and my feelings, but wars start w/ conversations about religion

[shahar2k]

I believe there's an actual official list of things necesary for survival.... here it is from the most basic to the least (this isn't mine, it'w written as the hirarchy of human needs by the psychologist Abraham Maslow)

Self-Actualization
Esteem/self Esteem
Love and Belonging
Safty and Security
Physiological needs (the ones you'r looking for)
Air Food Water Sleep Sex

so I guess the answer of what humans need to survive, is air food water sleep sex

[JayBee]

Okay, if you're talking physiological survival (ie what your body needs to keep running) then it's food, water and oxygen (surprised nobody's actually mentioned that one yet!)

The problem is that this assumes "optimal environmental conditions". Your life basically depends on two things - fuel and environment.

Fuel is the stuff that your body takes and processes (the ones listed at the top).

Environment is what is needed to keep the body able to process the fuel. If you're in a climate like mine (Scotland - brrrr!) then you assume "heat" to be part of the environmental equation. Stick me in the middle of the sahara, and that would quickly change.

I need to keep my body in a certain temperature range (and a certain humidity range etc). Failure to do this means that it won't matter how much fuel I pump into my body.

So I don't see how you can claim "heat" as a "need", while that "shelter" is a "want". Both spring from the same "need" - optimal environmental conditions.

In summary:

- If you want to talk biology, then it's food, water and oxygen - NO heat (your body produces internal heat, but that's a result of the fuel)

- If you want to talk physically, then it's food, water, oxygen and shelter. Shelter encompasses the environmental needs by implying shelter "from non-optimal environments" - ie shelter pulls in a fire when it's chilly, a shade when it's sunny, a roof when it's rainy, and a door when it's predatory

Anyway, I think that's all I wanted to say... just I see what you're saying Chris, but you can't have heat on that list without accepting that it's a function of "Shelter" (in the math sense of function!)

And another thing...

*JayBee is grabbed by burly security guards, frogmarched off his soapbox and out of the building*



------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[Chris]

You know what my problem with maslow and the rest of the so-called "psycologists" that say this, I have read all about maslow, and in no book has there been test's on this, so it is a Theory, just like evolution is a theory. We don't know our adaptation lvls.
I guess I am thinking left-brained, need proof before I believe it, kindof like the bible, nice story, but there is a good place for it in the fiction section till it is proved, and lol, that aparently wasn't proved at the year 2000 which so many priests said

JayBee: Yes, I did mention now, shelter is needed on the environment placed in. But then again we could make that argument all day, for example if you had a job 40 miles away you NEED a car, or if you wanna cook a turkey you NEED a stove (a roasting device). So we are again basing the need on the situation, which I agreed with.
But food, water, heat isn't based on the situation. You always need food, you always need water, you always need a source of heat to keep, what you say "certain temperature range".
Either it be cold, warm, cloudy, sunny, rainy, snowy, rocky, on a island, on a boat, in a car.
Now granted some of those things you can pick out and say you need shelter for some of those, but that is picking an choosing your needs.


Ok, let me try this, what are the needs not based on certain types of environments or situations?

[shahar2k]

I may NEED air water food and sleep, but I WANT perfume, a cherry flavored coke, some fried chicken, and a hammock.... people, NEEDS cannot possibly be specific thing, you do not need an extra large poster of britney spears half naked, you want it, but what you NEED is stimulation, which triggers that perticular prefrence, lets not talk about specifics here, needs are general things, not objects (btw I hate fake plastic airheads, that spears comment... should not have been made )