[failsafe]

as indicated in the subject line, this msg is about the barrage of newbie's and their questions in this forum lately. Hopefully it will inform newbies somewhat.

I'm not new to digital art, but I am new to this forrum, so when I joined there was a certain period of "lurking". during which I read posts and obtained as much info as possible ie (using search function, looking for overly asked questions, who to watch out for etc... there is alot to be learned before you even ask your first question. Basically you should educate yourself to the point where you think you know everything there is to know, and at that point post your first question and come to the realization that you know nothing, but understand your on the right track.

Also it is very important to understand that you might not get the feedback your looking for. A lot of people have gotten to their position by drawing something, sitting back, realizing it sucks, seeing what they could improve and starting again, and that while constructive feedback is great to head you in the right direction, the best learning tool seems to be trial an error and experimentation.
the cliche newbie question is "how do i do cool images in "x" program. which you will never get an answer for. Why? because for someone who has gotten to the point where they can produce "cool" images to summarize. an answer might entail "read everything you can about that medium, find examples, tutorials,try it out and experiment, go through years of learning and/or school, make mistakes and learn from them then do it over and over again until your stuff looks good.

I hope this message isn't seeming harsh to those who are new. With the internet being so prominent today, it opens up a vast learning resource to those who are starting, this is great, however it has a downside. It seems that people believe what once took years of hard work to achieve will now only take weeks because they have this huge resource pool, and if they are haveing even the littlest bit of trouble they'll just ask. While this does seem harmless at first it tends to lead to 512 messages about wacom tablets or too many "first image" posts. All because this "newbie" failed to take the time to educate themselves about the kind of questions they should ask or where they might find the answers.

I for one would not have posted my first digital pic. why you ask. not for the reason that it isn't good (first pictures are not meant to be works of art) the reason that I wouldn't post it is because I believe I can still learn from myself before I ask for the input of others. does this make sense? I think you have so much to learn from exploration and experimentation before you post a pic that it should be your 10th or maybe even 50th digital pic before you begin posting to the forum.

wow, holy rant this message is just meant to be a personal opinion and could go on for a bit still but I'm interested in what everyone else thinks in regard to this.

[coconutmonkey]

well all i can say is... right on! good post

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Its all fun and games til someone gets poked in the eye then its twice as fun watching them squirm

[Tinusch]

When exactly did this forum suddenly turn into a daycare, anyway? Every single day, there's more and more pointless questions, either non-digital-art related or just something that's been answered 5,000 times already. If it's not a question, it's just a stupid outburst or immature remark. And you can't say one wrong thing without inciting a flamewar. I can't stand it.

[8105]

I am so intrigued by your post. makes me think about my first post and that I shoulda looked and read ALOT more than I did.
also it gets me thinking about what I am to draw in the future...and NOT to post it ...rather stick it on my WebPage and let anyone who wanders onto it, to take a gander.
Rather than burdening someone with a telco modem to waste thier time to look at MY chicken scratch I call ART.

Right on brutha.

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http://www.clanlogo.com

[Lemur-X]

The actions and words of some of the "Members" here are the exact reason why I rarely ever post on this board.......I tend to lurk. I have a life........so when I do post pics.....people tend to treat me like a fucking child.
The last 2 pics I did, were basically shot down as tracings w/o any evidence to back them up.....and when I asked one of the accusors the only reasoning they gave me was "I haven't seen you before. How could you have done this."
This was all a while ago. Quite a while ago. Before the board was huge. Hell, I was one of it's first members....but I don't know if I'm going to post here much anymore. Attitudes seem to be quickly charging over to the "Holier than thou" setting in a few people's heads.....and it's making it shit to look at, and probably a big discouragement for the majority of any person coming here looking for help or hints.
Fuck. I've seen some people flame newcomers who were looking for a way to better themselves and their artwork, while the person bashing them has done little to contribute to this board, other than post threads that belong in the 'Random Musings' board.
Everyone was new to this once. Hell. I've done, what, 4 pics digitally.........and I'm making progress....slow progress....most likely due to the lack of a helpful board to turn to for criticism/help.....
And it's true some people that wander through here are idiots...and ask dumb questions...but does it really take 49 F-bombs and a deathwish upon their mother to tell them to think out their postings better ahead of time? I think not.
I'm ranting............but I do believe this board was something else, until certain people got the notion that it was for those who were established......what a fucking shame.
Someone post a beginner's FAQ before this board becomes yet another defunct flame-laden cesspool...

--Lemur-X -- ICQ 6327601

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Enter the Lemur......

[jasonN]

I still post here, but I did stop posting for about a month when the wave of newbies began, mostly because of the reasons mentioned above. And I agree with Lemur-X, the board definetely has changed a lot since last year. So many names disappearing...

But yeah...Lemur pretty much said it all....



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-Jason :)

JasonArt

ICQ: 24680551

[kurisu]

It saddens me when a member loses interest for any reason.

As a community, we have the power to change a lot of what we're not happy with.

I agree a FAQ should be created - soon. This leaves 2 questions:

1. What to put in it?
(started list here)

...and once answered...

2. Who will make it?

Action can change things for the better.

-k

[This message has been edited by kurisu (edited March 30, 2000).]

[Frost]

Lemur; Well, I really don't think anyone should be cruel to someone starting out, and whoever did this to you was not very nice.

If you hear me bitch (like I've been doing a lot of lately) is because of the following; I first joined this board because it was the greatest thing around with limited and mature posts, with many members who knew their stuff.

If you take a look at what it is today, you'd feel as though some art teacher in grade school gave the url of this board to his class and said "go there, they'll teach you all you need to know", without any guidance.

Maybe I am being wrong by saying this, but this forum is no longer the cool refuge for great digital artists I thought I first found, but more like an average message-based IRC forum, and the only thing missing would be a forum for Quake3/UT and the likes.

I would like to apologize for my behaviour as of late, but it just drives me insane at times reading some of the posts (my blood pressure rises just THINKING about it).

I'm a b*tch.
frost.

[Loki]

Geat post failsafe! Maybe that one should go in a FAQ as intro.
Lemur: yes. you're right. I guilty myself of flaming - but, I usually only get my torch out when the posts are not related - maybe because I feel they're disrespectul (like the "played with the adobe ...") of the people that want to have a serious conversation. On the other hand, I should be mature enough to just ignore posts like that (something I usually preach) - but I'm kind of weak that way.
I promise to improve myself. Also - let's get a FAQ up and running - I can host it if you guys want. I don't have too much time to assemble it though. And a FAQ should end all this mayhem (or at least the tablet and 'how do I use PS' stuff).

[Joachim]

I agree both what failsafe said and lemur-x...
I don't like that paople post to post without a fairly ok reason...because if you look at the threads, 80% is more or less none relative to the the topic "digital art"...but still, as long as it is for fun or to make an interessting discussion I like it. But, topics like "lokis icq" (just to give a good example ) and many others really don't make sense. And, offcourse it's just to ignore these, but when there's an overflood of stupid threads it gets rather difficult to spot the good ones, so you'll easily get bored before you've actually found something interessting (atleast I do).
But, I think flame wars are absolutely the wrong way to solve things like this..A simple answer from one or two, so that the thread will fall down on the list and disappear is a lot better. Also, offcourse a FAQ.. . I think these flamewars are in every way so childish and a total waste of time. Also, it is really sad that so many nice people disappears from the forum because of some peoples eager to turn this whole place into a stupid sope opera. I would also think that artists that are not being flamed, but views all the flamewars and "stupid" threads actuall don't dare or bother to post any more. So, in so many words....make a faq and behave good



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Joachim
web: http://home.sol.no/~jbarrum/

[Jess]

Well... Yeah. I try not to concern myself with petty issues.. but sometimes I just get so bored... And this has been the reason why I stopped reading most of the posts on here, because

1. there's way too many stupid questions... posted over and over again.. and 2. there's way too many stupid questions... posted over and over again..

Oh yeah.. and I miss those interesting conversations we used to have here...
____________________________________________

Oh hey Lemur, how is Flash comming along for you? Do you like it?

(Sorry... off the topic quite a bit)

[Muzman]

She's trying to derail the thread! Guards!Seize her! (attempted humour)

Anyway, let us turn this into the FAQ thread. (some may recall I tried to start one a while ago; but a bunch of Newbies told me to be quiet)
Given the fact that there are a lot of questions that are essentially the same, perhaps we don't need an FAQ but a Primer on the basics of graphics and posting around here.
What say you all?

rsvp

[kurisu]

Muzman, didn't see your thread before, sorry...

I recommend adding to the 'FAQ' Thread just posted.

The title of this thread may not attract people who could contribute - so I opted to make a new thread for clarity...)

-k

[Lemur-X]

Loki N' Frost : Don't worry about it. This was happening long before you guys even showed up. Heh. I jsut don't want to see it progress any further, or for the older members to condition newer people to be so harsh etc.

--Lemur-X

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Enter the Lemur......

[neutral?]

i think you should give us a chance - the general attitude of late has been to disregard all newbies when in fact a little encouragement is what makes development possible. You might not think we are worth the effort, and I for one know that my work is, in comparison to some of the artists here, absolutely bottom-of-the-barrel.

but that's not to say i'm not going to improve, in time. the way in which some members have responded to newbies is totally unfair, and certainly gives out a bad representation of this forum. I do agree, the standard has dropped in the past few weeks. And yes, I know how you feel about this, as a "hardcore" gamer I've seen my own hobby taken over by too many casual people who have little respect for the industry.

All I am saying here is that we need a chance to develop, and without such a potentially rich environment as this we have less hope of reaching the standard witnessed in the works of Loki, Joachim et al.

thanks.



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Dan | neutral?
:: the digital thatre ::

[Jess]

But keep in mind of those who are like "Freedom of speach" and no one can tell me what I should or shouldn't do.. types. Because rule books tend to set them off. I'ld hate to see another flame thread... do you know how annoying it is to be a member to what is supposed to be an inteligent, mature forum... go there to read up on interesting conversation... and find nothing but imature, grade school level, flames and sarcastic remarks?

Oh well, no bother.

oh yeah, PS where are those guards gonna take me? cuz now I'm curious.