[lotor]

After looking through some of the arcives and at the art work in this forum I decided to look at the king of fantasy art work Frank Frazetta's gallery of work and something occured to me. Not enough artist today know enough of the basics. Everyone on this forum seem so preoccupied with the technology that they don't even bother to learn the basic foundation skills.
...YOu will never make a good peice with technology alone. YOu have to have the basic drawing and painting skills to even start to make a successful peice of art.
Not only drawing and painting but designing the peice and layout is also just as important as drawing and painting.
....The computer is just a tool, just as oil paint, charcoal, or a pencil are just tools. These tools don't make a good peice of art but the basics do.....oh yea and hard work helps too.
....Peace out

[Binke]

duh

------------------
http://binke.gamesquad.net

[kos.mandis]

Maybe not, but I'm sure most could make a good piece

[EyeFool]

lotor, you are a genious! How do you do it?

[Funfetus]

Lotor -- You're right, of course. But I wouldn't go so far as to say EVERYONE on this forum seems preoccupied with technology.

Affected -- many. Many, many. But that doesn't make it any less true.

Nori -- Try http://www.turnoffyourcomputerandgotothelocallibrary.com.

------------------
Funfetus
iCE VGA Division
http://www.funhousedigital.com

[Muzman]

actually I find it kindof annoying when someone comes in and spouts off the obvious.
One of the penny arcade guys said the same thing ages ago.
Who are they talking to? all of us?
Those of us who are begginers or hacks like me are usually aware of how long it takes and what we need to know. That's why we're here isn't it?
makes this kind of message look like a waste of keystrokes

[Mozeman]

I disagree with those who disagree with Lotor and I totally agree with Lotor.

I don't think it can be said enough. Devote the bandwidth to repeating it as many times as possible. Why? Because people still don't listen. Some people may give back the lip service, "yes, we know, learn the basics," nod, nod, nod, but then they sit at their computer and hack away in Photoshop or Painter learning all the wrong things.

Lotor's point is that you shouldn't be HERE learning, you should be out there learning. Grab your pencil and sketch pad and go out and draw LIFE!

Then you come back to these wise and learned sages for pointers. But it's a waste of time and an insult to guys like Mullins when you ask them "How can I paint like you in 6 easy steps?"

Oops. Sorry to rant. If you can't tell, I too have had this conversation before.



------------------
Mozeman
************************
[email protected]
************************

[Muzman]

After telling us the best way to learn is by doing you say that sitting in front of the pc and hacking away is going to teach you the wrong things. Hmmmm, I dunno somehow.
There's this strangely romanticised view of sitting in the park sketching (or whatever) as the golden path to being good. Well, I don't think it is. I don't think it matters where you sit or what you use, you can still become very adept at making the same mistakes over and over. What irons out mistakes (with practice, of course) is being around other people who do the same thing and can point out things you might have missed or are glossing over in your mind.
ie: here and places like it.

[Mozeman]

I don't think life drawing is the golden path to being good, but it is the most basic and necessary starting point. There are things that you learn from life drawing that you can't learn from books, boards, or photographs. It teaches you how to observe, it teaches you what to look for and how to think 3-dimensionally. And as an animator, it teaches you movement and timing.

ALL of the artists I know who are any good have learned this way, even the purely digital ones. I'm not going to argue with decades of methodology when the results speak for themselves.

I do agree, however, that sketching from life all by itself does little good with no guidance. That's what workshops and classes are for, and the presence of an instructor or mentor is vital in that situation. But the feedback must by dynamic and immediate, something not yet offered via the PC.

------------------
Mozeman
************************
[email protected]
************************

[Muzman]

indeed.
given all that I think it's a tad presumptuous for folk to show up on occasion and glibly describe why everyone else sucks (not reffering to you Moze).
What do they expect people to do? Go away and not come back until they are Frazetta?
It's a bit rich.
Valid practices are one thing, but they get mentioned quite a lot anyway, implicitly or otherwise.

[synj]

"duh" said me to you, lotor.

-synj www.synj.net
Ridiculously good stuff.

[spooge demon]

Lotor, I am duly chastised. I will change my evil ways.

( I am not being a smart ass. promise)

[lotor]

blah blah blah
all I hear is a lot of talking about how many times you've heard this before, yet let me tell you something girls. If you are one of those enlightened artists that actually do pay attention to the basics then don't even bother to read this because you obviously know everything already.
YOu know you don't have to read and reply to everything you read on this forum. Maybe, just maybe I was writting to the people less experienced then those of you writing "duh" and other sissy snotnosed remarks.
And another thing, if this is so obvious and simple for everyone why do I still see so many people making the same mistakes. This is a forum is it not? Why is it so bad that i'm trying to help someone so art? If you already know about the basics let me just say I DON'T F***ING CARE.
So don't comment if its not written to you.
It shouldn't take a genius to tell you that.

[Synax]

Well 'almighty and king' lotor, since you seem to know everything, how about you show us some of your work, and I'm sure we'll be able to pick out errors, then we can point a finger and laugh at you for sounding like an idiot...

--Synax

[lotor]

OH so now its a little contest
piss off

[PaK-RaT]

Loter:

i see some inconsistancies here...

i think you were shooting your 'holier then thou' mouth off, YES YOU ARE RIGHT, but i must say the delivery system of you're knowledge really sucks very very much. saying

"Everyone on this forum seem so preoccupied with the technology"

and then:

"Maybe, just maybe I was writting to the people less experienced"

u know "I" think you should choose ypur words more carefully. And when you relaise you are wrong maybe you should fess up to it instead of saying shit like "piss off"

i have responded to this thread rather harshly and not been 'nice' about it cuz i think u need a good kick in the ass.

Yes you need the basics, yes you need to do more then just read tutorials and practice digital painting. But maybe this is just a hobby for some of these guys? (without maybe tryna help...which i didnt see any)

if u tried to help, maybe uploaded some examples of what direction you were suggesting, or given us some basics on composition, basic life drawing fundamentals, or use words like "i beleieve" or, "maybe you guys should think about.." instead of insulting everyone, calling us girls, and typing "blah blah blah" when people respond to u? you were abraisive, rude, coppin' a fuckin additude problem aaaaaand offered no help! What the FUCK was the point of you're gandious message? all i see is a glorified version of "i can see your mistakes, u guys suck, and you're wasting your time here talking instead of doing"

i mean honestly, what on earth is the point of scolding a forum full of digital painters?
what kind of response were u expecting?

------------------
2D Artist/Founder www.3dpalette.com

[This message has been edited by PaK-RaT (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Frost]

Hey lotor,

Well, it seems some people, like myself, have found your message a little offensive -- because art, is very subjective, and everyone has his preferences, likes/dislikes and goals.

Personally, I never took art classes and don't have any traditional art training, and surely someone can spot that easily in my paintings. However, I am decent at drawing, and I always had a fascination for things technical -- learning the techniques of art, and mostly lighting and geometry is something I like doing, and am looking to perfect myself into.

I do love Boris, Frazetta, etc paintings for instance, I admire them, but they are very technical, possibly more than artistic. The artistic side of these paintings deals in my oppinion with the exaggeration of the colors and how the tones are used to complement, to cheat the image into being more interesting and get better response from the audience than a 'simple' picture would. Again, one could easily confuse that as being technical.

Art is entirely subjective. Some love red canvases with a blue square in the center of it, others like deep technical and complexe renditions of reality -- it's up to us to respect each other's goals and likings as "artists".

I am not an "artist" in the sense that I do "artistic" work, but what other word would you put to someone like me? I have a strange taste in 'art'. Realism fascinates me. I almost prefer a picture an industrial-grey highway the way it is in real life, than a overly "beautiful" artistically enhanced picture of a naked girl in the blue night sky.

Just my view. Respect, and be respected.

cheers.
frost.

( I hope this was pertinent, hehe, I'm pretty damn tired. =)

[This message has been edited by Frost (edited May 07, 2000).]

[amnesia]

Lotor you punk. I'm not a girl or a sissy.

All you guys that are knocking Lotor for not trying to help. I see that he has tried to help people in a few other posts (well at least one but I'm sure they'll be more as he seems to know what he is talking about).

I think something simaler to Lotors point is that some people draw a pic then send it to this board for other people to tell them what they did wrong. Now thats fine and dandy except when those people rely soley on that help and don't try to learn it by themselves. Those people are just looking for an easy path to good pics.

------------------
,.-="`AmnesiA`"=-.,

[kos.mandis]

hmmm, what would Brian Boitano do?

[lotor]

Well this has not gone as I had planned it today.
To anyone that I offended I humbly appologize. I did make some very rude remarks in the heat of the moment and hope that I don't get kicked off of this forum for those comments I made.
I think it was Pakrat that pointed out the FACT that I did make some mistakes in my first post about saying "everyone" was doing the things I was commenting on. I AM SORRY and I will try to not be so careless.
My intention was not to sound magnanimous with my first post just trying to help. I will try to choose my words more carefully.

I again am sorry about my rude comments. I did feel bad about making them.

To the person that requested I put up some of my own pieces of art I will as soon as possible.I cannot because I live at home and only have e-mail on our PC and not on my MAC yet.

I tutor a young boy in art and I really do enjoy helping people get better at painting or drawing. Two things that I've lucky enough to do.

I deserved those comments and hope that anything I say in the future will help and not anger anyone else.

Peace out

[AliasMoze]

Thought I'd jump on the bandwagon and chime in.
Lotor, I think people here think that you're condecscending to them. Everyone else, maybe Lotor is talking to the beginners.

I totally, 100% agree with Lotor. Myself as an example: I've trained in drawing...ALOT. Drawing from life is the single most important activity, if one wants to learn to draw correctly. True, some people are quite good and have never ever even seen a live model. However, for practical purposes, all masters have drawn extensively from life. Of course, if "mastery" is not your goal, then that's cool too.
Now I'm trying to learn to paint. Again, what do all the masters say? I've asked for help from at least three great painters, and they all say "draw from life." Nobody wants to hear this, including me, but I realize now that I have to simply paint my brains out if I'm going to learn anything. That means I have to give up thousands of hours to painting. That's the price, man.
So, whether you want to draw or paint, there are things you'll learn from this that you can't learn anywhere else. That's a fact.

Again, I am certainly not trying to offend anyone. Mozeman echos this feeling, and --trust me-- you should listen to him.

[Affected]

I guess we have some FAQ fodder here...

Q:How do I become a great artist overnight? What tutorials should I do?
A: You won't, and tutorials ain't it. Practice, my friend, practice.

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[spooge demon]

No problem here. I really wasn't being a smart ass. I agree with what you said, but the way you said sounded a bit off.

Here's a crappy picture to show i was serious about needing basics

[synj]

hehe craig thats some nice work. reminds me of lord of the rings - am i right?

lotor, i agree with your point as well but you seem to be pointing fingers at way too big of an experienced crowd here. i hope the next time you blink your eyes won't open back up for like 2 minutes and you freak out and take a pee on the nice leather seat.

-synj www.synj.net
Ridiculously good stuff.

[failsafe]

looking to find craig's cat in the picture, blended at a low opacity.... this definitly shows the beginners out there what bad thing will happen if they don't pay attention to basics... *get's trampled by newbies as they throw basics away left and right in an attempt to be like the misguided mr mullins*

[This message has been edited by failsafe (edited May 07, 2000).]

[AliasMoze]

Wow. Frazetta-inspired perhaps? Great image.
Hey, Spooge, did you do any work on "Gladiator"? I thought I saw some 2D mattes that had your name all over 'em.

[nori]

that's great lotor. Maybe you can provide a url of a painting guide for me so I can learn the basics?

[Affected]

How many times has this subject been touched on in one way or another?

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[amnesia]

Hey Craig even if you did do some mattes for the Gladiator I don't think you should be painting your name all over them...


and correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you do that picture as an example of bad basics? Everybody is praising it. Deary me.
Although I found the sun and the colours and the face nice to look at, if you look at it for a while longer you realise the whole thing together is way off. All lopsided and shite.

Oh well.



------------------
,.-="`AmnesiA`"=-.,

[Hurri-cane]

of course u need the basics...digital art is just a tool. if u dont know the basics, u cant do a great looking pic...(if u cant stand, u cant walk)



------------------

-H-U-R-R-I-C-A-N-E-
http://www.geocities.com/hurri_cane_1999/
-------------------------