[shahar2k]

well, since the first one seemed rather cool, here's my philosophical question.

Is there a god, if so what is the nature of god, and who came first ...

------------------
"Avoid needless embarrassment. Practice the correct pronunciation of your deity's name in the privacy of your own room before chanting it in public. Flash cards are often helpful." --The Evil Cultist's Hand Guide

[Count Zero]

I am an agnostic. (Though officially a Evangelic Lutheran)
I believe in a higher being/force (God, to make it more understandable), but I believe the nature of this God can never truly be understood or explained.
I think that it's rather arrogant for humans to assume they can comprehend, or much less explain/put in to words their creator. If there is a force that created all of this (directly or indirectly), how does a mere human think they can understand? I understand that it gives hope for people to believe they know what originally created them, but it IS arrogant.

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[shahar2k]

Count zero: I think just about everyone doubts their beliefs to a point, (I've said before, and I'll say it again, DOUBT EVERYTHING)
the thing is, that's why philosophy is so nice, the whole point of it is to create theories, theories which are not proven, but represent what you believe in. I personally believe that while the universe is self contained (in a diffrent way than you think) it was not created, and therefore God cannot exist.
technically I am jewish, but I don't follow the religion, I've had friends from nearly every other religion, from budhist, to strict christians, and Bahai and one of my friends, a Bahai, has said something which has stuck with me. Even if you spend your entire life studying the truth, and are successfull, discovering the absolute naked truth about everything you study. even then, you will never know the whole truth, and no one around you will know it, ever, but no one will ever be 100% wrong.

[Count Zero]

But when talking about God, we are talking religion more than actual philosophy...
And religion relies on everything EXCEPT doubt? It's based almost totally on faith, with some ground in reality. It is not considered a good thing for one to doubt/question their religion (at least in the eyes of the other believers). That is why I also have a minor dislike for religions in general. When everyone considers themselves right and everyone else wrong, without any logic needed, it's no wonder conflicts arise. I believe most religions talk about the acceptance and tolerance of others, but this just goes too much against human nature.
A short anecdote: we were having a discussion about the nature of god and faith in English class, when my girlfriend held a minor monologue about her own concept of God. She said (I'm paraphrasing here) that there is only one God/higher force, and different religions and people just see it from different angles. She had some more points about it, but I won't go into detail. After this huge explaining, rather eloquently I might add, the reply was bluntly: "I just don't believe that." This was from the "God-squad" of our class. Devout Christians who are so narrowminded in their faith, that they cannot even accept other peoples beliefs. They weren't even trying to understand or accept other peoples beliefs, just counter them and push their own beliefs on to others. It started off as a discussion, and almost became a debate.
I don't mind people who have "found" God, I actually slightly envy them; they have found a meaning and purpose which I sometimes seem to lack. BUT I do mind when these believers find it necessary to "educate" others. Tolerance is accepting others beliefs (or their rights to their own beliefs at least) regardless of your own views.
I've said enough. Or too much.

[Affected]

No, not to me.

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Chris]

Didn't we almost have this discussion around the other campfire?

Religion is politics. Look at what has become from Religion. Look at how MANY jobs have come from it. What if someone tomorrow proved that there isn't a God and Religion is totally fake?

You know what will happen, that story will never get out, he would be killed, cause it would totally crash so many people's minds and make so many people's jobs disappear.

I don't like Religion at all. It makes me sick to have people exclude other people cause they don't believe in what they believe in. That is wrong. It is a form of discrimination and doesn't make sense.

Is there a God? No. I'll just have to say that bluntly. I need proof. Look at Jesus, why was he brought to earth at that timeframe, why not 20th century or caveman time. If we go to another planet with aliens, will they believe in the same God as us?!? If they don't, guess what, a lot of people will be angry cause then it will be proven.

Now what about the Bible? LOL...nice stories, really are! Umm...shadows and bushes that just miraculously start on fire and God appears...

My question is this, why not now does he do these things, why only in THAT timeframe?!?

We have got the same situations as did Egypt back then. Slavery, etc. Where is our Moses for the new millennium?!? Well if it wasn't fiction there would be.

Now, Why was the bible written? Ask yourself this question first. Are you afraid of death? Now answer this. Would you feel better 2 minutes before you died that you were going to a better place or just nowhere?

The bible was written to make others feel better about there life and to tell others that there are miracles, just not as miraculous as in the bible, cause they are impossible to happen.

[Ragnarok]

My opinion is that there is no god. I'm atheist (is that spelled right?) and officially, nothing =D. Like Niestzche said, "people made god on their own resemblance". But I think people have needed god for a long time. Imagine yourself back in the middle ages: pain, suffering, hunger, cold. Your family dies easily and fast and your life is short and sad. If you believe in god, you are safe, if not you will probably kill yourself.
Nowadays we live better so we have time to think over this topic. We don't need religion anymore but life still has no meaning. Maybe we are doing the wrong question. Does life need to have a meaning or purpose? If you ask: why there's a universe? you will get no answer, and you still are living in it. We better solve the situation =D.

Chris, i think we all would like to know that we will continue living after our death. It's quite hard to think that when you die, you really DIE and nothing will happen before. Your brain disappears so your soul (if we have one) does.

-Ragnarok

PS: Sorry if it was too long and full of mistakes.

[Nex]

quote

Quote:

Does life need to have a meaning or purpose?

Does anything have to have a meaning?
What happens when something has a meaning?

I see it this way.. a meaning gives us motivation.
motivation gives us hope and improves our efficiency.

Its basically what every president does before he sends his soldiers into a battle. He gives them a meaning, a sense behind that all.. regardless if its right or wrong the majority of the soldiers will have a better morale, more hope and fight more efficiently because they see a cause and meaning in what they do.

meaning on the other hand is something very individual.. something can have a meaning for me and no meaning for you and vice versa.

So if the question is does LIFE have a meaning for everyone then I would say yes, just because they are still alive.
If something has no meaning to me then I have no need for it and throw it away.

I don't believe in some noble cause bestowed upon us from a godly being however that tells us like "THIS shall be your lives meaning".

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited November 12, 2000).]

[Transcendent]

Let me start off with a question, if one does not believe there is a God, why hasn't he committed suicide ? Ok, moving on,

I think there is a reason why the number of Atheists in the world is so astoundingly high. Humans, in search for the 'truth', tend to build up their own psychological "walls", some which they break down, and some which they do not. An elusive state of comprehension comes when we break down a wall which we created ourselves, or one creates for us. But are we really comprehending the truth ? Or is the turth simply a delusion, making things look as though they make sense ?

Dreams make perfect sense when you are asleep. Similarly, life makes perfect sense when you're awake. The truth's farther than you think. The human mind is not scratching the surface of an iceberg, we are scratching the air, thinking we've covered some ground.

So, to all the atheists out there, here's my grave warning, don't believe God doesn't exist simply because it "makes sense" ... because the laws of physics apply in a mechanical universe, because science and observation tell you so. Keep in mind that understanding anything is impossible. We can simply figure out how things react, not how things work. Let me raise an analogy.

Darkness is the Absence of light. Am I right ? What if Light was the absence of Darkness ? That makes sense too. Lightbulbs don't give light, they take away darkness, similar to a refrigerator, it takes away heat, it does not give coldness. Both theories are exactly the same, abide by the same rules, and therefore, it is impossible to distinguish which one is real. Silly of me to say this, don't you think ? Right. Incredibly silly. Both theories stand "scientifically accurate". There are billions of ways to decipher reality, but we stick to one school of thought. Not a problem, really, because it does not matter how reality works, it works, and that's all we care about.

So, getting to the point, atheism is simply a result of delusional comprehension, perhaps a little comforting, to know all actions are not taken account for, and there is no life after death. I'd love to live under the warmth of such a blanket, but I'll have to wake up one day, so now all I understand is that we can't understand, so we'd better believe ... because that's the only road to truth.

So that proves the existence of God. Did I make a fool of myself again ?

[Ragnarok]

I disagree. I'm studying sciencies and know what? everything has an explanation, and usually makes sense to me.
Being atheist is much harder than being a religious person. Why? Our life has a meaning we have to search and there's nothing more than this world. Religious people have their wonderful heaven, or reincarnation or an equivalent. Their lifes have a purpouse, a given finality. It's easy to live that way. Being atheist is just the opposit of comforting, you have to fight everyday with the feeling that you will day and you will no longer exist in anyway. It's quite hard, isn't it?

quote

Quote:

Let me start off with a question, if one does not believe there is a God, why hasn't he committed suicide ?

If we do so, we will be stupid. If I don't believe in god and I die, I no longer exist. I no longer can taste a good meal, see a beautiful picture, etc. That's stupid.

Now is my time for a question. Why God exists? If it does, prove it. You can't prove a negation, but you can prove an affirmation. Anyways, I don't need it, because it's just faith, there's no reason to believe in it's existence.

Maybe I went too far here. Sorry if I offended anyone =/

-Ragnarok

[Transcendent]

Hi Ragnarok,

You asked "Why God exists? If it does, prove it."

I think the essence of my (long and boring) speech was "How do you know God does not exist ? If it doesn't, prove it" and also "Some people take for granted God exists, and some take it for granted God does not. I'm just saying Atheism does not make perfect sense, as our comprehension of "sense" is very limited". Food for thought, perhaps ?

Moving on ...

Perhaps living as an Atheist might be harder. Contradicting myself again, I believe the common "evolutionary theory" of why we don't commit suicide is because we are not "programmed" to do so ... but I think we can, because of free will. It's a matter of opinion, personally, I wish death was the end. I wish I could end life now. No good has ever come out of it, perhaps there were moments of primal glee and sorrow ... but I wish these are simply chemical tricks played on my brain ...

I remember Affected had made a statement once, in a debate similar to this, "If life doesn't have a meaning in a large scale, then the large scale in life has no meaning", or something similar. I could never forget that. Now Imagine if there was a device which I could insert into my brain to trigger my temporal lobe's "happy" neurons, and I stayed in that "state" for my entire life, would it be considered "fulfilling" ?

More food for thought. I tried to keep this short, but I was carried away. Sorry.

Last of all,

You said "Maybe I went too far here. Sorry if I offended anyone =/"

Maybe, but you didn't offend me. It's a debate, not a quarrel, and I think we should speak our minds, without getting angry with one another, right ? It's the search for the truth, not a fight to outwit each other. Peace

Best wishes !

[Count Zero]

Ahh, the wonderful feeling of being an agnostic.
I can say "I honestly do NOT know why God exists or in what form" and leave it at that.
I refuse to believe in the absolute absence of God. Too nihilistic. If one relies on logic in everything, I say it's denying one of the things that makes it great to BE a human. Belief in things that are not tangible is fun!

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[Nex]

The question if there is a God does not necessarily mean if Religion is good or not, it does not even mean that you have to be religious then.

The church is something controlled by humans, and as we.. or at least I derive from the other campfire that humans have the tendency to be evil or selfish.
The whole thing of transporting something like the concept of a god is thereby corrupted and altered by the human-factor.

So if we forget all our religion and church memories and walk around for a day with open eyes and clear mind would we find an indicator for 'god'?
That would depend on your definition of what god is.

Here is mine: God is the answer to the LAST question.
When every equation is solved and all questions answered then there is NO god anymore, nothing to look forward to, nothing to be curious of or inspired by, nothing to wonder. As long as we don't know all there is to know however there will still be a god.
I am not religious, I don't go to church.. I am a science nerd - a few years back I would have said I am an atheist.

..just some fuel for the thought machine

[Speve-o-matic]

*Opinion*

Every individual has a subjective opinion on religon . . . an opinion, nothing more.

I'm waiting for God to tap me on the shoulder. Not some placebo effect induced by overexposure to social norms, drugs, obligation and the media.

But this will all change subtly in the next few years, maybe the next few days, hell I might even see Jesus floating in my television next week.

God should be absolute and innate, not a form of conditioning. But who am I to say what God should be or is? I am an opinion.

There are too many variables and factors to consider when proposing a topic like this. All that is produced is subjective crap. Every single time. It's all the same . . rehashed and reworked. I've seen it all before, only it's been better written.

Many different ideas are covered in psychology, philosophy, semiology, mathematics, etc etc. It all depends on what you have been exposed to. Exposed being the key word.

*End Opinion*

- Steve

Just remembered:

My uncle wrote a very interesting and informative book relating to this topic, it's available for free at www.fff.co.za


[This message has been edited by Speve-o-matic (edited November 12, 2000).]

[shahar2k]

I'll start off saying this, If you cannot prove something exists, then there is also no way you can prove something does not exist. meaning that if you don't know specifically what something is, where it is and what it does, then you cannot prove that it isn't. that's what I run my life by.

My proof that God exists: (not what you think)

The very essence of intelligence for people has been the ability of people to look at an object, and seperate it into its components, things such as a rock, being composed of the concepts of "hard" "heavy" and "massive" as well as colors, smells sounds and so on. in your mind, everything is seperated into basic concepts. This starts when we are born (we establish all the basic concepts, things like basic sounds, people's faces being subdivided into parts, and so on, we start taking the universe as a whole slowly dividing that whole into parts our mind can process)

As a result of this cognative process people's understanding except when very young is always impared. try and get a straight answer as to what composes a person and you'll get things like "good" "intelligent" "pretty" "funny", or even concrete concepts like a certain weight range, height, genetic code, or what ever, but these people will not be able to define for you what "thoughtfullness" or "intelligence" is in simpler terms because those ARE their simple terms, they are the sum of our experiences with those terms, when you say intelligent you don't get simpler Ideas you get a bunch of experiences that you define by that term, when you think "tall" you think distance, from a point, vertically, take "distance" and it is the amount of units between two "points"
we can keep simplifying like this for ever. but we always run into a limit of understanding, it's hard for us to define a "unit" in simpler terms... that's what I like to call a Prime term.

A prime term is one which we use to understand all others. much like prime numbers it can only be defined using itself... and one? now taking math as a source, since all numbers can be defined using prime numbers and ONE, and ONE can only be defined by itself... (catching on?)

therefore taking life, and it's prime definitions, you could say that all Ideas can be defined using prime Ideas, and one central Idea. therefore, that Idea whatever it is, is called by us "GOD"

now, here's what I dont like. I see a lot of people trying to understand god trying to define god.... and spreading their word. God is not defineable, it's not something that you can understand, it's NOT a being, it's NOT concious, it just defines all other concepts out there, if it was any of those things, then it wouldn't be god. it would be something else, but not god. that is why I don't consider myself religious, just rational when I say there is a god, but NO PERSON HAS FOUND WHAT GOD IS, AND NO ONE WILL.

----------------------------------------------------------

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller

[Jezebel]

Count Zero - It's amazing, you think almost exactly the same way I do! I was just having this same discussion with a friend the other day and for the first time in the 8 years we've been friends, she seemed to understand my perspective. I believe in something, I don't know what. Perhaps our creator is a tangible being that we are too small to see? Maybe we came from faery dust? Maybe we're all inside the Matrix! There's absolutely no way to know, so I stand her waiting to see what happens next.

Ragnarok - I used to be atheist but I am now agnostic. Mainly because I found I couldn't answer my own questions. You say to prove God exists but I ask you to prove that he/she doesn't. And here's the almighty question that so many people want to know the answer to: How did we get here? Where did everything start from? It had to start somewhere, right?

[shahar2k]

just a mini reply...
"Darkness is the Absence of light. Am I right ? What if Light was the absence of Darkness ? That makes sense too."

uhm... dosn't make sense buddy, Light is a release of photons and wave energy, darkness is the absence of that,
heat on the other hand is reletive, it is the energy state of molecules, but there is no cold, just above and below body temp... (coldest it gets is absolute zero is no movement on the atomic level, nothing colder than that)

this has been a word from the science nerdom comittee

[Transcendent]

Nex and shahar2k,

Both your arguments are very unique, and pehaps convincing. There is a pitfall, though, in both arguments, because both of you refer to god as a metaphorical entity, (for example, "All came from nothing, therfore nothing is god".) by fitting him in the right place in creation.

In this approach, we create God, as we know him as the fundimental unit of reality. But is that really god ? Is there life after death ? Is there Judgment ? Is there free will ?

And to answer your questions on darkness and light, can I also say that darkness is made of photons and waves ? Think about it. It just involves a major reversal in mindset. Neither can ever be proven true, because our comprehention is only limited to observation, therefore is futile.

[Ragnarok]

Trascendent, your idea of darkness is not real. We also can think about gravity being the repulsion of space instead of the atraction of earth, but doesn't makes sense.

Our knowledge is not only from observation but also from reason (correct word?). And I think the way science proves its theories is perfect: someone spends a lot of time observing something or making a lot of maths. He/she gets to a conclusion and posts it. Then, everybody that thinks it might be wrong make an experiment, more maths, and all they can to see if the theory is wrong somewhere. Therefore, if nobody sees nothing wrong in many time, then it's the best description we have of reality. And science never says their theories are absolute, many times they have to correct something, but usually the general idea remains.

Do you want to know why I don't think in God? At least, I don't think in a god that is watching us. Look at the universe: huge. Whenever I think in the size one human being is in this universe, we are nothing, absolutly nothing. There are a lot of things we don't know and we actually can't know, but I think god in that way doesn't exists.

quote

Quote:

Is there free will ?

Do you think that we need a god in order of having free will? I don't . We are nothing but a casuality, azar, casualidad. We are some kind of accident, so life is.

(It's 7:48 a.m, I have a math's exam and it's too soon. )

-Ragnarok

[Chris]

quote

Quote:

"How do you know God does not exist ? If it doesn't, prove it"

Ok, I will. Last time I went to church I asked the priest "Where is God". He tells me He is everywhere.

Now look around you. Do you see, hear, touch, taste, or smell him? No you don't. That is how we prove things, by a sence of a part of those 5 things (and no not the 6th sence either )

How do you know there is air, you can feel it, in some cases smell it, so there is air, it is proven.

quote

Quote:

Darkness is the Absence of light. Am I right ? What if Light was the absence of Darkness ?

What's your point? Yes either way is correct cause both can be proven. I don't understand what this has to do with this discussion though.

quote

Quote:

so we'd better believe ... because that's the only road to truth.

That sounds really hokey, I'm sorry but that might be just me. The truth is what is proven, not the belief of the truth. If it was proven tomorrow that there wasn't a god, would you believe that? We'd better, cause that would be the truth cause it was proven.

quote

Quote:

Does anything have to have a meaning?

Yes Everything has a meaning and purpose. Name something that doesn't and I'll call you God. Now what that meaning is, depends on what that 'anything' does.

quote

Quote:

Belief in things that are not tangible is fun!

It can be, but Religion is a belief in discriminating others. And that isn't fun (to be discriminated). To make people feel lower then you just cause they don't believe in someone else is sad and a weak way to live and push blame.

I mean look at all these past wars, if there wasn't ANY religion a lot more people would be alive today. Religion is an evil concept, a way to control a mass amount of people.

I moved to a small town in 9th grade HS, I didn't go to church every sunday, and there was one right across the street. I wasn't accepted in that community (town) very well. That to me is a sad way of life, to not learn from other people is stupid. We need to learn from each other and religious groups don't do that, they just learn from within their group.

People believe in it, cause the comfort they get from it. People are afraid of death, simple as that. The comfort of going somewhere after death is very powerful.

[Ragnarok]

The first part of the exam went well, now I have another hour.

Gimme good luck!

-Ragnarok

PD:After high school, I will post something related with the topic, promised

[shahar2k]

transcendant: can I prove that darkness exists, as a seprate object, no, can I prove it dosn't exist? it's impossible to prove something dosn't exist, but I can prove light exists as there are particles which create light, they colide with our light receptors sending selectical signals to our brains to tell us there's light there, if you think of darkness as an "ether" or "liquid" which fills the areas void of photons, than yes darkness exists, but it would make no sense, and be a moot point, we cannot prove or disprove the nature of darkness, but it does not define light, it is defined BY light. just as 0 is defined by the lack of 1.
the thing is, (Ragnarock too...) my definition of god, is not as a creator, but as a concept above, and whithin all concepts. much like the 1 in mathematics. thing is, once you start atributing a conciousness with this concept. you've distorted it's purity.

As for life after death, and the possibility of retribution for actions on earth. Heaven and such... well those are not a question of god, but a question of the soul, that thing that humans believe continues living after our physical bodies die. This as opposed to god, is a concept I believe is defineable, and has not yet been truly discovered. and I do believe something lives on after we die. call my hopefull, however I don't believe that any of our actions here in life affect where we go when we die, but they do stay in our ... memories...

I am entirely unsure of what happens once we die though, I have to say I've never actually experienced dieing and I've also never had anyone close to me die in my presence. it's a subject I think should not be dismissed though.

anyways it's 3:30 AM the baldurs gate 2 demo crashed and I'm going to sleep.

[Count Zero]

Jezebel, yay! I'm not alone in my belief!
Let's form a cult and start brainwashing people and robbing them of their money!
Nah, but it's cool to know that there are like-minded people around.

Chris, you're generalizing. You can't say that "because a bunch of narrowminded Christian did this and this, ALL religions must be like that". The world doesn't work like that...

[Chris]

So what religion doesn't exclude someone else that doesn't believe in it, one way form or matter?

I wasn't speaking in just christians, Religion in general is like that.

[shahar2k]

From what I've heard, the Bahai Feith dosn't exclude other religions... only person I know is my friend here, and NUR on the Art board

[Nex]

Transcendent:

quote

Quote:

In this approach, we create God, as we know him as the fundimental unit of reality.

Yes I think of 'god' to be the fundamental unit. Like the energy that keeps the universe running and molecules moving.
No supernatural being, no higher intelligence, just 'the force' if you will.

[Spitfire]

I hope God exists. That way we at least have �ne asshole to blame.

Seriously though. In the bible it says 2 things : God is omnipotent, and god loves all of his children. In many countries, lots of children die from war or famine. Why does this happen? Does god let them die? cause in that case he is not all-loving. Or isnt he capable of helping them? cause in that case he isnt omnipotent. Just wonderin�.

[Chris]

You know what is really funny Spitfire, the bible wasn't written in one day, it was scattered for years with writtings. And people asked that same question back then, so the first part of the bible says that, then later it says "Well, he is only all-loving if you have faith" the 'if' part was added See, that is why the bible is messed up, it is so hypicritical to itself that is has an escuse to everything it writes about.

[Spitfire]

Y�know what i think?

I dont tink the bible is a guide or a prophecy, i think it is a history. I think it�s all allready happened. From genesis to revelations.

[Ragnarok]

Then I guess we were made out of mud and dinosaurs never existed, as well as all the period when ice covered earth or when it was only lava... bilbe is a good book if you take it as literature, but is not a book of facts or a guide book I will accept.