[psi burn]

i dunno, he always looks so damn slow to me..

and the last dragon is on HBO right now, this is sweet as hell!

[Kenzo Tanaka]

Psi Burn: Well remember he's not 20 anymore

But seriously, what looks good and what is good are 2 different things. I remember back in the day when I use to fight (10 odd years ago) it was very hard not to laugh at all the guys who would try to toss out a flurry of (what they thought) were quick, flashy shots. I would just very calmly grab one of their spastic shots and toss them. Some learned, some just thought they needed to be even faster (they were wrong).

[lotor]

That guy that did the nunchucks in Sidekicks was not Chuck Norris. You can tell from the eyes that the man was Asian.

Chuck could seriously fight though.

Now let me set you kids straight on what martial arts are the toughest. There is a contest called "Vale Tudo" that is no-holds barred fighting. Whoever wins that is one bad dude.

Did you guys check out that web site I told you about? If you want to know what is the toughest then ask these guys they will know. www.mixedmartialarts.com

Use your heads guys. YOu don't watch movies to see whos the toughest and you don't watch wwf either. You watch bare knuckle fighting and wrestling like UFC or Pride or Vale Tudo. Then oyou will know what works and what doesn't.

Tai Chi, Kungfu, ninjitsu, and Karate are for people who want exercise and coordination. But not for guys who want to go into a bar and think they can take on the toughest guy in there. You'll get your teeth handed to you.

What I belive works the best hands down is to be well rounded in Kick boxing and grappling. But again this doesn't alway hold true in some situations but it will in most.

And it does help to have punching power like Tyson.

[Kenzo Tanaka]

lotor: Yeah, those Gracie boys are pretty damned tough. I love watching them fight and would sure as hell hate to piss one of them off. I love the interview with Renzo about the one guy who kicked him through the fence being dead... pretty scary dude!

[lotor]

What about that guy Wallid Ismail who beat 3 of the best Gracies?

He just beat Royce Gracie.

Now that is cool. Funny thing is he was trained by Carlson Gracie.

[Chris]

I thought a good chuck norris movie (which he didn't have too much role in) was "Sidekicks", might get some flamage for that, but I enjoyed it....plus the numchucks in the tournament scene and the breaking of the bricks on fire was pretty cool to watch.

*Added 2 minutes later*
BTW, it was made in 1992, so I was like 12..so you can see why I enjoyed it..but I still do in some form hehe.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited August 30, 2000).]

[psi burn]

chris i saw that movie heh, he was with that dork "barry" who had asthma the entire movie.....that movie i ESPECIALLY thought he sucked in because he was fighting really crappy guys in some local tournament, and was just throwing some basic kicks n punches...

[JayBee]

I think people seem to make the mistake of thinking that after a couple of years training in a martial art, they're going to be able to use it in a fight.

One of the main differences between basic street fighting/wrestling, and martial arts disciplines is that the former teaches a person how to fight, the latter teaches a person how to live, stay fit, and defend themselves if need be.

True, if a novice gung fu player (one who's only been studying for ten or fifteen years, say) picks a fight in a bar, he'll get his ass kicked.

The point is that a skilled player wouldn't pick a fight in the first place. I once chatted to a tai chi instructor who was giving a talk on the sword form. He said that all the fancy bullshit didn't matter. You crossed swords, then nutted your opponent on the nose, sending them reeling. You follow up with your elbow to the side of the face, then take your time hacking them up.

Not exactly tai chi, but then, if you want to beat someone in a fight, you don't "use" your gung fu. If you're good enough, your body knows what to do. If your not, your body STILL knows what to do (turn 180 and peg it!).

That's why you see Bruce Lee just seem to "stand there" and counterattack everything - it's what his training demanded.

Anyway, that's yet ANOTHER lecture from the JayBee. I should learn to condense these posts a bit more

------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[Count Zero]

"novice gung fu player (one who's only been studying for ten or fifteen years, say)"
You're kidding, right? :\
You consider ten/fifteen years as a short period of time? I know ppl who have been practiving kung fu for "only" five years and I would not even CONSIDER messing with them.
It's not just the technique, but the improved speed and tolerance for hits that puts them above your average barfighter...

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[JayBee]

"you're kidding right?"

Nope

There's a subtle difference between a gung fu fighter and a gung fu "player", and it's not just a language one.

The difference is that the guys that you're talking about will be able to smack down any bar fighter you pick, cos as you say, they're faster, harder-hitting, and trained in how to inflict real damage.

However, they are in a completely different class from the gung fu "player". These are usually the wizened old centenarians that look like they're only about 60 and can kill people by putting their fingers on the opponent's breastbone.

Gung fu is a lifestyle, not just a fighting art, and that's the belief of the player.

The gung fu fighter is just using eastern training techniques and styles to augment his boxing. As such, he's going to be better than your average boxer WITHOUT the flashy training, but he's not a player :

That grey-haired player in the corner will still whip the fighter's ass, cos the faster and harder the fighter comes at him the more the fighter's going to hurt himself.

It takes five years to learn how to fight someone else with gung fu, but it takes a lifetime to learn how to get your opponent to fight himself.

Or something...

And this is meant as no disrespect to your kung-fu buddies (or anyone else here who studies kung-fu). Personally I reckon the ideal is somewhere in the middle ground, where you have enough physical-training to fight if you have to, but enough lifestyle-training to know that you never really have to.

Oh, a final note - in China, it takes ten years to learn the whole of the Tai Chi form. The form itself only takes about 20 minutes to complete, and is usually taught to westerners in a 10 month course (or thereabouts). The essential difference is that the westerners learn the whole thing, then refine it. Thus, after 10 months, you can quit and get on with your life, taking your training further "if you want to"

In China, they spend the first year learning how to stand up straight (and no, I'm not kidding about that...)

No, really, I will shut up now

------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[lotor]

I still believe what I see with my eyes. And that is that a good combination between ground fighting and standup striking are what works the best.

No offense to gung fu but if a good jui jitsu fighter of grappler gets him to the ground then his striking ability is useless.

But if you mix gung fu and grappling you will probably have a lethal fighter. Prepare for any situation is a good idea in the fighting arts.

Oh and I don't know how well gung fu works when your getting hit in the head with chairs and bottles, or getting bitten which is very common in street fight and bar fights.

When 4 guys attack you at once the best defense besides pulling a gun is probably to run fast.

[JayBee]

"I still believe what I see with my eyes"

Yeah, and I've been pushed by one of those old guys... my GOD they're fast

Anyway though, yeah I agree. The point is that a good gung fu player wouldn't let himself get grappled.

There is a difference (usually absent in western translations) between "kung fu" and "gung fu".

Kung fu is the name usually given to Shaolin Gung Fu, which is a fairly effective system of open handed combat. It relies heavily on striking force and speed, and is what is usually thought of when people mention Kung Fu in the west.

However, kung fu is a form of "gung fu". The best way to avoid confusion here is to think of gung fu as the Chinese equivalent of the western term "martial art" - it's the umbrella term.

Kung Fu, therefore, roughly becomes "Shaolin Martial Art" (a fairly specific term), whereas gung fu is a much more all-encompassing term, including (but not limited to) sword forms, wrestling, sprinting, kicking, punching, assassinating etc.

Of the various gung fu, Tai Chi (I know I keep going back to it, but it is really good!) is one of the most widely applicable, because it RELIES on your opponent's skill and his attack. The fast and harder the attack, the more damage Tai Chi will do to the attacker.

This applies to any form of physical attack (strikes, grapples, lunges), because in order to attack, the opponent must put themselves off balance (the Tai Chi player's stance ensures this). This the Tai Chi player uses to literally let the attacker fall over. It's something to watch, so subtle.

Where was I? (Jeezus, does he never shut up?)

Yeah, the point is that part of the gung fu training is how to avoid conflict, and that's one of its strengths - it teaches you how to spot the guys who could take you before you end up with a mouthful of loose teeth, and that's why I advocate it as a powerful form of self defence.

So much for me shutting up about this then, eh?

------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[psi burn]

oh well, all i know is, next fight im in, im just tackling the guy to the ground and throw fists + elbows in his face :] im sure thats the best way..

besides, unless im clumsy, im sure a tai chi person couldnt sidestep me charging or trying to grab them every time..

[Kenzo Tanaka]

Psi Burn: Bwahaha, no offense, but how little you know.

and if your real smart, you'd just avoid the fight altogether....

[psi burn]

kenzo i dont live by ninjas and kung fu practicing wisemen, everyone here fights the good old american way, so i dont think ill need to know anything flashy.

[WildMyth]

Fighting Styles In Action

[Svanur]

Kung Fu is really varied, some teach it more like a spiritual thing and others teach it to use in self defence. I myself am learning Kung Fu and it is really practical as long as you have the right teacher. Most of the moves and stances are really closed in Kung-Fu.

On the other hand. Try Thai boxing, those guys are really sick. After years of training those guys can take almost anything. I once saw this Thai Boxer take 3 knee kicks in the head and it didn't affect him. Instead he knocked the guy out with a single blow.

[Count Zero]

Psi: go for the testicles, eyes and soft tissue. All's fair in fighting. What works, goes. If it is serious and you feel threatened, fuck the beauty, grace and style of martial arts. To hell with the "purity" of battle. Annihilate the opponent in any way possible.
Not nice, but beats the alternative.

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[Masaccio]

i think if u join the police or army force for about 2 years (how ever long your contract is) ull learn more than enough to keep u out of trouble in the streets.
-maz

[immi]

For all you martial arts fans, you should read Jackie Chans autobiography. Its actually really interesting.

[JayBee]

quote:

---

kenzo i dont live by ninjas and kung fu practicing wisemen, everyone here fights the good old american way, so i dont think ill need to know anything flashy.

---

What, you just shoot each other?



------------------
. . : : j a y b e e

www.sketchboard.co.uk

[Jyashuwa]

Man! this is a long thread.

Heres my take on the whole martial arts thing:
I think all martial arts styles are basically the same. The only real difference is in the actually names. The techniques such as roundhouse kicks, chops, punches, sweeps, leg-take downs...etc are all common techniques. It's just some styles enphasis one technique over the other. Personally I think whether one stlye is better than another is a worthless argument. Most grapplers have proven to win more one-on-one fights. But what does a Grappler do when I they have 2, or 3 attackers. Many other styles such as Kungfu, kempo, Taekwondo...etc, were designed for multiple attackers, with less emphasis on one-on-combat.

After studying for almost 10 years, I don't train anymore for the fighting aspect. More for the phisical and mental benefits. If I really wanted to defeat an opponent, Id use a gun, but then again in this day and age, Mostly they'll have one too.

Ok..enough of my babbling....goodnight all.

[Count Zero]

Yeah, you can't really say which martial art is superior. It all depends on the amount and quality of training one has had. A person who has been practicing karate for 10 years will definately beat a guy who's been practiving kung fu for 5. And vice versa. There are other factors involved as well, but when simplified, it comes down to the amoun of training.
Thank you and good night.

------------------
COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[TJFrame]

Preface: This is a long post and I don't feel like spending even more time correcting spelling mistakes so don't have a cow becuase I misspelled a word, or two, or twenty...

Brazillian Ju-Jitsu is an evolution of the more traditonal Japanese Ju-Jitsu that focus almost exclusively on ground fighting (grappling). Tradional JJ was taught to as a method of unarmed combat to Samurai. It was intended to be be fatal and and did not focus on ground fighting becuase the idea was to throw an opponent to the ground then finish him quickly. Judo is a subset of JJ designed to be a sport and not fatal. Both JJ and Brazillian JJ as well as judo involves throws and submission holds such as chokes and arm and leg locks.

As far as which martial art is best to learn for combat, you should look no further than to mixed martial arts contests/events such as Pancrase,Vale Tudo,UFC, Pride Extreme Fighting, etc. These contests have very few rules and have matched people of all combat styles including American boxing, Muai-Tai boxing, wrestling, ju-jitsu,Russian Sambo, street-fighting and the various asian striking arts such as Kung-Fu, Karate,Tae-Kwon-Do, etc. Several things have been show to be true over the years:

Among them are:

- The striking Asian arts such as Kung-Fu,Karate, Jeet kun Doe, Tae-Kwon-Do, Akido etc are pretty much worthless. Simply do not work at all in a real fight situation. Has to do with not training in a free-form manner with a real opponent, reliance on striking distances and "set-ups" for moves etc. May be great as a sport, or as a method of exercise, but for fighting they stink. The "Grandmaster" 10th degree black-belts with their "secret dragon grips" and stuff who HAVE set foot in mixed martial arts rings have had their asses handed to them rather quickly. For example, I have tapes of brazillian ju-jitsu fighters taking on Kung-Fu and Karate guys with embarassing ease. The karate guys need their opponent to be within "striking range" and instead the JJ guys just quickly close the distance which disorients their opponet, they imediately tie up the oppoent then take them to the ground. The striking-only guys have no clue as to what to do and flail about helplessly as the JJ guys take out an arm or go for a choke. When a guy is shooting for a single or double leg takedown, or just simply bum-rushing you, it's just about impossible not to tie-up for a moment. Forget about your "Devastating Roundhouse kick" or whatever, the guy is in your face, NOW!

Wrestlers fare much better because they are all about ground control, yet they do not know any finishing moves. Wrestling is a sport whereas ju-jitsu/submission fighting is all about Fighting and nothing else.

-The most effective fighters today such as Sakuraba, Frank Shamrock, and Mark Kerr all cross train in both the striking arts such as boxing and mui-thai (low kicks to the thigh or knees to the body in addition to straight punching) as well as submission fighting which teaches ground control, choke holds and joint locks. An effective fighter knows how to throw a punch or an elbow when needed as well as execute a choke hold depending on the situation. Roughly 90 percent of all fights naturally go to the ground (or more if one of the fighters is actively attempting to do do) unless a guy gets knocked out by a sucker punch or something. Very rarely a fight will end quickly with a single, lucky kick or elbow to the face, but that is so rare so as to be not worth worrying about. Typically what happens is that punches fly, people shove and then tie up. Knowing what to do at that point, and remaining calm is crucial. The vast majority of people simple thrash about, and experienced submission fighters/wrestlers have a HUGE advantage. Perhaps the best way to get better at fighting is to fight! - alot. Experience is a crucial factor as well. Getting punched in the face can be very disorienting if you are not used to it

In case you're wondering who the hell I am and if I know what I am talking about, I am an avid mixed-martial arts fan and take (when I have the time) brazillian ju-jitsu. I wrestled in high school and have taken judo and tae-kwon-do.

-TJ

[psi burn]

based on this thread ive gathered that the best way to win a fight is using all out street fighting with grappling techniques and locks and crap like that...

i dont know why im continuing this threed.