[Chapel]

Ok, I'm starting this thread so all us old forum folks can vent a little. Do to the hostile takeover of the Digital Art forum by newbies.. I figure Random Musings could be a safe haven while we collect our thoughts.

So, post what your thoughts are on the dos and don'ts for newbies. (or everyone for that matter) I figure if this turns out coherent Dhabih could put it in the guidelines.. or a Newbie Handbook section at the top of the forum. Just to set a few rules I think if you reply to this thread you should have atleast been a member for over a month.

My contribution is.. if your mom won't hang it on the fridge then don't post it in the forum.

[gear]

fridge? say you gotta mom thats a art critic?
dang your lucky.

[Affected]

I think it would be best if people learned to very basics elsewhere, and asked for help on more advanced or more strictly digital media-related stuff here... The basics about colour, composition, drawing etc. can be learned from a lot of sources, and it takes up a lot of resources if people here expect to be taught everything by the resident gods. The people here have so much more to offer than to just tell someone for the 2000th time how to colour pics in Photoshop, but it seems lately that's all there is time for.

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[This message has been edited by Affected (edited September 24, 2000).]

[Nex]

well I posted this already before but:

How a bout a "sijun startup" -site ?
All the basics explained, a forum for beginners, tutorials and answers for the most common questions.

on the other hand maybe I'm just an idiot :/

[Nightime]

How about a guide saying wait at least 12-24 hours for a response to your image... (I usually post an image on a Friday morning, and check back on Sunday night.)

It's pretty amazing that some only allow 10 minutes to pass before they retaliate with a "how come nob0dY responds!!!!111" message. Yes, despite huge amounts of traffic, have the deceny to give critics time to come up with a thoughtful reply.

Just play a game of Quake or something to kill the time.. (or my choice, rocket arena =-p)

-Nightime

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JJ / Nightime
http://members.home.net/jeremy12/web/

[el tigre]

It absolutely does my head in when newbs post a drawing that, frankly, I'd be ashamed of and say "what do you think?"

When I first came to this board I was stunned by the diversity and level of skill displayed here, it took me ages to work up the courage to display anything, and even then it was only when the piece was finished or I genuinely didn't know how to finish it. These guys post the idea, new post for the line drawing, and then depending on response will post it yet again when it's complete. All the time I'm kerbing my brutal honesty in case I offend you guys.

Newbies, I don't hate you, we've all been there, just have some fucking manors.

I'll prolly edit this v.shortly

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Does anyone know the secret formula? :�

[This message has been edited by el tigre (edited September 25, 2000).]

[N Pak]

I honestly think what you people are saying here is terrible. To talk about inexperienced people like this, as if they were second class citizens just makes my blood boil.

I will admit up front that I'm a newbie to this board and I dont know exactly how you guys do everything, but I'm sure as hell not going to sit on my laurals waiting for you to bless me and accept me into your secret society of art gods. No I'm going to jump in and post some of my own work for public evaluation and critique!

Not every peice posted here is going to be gold poured on canvase, and I dont think there isnt anyone here that isnt interested in learning something new everyday. So as for learning some manners, I must say for "old school message posters" like yourself, you sure have very few.

[Chapel]

You are misunderstanding the purpose of this thread. This is to give all the new members a heads up as to what we want and don't want to see. Its also to give the regular forum goers a little chance to let off some steam. Instead of everyone getting flamed on their threads. I thought it would be better if we just got it out of our system here. It gets pretty annoying to see the same threads over and over. After you have been here for awhile maybe you will understand.

[N Pak]

I can see where your coming, and I suppose I did over react. I apologize. Even still its hard to tell when someone is just joking around or is deadly serious on this board, text isnt a great emotion medium.

As for people posting, with 40,000+ posts you are going to see repition no matter what.If you really want to make the board a digital art gallery then I suggest you take Nex's advice and convince Dhabih to create a construction/tutorial section for the board.

Again I want to apologize for snapping at everyone like that. Its not my intention to make enemies... I suppose I was letting off steam

[el tigre]

N Pak,

I apologise, re-reading my post I have portrayed myself as being offensive and angry, I'm not......at all.

I'm frustrated at the sudden (and I DO mean sudden) influx of newbies. Usually people join up one-at-a-time, which is cool, they watch - they learn. When so many join at once they swamp the rest of us and the good mood of the board changes.

The last thing I want is an enemy, never mind an entire hoarde of them, I was merely venting my frustration.

Again, if I was out of order, I apologise (not just to N Pak but to all you silent watchers aswell)

[Chapel]

It seems lately like everyday atleast one new person joins. It use to be like once a week. I don't mind it when they say hey and they post their art and show that they are going to participate. I just hate it when people make a thread just to say "Hi.. I have nothing to post", and it bumps my post that I slaved over all night off of the page.

[newt]

Same thing happened on my last forum hangout - maxforums.org.
This is basically what happens to forums when they become popular, people like this place, it's the best illustration forum on the net, and the word is spreading. I guess you can expect it to get worse.
All I can say is to have patience with the newbies. Some of them are very young (12 and under), and are just starting to make art. They've no idea what they're doing, they're experimenting to see if they're any good. You might bash someone and turn them off to art for good...
I know it sucks to answer the same questions over and over again, but the only solution I can think of is a easily accesible FAQ. I'm sure if Liquid! had a dollar for everyone that asked 'Whoa, how did you do that?'...
So where's my point? Um. Maybe just tolerance for the new guys. It's mighty impressive just how talented some people on this forum are - so talented it's isolating them. Like Einstein only being able to talk about relativity with four people on the planet.
Ok. Rambling now.

[N Pak]

Yeah, Newt' right. Its important to be accepting of the newer people, because if you dont give them time they might give up completely.

The same thing happened when I tried to play the original TF for quake. I jumped in and tried to learn the ropes, and when I asked for help, people on my own team began to abuse me. Getting shot out in front of sniper fire by your own team does not make for any sort of long lasting love AS it stands to this day I have a deep dislike of the original TF. Do we really want the same image to be portraied on this board? I would hope not.

There is so much potential for people to learn new tricks and present what they've learned here. I suppose if you want a straight art posting area, well then ask Dhab for it. After all, as I remember it the Digital Art board is an area where people can meet and discuss styles, tricks, and unfinished imagry.

I can understand where your coming from Chaple, I really can because your frustrations are not unreasonable... I just read them as being hostile and hateful. This was my mistake and again I'm sorry. Now if you want some help convincing Dhab to create a Gallery of some sort, or maybe have more clear documentation as for what the boards were created for, then I'll gladly lend a hand.

[Chapel]

Thats all I want. A little FAQ when someone signs up that tells them what we are about and what we don't approve of.

As far as relating this to a game though.. I first played Quake over a buddies house with one of my other friends who was learning. The guy humiliated us and just giggled the whole time. Less than a year later my friend and I entered a Quake tournament with about 30 teams of 2. We won and we beat my buddy to get there. (And yes I laughed and giggled the whole time)

I guess the point is.. if someone bashes your art and tells you its not worth the paper its drawn on.. then try again.. practice.. show em up. Don't quit though.

By the way if I read like I'm an asshole, chances are I am.

[DeadlySCSI]

I speak as a total Newbie to all this "good" art and I think that theres the possiblity that Newbies get put off because some people are in the habit of bashing their work (which they've probably spent hours on and is probably the best thing they've ever done in their lives) but arn't actually giving any advice on how to make it better. I posted 2 pics recently and I got 5 replys overnight, only 1 of which was actually any help to me, the rest were crits telling me that what I did wasn't good enough.

I agree... Dhabih should put a Digital Art forum up for Newbies to show off thier work and get a little bit of useful feed-back which will help them to develop their skills.

Pro's have a little bit of sympathy with us newbies... you used to be like us in the past... and you had to get some feedback somewhere, and your mates were either stupid or didn't care.

These forums have alot of really talented people as members so you'd think this is the best place to get advice don't you?

[JayBee]

It's an interesting one, isn't it? How do you regulate creativity? How do you filter the time wasters (and yes, they DO exist, among Newbies and Vets) from the people with genuine questions?

My only suggestion would be to have "basic" and "advanced" forums. Would this promote segregation? I think not. I'm not talking about one forum for newbies, one for vets - I'm talking about a forum for work that just needs tweaked (the "advanced" forum) and one for the "How do I draw figures" threads ("basic").

By making this distinction, it doesn't separate on how long someone's been on the board, but on what they want to pick up on. For example, Ceenda is a fantastically advanced landscape artist, but recently posted a thread asking about some fairly basic figure drawning problems.

I think that judging someone on the number of posts they've made is dangerous, but by separating posts according to the LEVEL of advice the poster is wanting, we might be safer. Nobody wants to stigmatise newbies, but having basic questions alongside rather advanced stuff just makes the forum more frustrating than helpful in many cases.

Hey, it's just my tuppence worth. Hope that made sense...

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. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk