[derPunkt]

I'd like to say something to Jason.
I don't understand why you keep posting replies and comments about others anatomy and stuff when yours isn't really something to say WOW. I mean, I went thru your site, and all I've seen is blurry-half-finished-no-anatomy kinda stuff. Ok, that Jedi was atleast somehow clean and sharp, but it has nothing to do with anatomy.
Also I have seen that profile. Not something we could be impressed by.
I am not bitchin on you or anything but, how can you comment something you haven't really mastered yourself.
I am not saying I am new DaVinci but atleast I spend hours on my work and don't really show off (atleast in the things I don't really understand)
dP www.3dpalette.com/peaeye

[Oscar Alexander]

Even though I think Jason is just trying to help (you don't have to an expert in anatomy to be able to see it's incorrect), I agree with your complaint.

So, as Shrimpish stated before:
"Take the 2x4 out of your own eye before trying to take the splinter out of someone else's."

No offense

[Muzman]

Guys, get a grip

[Funfetus]

Amen.

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Funfetus
iCE VGA Division
http://www.funhousedigital.com

[derPunkt]

Yeah, well, you don't have to be an expert. How come that most of the ppl (in this case Jason) doesn't see his own mistakes. I realize he is trying to help, but how can someone help someone else if he can't help himself. I don't have anything against him, just he was the last drop that I could take. Recently I've seen a guy build a tutorial with someone elses pictures. That is outrageous. I have seen alot of ppl doing that (acting like that) directly to me or someone else, and I can't stand that anymore.
Well, sorry if someone got hurt but thats the way the things are.
dP

[Loki]

Typical newsgroup/forum woes ...

Just ignore him. If you don't really value his advice/comments then just ignore them. Doesn't hurt you or him.
And with time you'll know who can help you to improve your work or give you feedback you can trust anyway ...
So, leave him alone and get back to your painting - can't wait to see it posted here !

[Muzman]

I think saying that 'criticising someone else means you don't look at yourself' has kinda missed the whole point of human communication.

[jasonN]

Okay guys, I'm sorry. It's just that you ask for feedback and that's just what I see. Nothing much else to say really.

I know that I don't know everything about drawing. But like you guys said, I'm just trying to help.

Besides, a while ago we already had discussions about this sort of thing. We all know that each of us may not be as good as another. But that still shouldn't stop us from giving comments. Just as long as they're not of the flame type or anything nasty. There are people on this board that are of all skill levels and to limit being able to post comments to only 'the best' doesn't seem very fair.

I know my drawing skills aren't the best. And you say that I should use my own critisim and comments on myself, the thing is, I do critisize my own work. Since I am still learning, I still have years to hone and refine my skills, so each time I do a new picture, I try to improve on my last. Isn't that what everyone does?

But that's cool. I'll keep my comments to myself. Thanx for pointing this out, cuz I don't want to go around pissing people off.

[This message has been edited by jasonN (edited January 18, 2000).]

[jasonN]

Actually I shouldn't be sorry, I haven't done anything wrong...

Okay, first of all, you don't need to have mastered anatomy to give advice about what looks right. Just because you can't put it on to paper doesnt' mean you can't visualise what it should look like.
There are many people who can tell someone that they drew an arm wrong yet still not have a complete understanding or 'mastery' of anatomy.

Oscar: If you agree with his complaint, then that means you agree with the fact that Der Punkt doesn't understand how I could comment on anatomy without understanding it myself. However you contradict yourself by saying:
"you don't have to an expert in anatomy to be able to see it's incorrect"
The whole point on der punkt's argument is:
"how can you comment something you haven't really mastered yourself"


On to your second post....

"Yeah, well, you don't have to be an expert. How come that most of the ppl (in this case Jason) doesn't see his own mistakes"

"but how can someone help someone else if he can't help himself"

What do you think I'm doing? Just sitting back and critizing everyones work like an old granny? Don't you actually think that I'd be drawing myself, trying to improve all the time?

I said: "But that's cool. I'll keep my comments to myself."

It makes me sound like I've been flaming people at a whim. But I haven't. My comments have been completely acceptable so I will not keep my comments to myself.
People ask for comments so I give it to them. I don't even do it in a bad or flaming way. A few months ago this was already talked about. People prefer constructive critisim rather than "OOHH THAT'S SOO COOOL!", people actually want to *know* how they can go about making a picture look better. And if it does look great, a reply like I stated above is fine. Also, when I reply, I don't just burn it until the person has no confidence. I always try to mention something good. If I have nothing good to say I keep my mouth shut. There's a difference between saying something bad and pointing something out that could be improved.


"I don't have anything against him, just he was the last drop that I could take. Recently I've seen a guy build a tutorial with someone elses pictures. That is outrageous. I have seen alot of ppl doing that (acting like that) directly to me or someone else, and I can't stand that anymore."

I'm sorry that you feel angry about that. Maybe you should check out the thread on anger.
http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000110.html

You say that you know I'm just trying to help, so then you know that my intentions are pure and straightforward. The only reason why you did this was because of the shit that's happened to you before, whatever that may be. Now all that anger is exploding onto me which isn't fair. Maybe you should direct your anger elsewhere. You have no reason to flame me.

And if you do have some strange whacked out reason why you still don't like me then do what Loki said, just ignore me.

Anger - "it is you who either chooses it, or turns your back on it." (Quote thanks to LeChuck)

Oh and thank for the support Muzman, Funfetus.

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-Jason

JasonArt

ICQ: 24680551




[This message has been edited by jasonN (edited January 18, 2000).]

[Oscar Alexander]

Jason, please don't get me wrong.

You're completely right on the contradiction issue. I think everybody should be able to share their opinion on a drawing with others,
but it just sounds weird when somebody critisizes you, when they can't do any better themselves. And Jason, I didn't post the message to put you down, it's just the situation in general, in fact, I never even
saw you giving anyone negative critisizm.

Now then... let's continue improving our skills, shall we?

[derPunkt]

Yeah, as I said I apologize for hurting anybody, but it was just too much for me. Look, I've been doing cgi for 10 years since the days of Amiga. And I practically grew up with a VERY high standard DemoScene set up.
And then, after those 10 years of losing my eyesight, pain in the back of sitting in front of tyhe monitor, some shitty little programmer (not you ofcourse) comes and says: "Hey, dP, that eye isn't exactly at the right spot, and that background is kinda weird". And thats it, I could go to his house and kick his ass so badly that his mother wouldn't recognize him.
Thats all. Its not YOU, its the aaaah.
Oh well, keep up the good work, I won't be shitting like this anymore
dP

[TweeK]

Shouldn't you guys be working? or all you all unemployed



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Greetz
TweeK

[email protected]
www.gamecase.com
ICQ # 14145083

[TweeK]

I'm mean, you just wrote a thread with the length of Lord of the rings hehe.
about the critics: let it SLIDE!! everybody's learning



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Greetz
TweeK

[email protected]
www.gamecase.com
ICQ # 14145083

[fragamite]

and I read it.. argh. but it was pretty interesting though.

btw: what can you do to save your eyes from pixel death? when you get into the flow of working you tend to not stop until you cant see anything unless you go to 500%.. but again, I got the cheapest monitor in the world

hmm. sorry if you read this post.

[laminator]

Hi guys,

I've read some of Jason's posts and I don't have a problem with them. First, people inherently know when proportions are off,(especially if they have a fresh perspective). I know when I'm drawing for a couple hours things get goofy. Hence my chunky spiderman pic. heheheh

Come on, sing along, "All we are saying...is give peace a chance.."


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LaMInatoR

[jasonN]

Okay guys, it's cool. It's just that some of the posts seemed to imply that I'm someone who doesn't like anyone on the board and just puts them down all the time. Which I'm definetely not. That's why I had to defend myself in they way I did.

Thanks for the support guys.

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-Jason :)

JasonArt

ICQ: 24680551

[micke]

If you asks for comments you'll get comments.
Good and bad.


-Mikael

[Oscar Alexander]

[n8]

heehee...too long..cant be fuct reading all of it...yeah...

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Woo0boggyboggy!!

[LuCiD]

Everyone just needs to go with the flow. I was surprised how supportive and friendly people on this board are, i only discovered this page a week or so ago. Everyone just remember everyone is different, if you post your work on a public forum its inevitble your going to get atleast one response that doesn't please you.

Just learn to live and let live

[ka0z]

I don't want to hurt anyone with me saying this, but I kinda agree with dP, I understand how you feel man, I dont think that someone who hasn't mastered something should going around criticizing someone else's work and giving advices when he/she him/her'self cant do his/her's work right. It just wrong. If some newbie sculptor goes criticizing Michaelangelo's own sculputurs sayin 'his work looks unproportionate, the eyes are out of the place, the ear is too big, and your anatomy is way off', does that look good? Someone who haven't done anyting yet to look and say 'whoa, this is something awesome' and criticizes other's work like if can do it better, NO. I think its just plain wrong.
However, I also sorta agree with JasoN, just because you dont [cant] do it better, doesnt mean you cant put up some constructive criticizm, like an advice or something.
Anyway, just my 2 !c.
PS: that font of 'ENOUGH' looks cool man :)

[LuCiD]

sorry but if u ask for opinions or advice on a public board, you got to expect positive and negitive comments no matter who they come from. Remember the majority of the people viewing ur work wont be any good so its really helpful to see what the non artistic think of a piece

[B]

i kind of agree with OA
i believe a 2 year old could criticize picasso,. if the kid has the insight, they i'd value the opinion,.. many people have the imagination, and the ability to interpret art, and how to make it better, yet lack the ability to throw it down on paper or digital media ,.much practice brings this.
so, you never know if one can be a better artist, if they haven't had the chance to practice as much as you. lad di da and all that crap,..
i think i just wanted to post something so ignore the above ramblings and read below


[This message has been edited by B (edited January 24, 2000).]

[Partikle]

Yooh well. Just wanted to share with you this little thing i read from some kind of artschool's webpage (don't even ask me the address. I can't remember it).
They talked about learning to draw on your own and about your parents evaluating your job.. They said very clearly that you don't have to know yourself how to draw to see the progress one has made or to say what sucks in one's work..

So that's that. It came from an art teacher

[Cypher]

Yes...

Take care of the tree growing out of your eye before trying to pull the splinter out of your neighbor's!

"Constructive criticizm" is undoubtedly helpful, but only when coming from someone that's somewhat experienced.

That's one thing that's been happening around here, and I've said something about it before, but I got flamed, since EVERYBODY wants to criticize; there's very few true artists on this board, and they seldom criticize art, for obvoius reasons.

If you lived in the 60-70's, would you jump up in Jimi Hendrix's face and tell him that he's out of tune? (because he was, a lot of times) But that was part of his development, and part of his music.

And, like I said before, a very important reason that Dhabih, Mullins, Caudle, etc. have developed so thoroughly is that they never had people telling them that "that sucks" or "your anatomy sucks" or "the ear is too low and the nose is cricked."

Go take a look at Dhabih's early work at: http://threshold.premierweb.com/realm/gallery
That is obvoiusly newbie art, and it has tons of things that are wrong and out of perspective. But I bet that if someone threw crap in his face about that, he wouldn't have gone this far.

Just be understanding and say nice things.

You could be liable for an unaccomplished dream. Talk from experience, not opinion!

[This message has been edited by Cypher (edited January 25, 2000).]

[derPunkt]

Cypher, I am 100% with you, and that was the whole thing about this topic.
Now, go on to "new pic by" and see me getting flamed.
dP

[spooge demon]

Cypher said-

"And, like I said before, a very important reason that Dhabih, Mullins, Caudle, etc. have developed so thoroughly is that they never had people telling them that "that sucks" or "your anatomy sucks" or "the ear is too low and the nose is cricked.""

I have heard nothing but criticism all my life. Mom always loves everything, but she's is on a very short list. All the feedback I have gotten from my site has been a revelation.

The first few semesters at school were boot camp. I had three instructors tell me to go do something else with my life because I clearly had no ability. Drawings were torn of the wall and walked on.

My best critic is Dad. He looks out from behind his paper and says, "The arm looks busted." His secret is he never tells me how to fix it(he knows he doesn't know).

If you do artwork professionally, be prepared to get crapped on daily. I spent 3 hours a day last week with a bunch of ad people who could not find their asscheeks with both hands and a flashlight. They were literally moving things around one pixel at a time. Commerce dictates you keep your mouth shut. It is an aspect of professionalism.

Only consider what was said, don't worry about who said it. An amateur may not be able to tell you how to fix it, but do listen. If the content is valid, use it, if not, disregard it.

This is a very special perk of being an amateur. When you are a pro, you have to do what you are told, valid or not.

Artists are looked at as kind of a pond scum. The art director you are working for might have been (if you are lucky) a failed illustrator at one time and failed upward to art director. The attitude is "I could do this much better, but I am busy doing more important things on this project, so do exactly what I say." It is a very great challenge to still do good work in these circumstances.

This is not always true, but about %80 in my experience.

Have fun!

[Count Zero]

Right. Freedom of speech, anyone? If you say you want criticism, you should be ready to take it, both good AND bad. And if your not allowed to give negative critique, what's the point? You don't learn anything if everyone says your work is wonderful.
And as for "don't preach if you don't know how to do it yourself", that's bullshit. I can't draw worth dick, but I can tell whether something works or not. And if your not allowed to say that this or that needs work, you shouldn't be allowed to compliment either. Let's go fascist on art. Sheesh.
PS. As how you go by delivering your criticism is another story all together.

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COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[Muzman]

fark, i love criticism. That's why I'm here
Beats the hell outa being ignored!

[Pigeon]

I think this forum is great for the very reason that the little guy can give his/her criticism of work. How else are you gonna be able to give constructive criticism ever? You have to start somewhere. I remember hating critique days in my art classes not just because I was scared of what people would say about my work, but also because I was afraid of how dumb I would sound talking about everyone else's work. However, these days were immensely valuable for my education. Critiquing work forces you to evaluate what you see in an objective and analytical way, allowing you to gain insight into your own and others' work. It doesn't matter if you know what you're talking about or not. YOU'RE LEARNING. You're learning how to SEE and how to SPEAK.

Even if you're a bigwig and receive criticism from the little guy, it's immensely valuable because if you think about it, who are you making the artwork for? Think carefully about your audience, or you should get into another line of business.

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http://members.aol.com/dndunakin