[nova]

It's a sad fact that these days one rarely comes across women gamers or digital artists. As a result, I feel a little alone in the world I'm wondering what you all think about this topic, or why it's true. I personally see plenty of reasons why women are not inclined to producing computer graphics, or be seen playing computer games.. but I'd like to know of any ideas at all on what YOU might think. Maybe I'll recieve some insight.




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* * * ** Nova
ICQ: 54240962

[Frost]

I'm already surprised that there are as many girls on this board. Women are just a rare in this field -- I guess most have little interest for sitting down in front of a monitor all day, but instead want to do more with themselves -- attending to more concrete things in real life.

frost.

[Nocturnal]

Lara Croft... Mmmmmmm

[dennison]

that is not true, nova.. i have a few friends irl who do actively participate in digital art, webdesigning, gaming, etc.. i guess it just takes time and interest

[yesniyah]

Probably if we men were more openminded about our fairer artist/gamers we would have more of them in the field. A friend of mine had a girlfriend who could kick his assin Tekken (beat me sometimes too) and the bastard dumped her!
I have a friend who is an artist and it's fun when our styles combine. (teddy bears , bulletholes, blood, knives etc)

On behalf of me myself and I (and another guys who feel this way) Will more girls PLEASE enter this feild?
that's enough ranting now, gotta go fragg somebody...

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Live long, stay hard, keep juggling, learn how to block eddy and frag anything that moves!!!

http://www.redrival.com/yesniyah
ICQ #50110302

[kurisu]

Hi Nova

My thoughts...

Way back when we were hunched, hairy and haggard, 'men' and 'women' had simple social roles in what was a 'primitive' society. Since women could give birth and were biologically attached to their newborn, they cared for the young throughout its childhood. While thus occupied, it was difficult to feed both themselves and their young. That's where the males came in (other than getting the women pregnant). Men did not (and still don't - but that may change!) have to go through the trials of pregnancy, and instead, could find food and protect against predators. This defined the sex culture where woman exercised care and gentleness, while men used physical force to provide for the female who cared for the young. And all of this designed to propagate the race (see Sanga's thread where I go off on selfishness).
To me, this is where the fundamental difference between men and women started. Over time, societies developed and accentuated differences between men and women. Social ideals of and rules for what a 'lady' and a 'gentleman' should look, act and perform like evolved to further distinguish the sexes.
Defining 'difference' is how any social system develops, I think, and with it, can come quite a cost. Take racial discrimination, for example... one race fears its own inadequacy and is threatened by another race - but presents that fear by advocating and preying upon real or imagined deficiencies in the other race - ie, it isn't smart enough, it isn't fair enough, it isn't <fill in the blank>.
Combining these concepts, it is clear to me why women have had such hardships. They have had to prove to men that they are, in fact, just as competent. But old habits die hard... and those who feel threatened by 'change' and fear their own inadequacy, resist the idea that women can do it just as well as men (if not better).
So, now I, at least, have a picture of a world in which things are changing, some faster than others. Women, for sure, have moved closer to gaining the opportunity, respect and admiration they so deserve... but still must endure more hurdles to progress.
The videogame industry was started by a bunch of geek men. Games were made to entertain the creators at first, and grew to a money-making venture. Whereas women, in my opinion, tend to make the best of a situation, working in harmony with their surroundings, men, I think, tend to 'not be satisfied' and want to change things... so technology, as an example, changed and progressed.
The videogame industry grew, and graphics got closer to realism. The consumers were still mostly men. And more consumers equaled more men, so more games were made for men (ie, Laura Croft). Practically the only way a women could work in the field producing would be to make games by men, for men (for the most part). That meant they basically had to act like, get the respect of, and create like a man.
There were women, here and there, who managed to 'get in' to the field. But, the battle was (and still is) difficult. There are still men who resent a woman for showing (or even trying to show) she's an equal (or better). This is only fear, that turns to anger. I wish those types luck with inner strength...
A big reason there are fewer women gamers, I think, is similar to what Frost wrote. Women tend to be more social creatures, while men tend to be more solitary. Games are the perfect addiction for a solitary person. Another reason, applying some of the above theories, is that the fact that 'videogames' have simply been perceived as 'male' activities (again, because of games like TombRaider).
As our world culture develops, and communication increases, walls like these have and will continue to change - and at a faster rate, I think. The World Wide Web is one of the vehicles that has and shall continue to help facilitate this. No longer does it take so much time to get messages to people - it used be by smoke signals or stagecoach letters, or one-to-one telephone calls, and now it's also the internet...
So, in my opinion, cultural expectations have kept women out of games. Thank goodness that the rules that once remained unquestioned, have and will continue to be explored and modified to suite a (hopefully) more equal atmosphere for all! And not just in games - and not just with women!

*phew*

-k

[Dawn_Rising Sun]

Im a girl..... literally.. I am only 16. I am veery new at this stuff... I am a gamer, and I plan to be a digital artist (for fun) and I am internin at a place to learn 3d animation for movies...... but I guess.... I dont have a point.... lol Ill just sorta go now... and uh say HI to everyone...... HEY ANYONE WANT TO TEACH ME SOME BASICS?

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[Spitfire]

I could post a typical male reply to that, but instead : Welcome to the board Dawn

Oh and Kurisu - well said m8. Darwin rules!



/Spitfire



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They're clawing at the sky,
they're gonna pull it down.
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[Shadow]

Oh man, I usually don't read LONG posts like kurisu, but since kurisu posted it, i made an exception my opinion is, that how men and women used to be thoughsands of years ago have nothing to dow ith how are they today, but the rest, i think is pretty accurate (in theory ofcourse). I think in overall, what you mean is men have different interests from women .(period). hehehe and i did meet a few women gamers but our society is still changing, but then again... how do you know it IS a woman? or a man?

[nova]

Thank you kurisu and all for your replies..

I agree about men tending to be more solitary than women, drawing from the experiences that my friends tell me constantly that they're 'so different' than me interestwise. For example, I enjoy being by myself and working on art, or gaming while most of my friends are shopping or something. Sure, I go shopping, sure I still enjoy reading Vogue, but there's always going to be a part of me that will be more 'boyish'. It has to do with personality, I think, because if I was as social as some of my buds, I probably wouldn't want to have time set aside to work on artwork or game like I do.

It's women that have to go out here and prove that they can accomplish (like you said, kurisu) artwork or a frag record equal or better than men's. It's not going to happen by itself; it takes a few talented girls to begin to set the standard in what females can accomplish.

Sometimes I find myself enjoying men's reactions when they find themselves face-to-face with a female who has proved herself worthy. To further explain, I enjoy being a 'revolutionary' in showing what girls can do. It's also very refreshing to get away from the female 'status quo', and step into another world where the people you hang out with actually talk about something!

As for friends, for the most part I hang out with guys, mostly because they're the only ones that share the same interests as me. I have found only a few girls that I can talk to about Photoshop, or what game will recieve the title of 'game of the year' this year.

I hope to see more games and artwork in the future that will express what women tend to be. For example, women are more emotional.. which may help in deeper storylines in games. Women tend to also think things through and give deeper meanings to things they see; maybe this will be a fresh approach to games in the future.

There always will be a mindset of lower expectations toward women, because that's how we were created, being (unfortunately) the 'weaker' sex. It's up to us (listening, girls?) to show them what we can accomplish; we may bring new ideas and creativity to the gaming industry!


And may I quote Dhab: I am woman, watch me kick ass!


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* * * ** Nova
ICQ: 54240962

[This message has been edited by Nova (edited March 25, 2000).]

[nicole]

Amen.

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That which does not kill us makes us stranger.

[Frost]

I just wanted to mention that while I was at the GDC a few weeks ago, there was this girl by the name of Cornelia, who played Quake 3 Arena against hundreds of (if not a thousand) people, and she was only fragged 5 times during some 3 days of game play. If you look at it that way, she had to frag her enenmies 10 times (10 frags * number of players she absolutely thrashed) to disqualify him, yet she only got fragged 5 times herself.

All this to say that women are not necessarily inferior to men -- it just has not been evident because of the sheer low number participating and proving that they can do as well.

Sadly enough, there are hardly any women in the computer field -- the ratio being somewhere around 10 guys to 1 girl. It's becoming better and better, but it's a slow process.

...and let's not get how this affects relationships and how hard it is for a guy to find a girl who understands his work...

Cheers.
frost.

[kurisu]

And I have to say "Amen."

...To the last 3 posts


-k

PS: 'N thanks for the support mi amigos

[Sanga]

WOW! I guess I never really thought about it being a big deal being a girl who's into digital art. I just thought it was a really creative outlet. As far as gaming goes, ah, eehh, I really don't get the:

"I'm gonna run around this complex as fast as I can, an blow yer friggin head off more times than you can blow my friggin head off"

There just doesn't seem to be a point to it, now I'm not putting down anybody who enjoys these games, I just saying I don't understand them. When it comes to games that appeal to me as a woman, PLEASE O PLEASE, someone make another Grim Fandango!!

Sanga

[AprilYSH]

I was going to try and dig up the previous incarnation of this thread on this forum but I have a slow connection again tonite. I don't think I read all the posts in that one.

Anyway...

There are quite a few female digital artists who are *visible* online. Quite a few groups of them have formed too, to be even more visible *specifically* as women.

I do believe there are less women in the computer industry, as in most industries. But despite this, I think it's also an issue of visibility. Because people are not specifically promoting themselves as women in the industry, they are not being seen as women, and can easily be overlooked in the gender count with the default being male.

Groups such as the digital divas (I'm not part of them, this is not a promo) aim to correct this in some way.

That being said, I personally don't care if I am not counted as a female in the field. I don't really care enough about what others think (including males) to try and prove myself to them or prove I am just as good as a male. I know what I can do, I know what I enjoy, I'm happy to live as known or unknown as my non gender specific efforts make me.

More higly driven people and certain types of feminists might not understand, but hey, my other motto is "Ignorance is bliss!" I'm a lost cause so don't bother


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April http://april.cjb.net

[Darkmoon]

Hmmm being a girl RULES damn there are like NO girls around, i hardly find any that can acually DRAW most of them just hang around cause its a male dominated scene and thats annoying.
Sure the Show us your tits comments dwindle after a few years, if one acually stays around that long, but honestly, if your around that long, you stop getting treated like "OMG ITS A GIRL! quick everyone flirt!" hehe.
congrats to all you girls out there who have braved the male dominated digital art scenes like i and came out with as many friends as i did



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Darkmoon
-Seire Hirez,
-Hirez.org Staff =^..^=

[keelgore]

I love you

[xDarythx]

I don't know if any of you have seen http://www.topazdesigns.com or the girl's personal site, but she is VERY good. I think she is still in high school.

I wish I had people like that at my damned high school. There are only a handfull of people I know that are into graphics or anything related to computer for that matter.

[Spitfire]

I wish i had more female colleagues... *snif* Cause my (male) colleagues aren't good for anything besides the usual "your mom wears army boots" shit..

I read an interesting article in the newspaper recently about the differences between men and women when it comes to computers &, more specifically, the internet. It was quite a nice read, altough i didnt agree with everything. They went quite in-depth (overboard even..) on the differences between the male & female centra in the brain that handle depth, color, abstract reasoning, yadda yadda.

In all honesty though : i couldnt care less how many female gamers there are : gamers are targets, regardless from their sex About the same applies for artists : as long as their work is good, and it inspires me to explore different roads myself, then i dont really care if the maker's a cute 18year-old female student (or a 55-year old hag from texas for all it matters...) or a 12year-old kiddo from sweden.

It's their accomplishments and personality that matters, not the presence or absence of 2 milk-cartons.

/Spitfire out.



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They're clawing at the sky,
they're gonna pull it down.
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[Binke]

oh yeah sweden rules

[Nomadik]

Well I must be a lucky man indeed... My girlfriend is an avid gamer, and an excellent artist(She prefers drawing in the style of Sailor Moon though[Bleh!])... She hasn't done anything computer related quite yet, but when I become more advanced I'll probably show her the tips and tricks as well...
-Nomadik
Http://www.vengei.com/nomadik/

quote:

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Originally posted by Nova:
It's a sad fact that these days one rarely comes across women gamers or digital artists. As a result, I feel a little alone in the world I'm wondering what you all think about this topic, or why it's true. I personally see plenty of reasons why women are not inclined to producing computer graphics, or be seen playing computer games.. but I'd like to know of any ideas at all on what YOU might think. Maybe I'll recieve some insight.

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