[balistic]

This image is also a solution:

[Giant Hamster]

[HawkOne]

HAHAHahahah ... Hamsterman that is hillarious ...!!!

But it brings us to the question, is sex and nude human anatomy really that corrupting and horribly wrong ??? even if your average scheisse-film (as mentioned in South-Park, the movie) is probably not the most gorgeous thing to be watching with your kids on a saturday evening, regular sex it's still something most people grow to love as they get older, i.e. sexually mature, some as young as 12, then why is it so wrong to know about it when you're a kid ??

Religion is much worse I think, it should definately be restricted, so that young impressionable minds will not fall to becoming more of those brainwashed idiots who still actually believe that End of days is near... We need new unquestioning recruits for any religion, whether it is the Taliban or right-wing theocratic Christian groups flourishing in the US, as little as we need the HIV plague. It is far more crucial to the future of humankind to stop such idiots, than being so paranoid about something that is purely natural.

Stumbling over a couple fucking in the park when I was a kid is something of the most exciting experience I ever had, both people were having a good time, and I swear that I didn't even blink for all of 15 minutes.

Your 8 year old nieces wanting to "ride" your knee all the time, but your nephew couldn't care less, what is that all about ??

Trading porno-magazines your buddies stole from their fathers when you were to young to know how your pecker worked ??

Censoring content that has never been proved to be any trouble for anyone, is just stupid.

This post grew way out of hand ...

[Giant Hamster]

"Films should indicate the amount of violence in it. Musicians should indicate amount of filthy language in it."

Religion should indicate the amount of praying in it...etc...


Maybe if we were all like a Duracell battery: We'd have a little meter on our sides and when you held our nuts and forhead at the same time You'd see how much intelligence was in us.

[[Shizo]]

You left me completely puzzled there with the amount of praying thingie up there, Hamster.

[[666]Flat]

Yeah, right, Giant Hamster! Sex, violence and praying... I mean dammit, what are those sick snags gonna do next in order ta keep the commerce wheel spinnin'?!

[ceenda]

quote

Quote:

Galileo was imprisoned for writing that the Earth was round. Many countries still have laws on the books barring certain kinds of thought.

Ahem... actually, contrary to popular belief, Galileo was imprisoned not for saying that the Earth was round, neither for saying that the Earth went round the Sun. He was imprisoned for writing in Italian and not in Latin.

However, still validates your point, to which I agree.

[ceenda]

quote

Quote:

But it brings us to the question, is sex and nude human anatomy really that corrupting and horribly wrong ???

I'd certainly hope not, and I'd be surprised to find many people from both Christian and Muslim backgrounds who would think that an almighty being would devise such a reproduction method and then state that it's practice was morally wrong.

However, the perversion of sexuality (and I'm not talking from a religious viewpoint), the exploitation of people as objects to be used and abused, instant gratification... is having a massive impact on the modern generation. At 24, I wouldn't consider myself an 'old fart' by any means. But when people are given an ideal of sex as being with glamour models who dress skimpily for their every need, they can only be dissapointed by the reality that will ensue. If the modern generation could talk as a whole it would say "ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! ME!".

Bah, I'm tired and grumpy this morning.

[HawkOne]

Good morning ceenda, you old fart ... HAHAH Don't be so grumpy ...

[ceenda]

I've had a coffee... I'm feeling better now.

[Bare Bonez]

Interesting responses all. However, I think things went a bit astray. The main focus was not on censorship, but on one's own personal view of how much freedom they release when creating art.

There's a lot of discussion of whether children should be censored to certain things. In the end, I believe, that certain things should be kept from children because their minds are not ready for it. For example, children do not learn University level Physics at a young age because their minds are not yet able to understand it. I think the same goes for violence and sex.

If a child is exposed to violence at a young age, there is the possibility of damaging the child's mind. Yes there is the case that the child will remain the same, but is the chance of corrupting the child's mind worth it? With all the violent video games and movies out there, I'm curious whether or not this desensitizes people towards violence.

Even sex, it makes me wonder whether people have become desensitized to it that people can no longer see the love in it and instead they see how shagadellic it is.

It is about giving a person, be it a child or an adult, knowledge at a time where their minds can understand and think about the information they are processing. Most children have blank minds and can be programmed in almost any way because they lack the experience that life brings. They are extremely sensitive to any input signals, so I feel that it's soceity's moral responsibility to keep children from learning too much damaging information at a young age.

And in due time, when they are ready, they will come across all the necessary knowledge that they need to possess, be it violence or sex or even physics.

A good example is from the above comments from Duke Nukem. Comments like "So many babes. And so little time." shows how individual's that adopt Duke Nukem's may think.

And that is why I think artists should be responsible for what they create. If they have something meant for adults, then make it accessible to just adults. If it is meant for the public (i.e. Sijun), then it may be in the artist's interests to think about who their art may be viewed by and the consequences.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bare Bonez ]

[[Shizo]]

And there you have it Bare Bonez.. the artists who answered "I don't give a poop about anybody" (for any reason) are the ones who fill the world of entertainment with filth

[Giant Hamster]

BareBonez: How about instead of SHIELDING children from everything you actually bother to teach them? Yes, Teaching, what a concept.

If a child witnesses sex, Explain to them what's going on.:

Just cause they might not understand it completely doesn't mean shit. The people that grow up to be great are those that start doing things when they don't fully understand them...I mean, Look at singers: Nearly all the great ones started at age 3 to 8 singing stuff they didn't understand, knowing nothing about structure, about stuff they couldn't comprehend...and look where they are - They live in mansions, have grottos, peacocks, and everything they ever wanted as a child.

I feel children are more emotionally harmed by hiding them like the way you, and many others here, speak of...

I mean, you hide a kid away from sex, telling them they can't have it, shouldn't have it, it's wrong, it's a sin, it's dirty, it's disgusting, and that you'll break their legs if they touch your daughter...Then get married when they're 24 or so and it's perfectly ok now and you urge it. Do you know how fucking much of a mental system shock that is to someone? I mean, come on...think about it.

If I had to make a choice between your sheltered shit-hole and being Ripped apart Limb-by-limb...I would definately without a doubt chose to be hung, drawn and quartered.

[Bare Bonez]

I am unsure by the hostility in your tone that I have offended you. If I have, I deeply appologize. This is merely philisophical discourse at a means of understanding another artist's moral responsibility.

I by no means advocate shielding a child from everything. The essence I was trying to convey was to give them the information at the right time when their minds are mature enough to handle it. Unfortunately, I have failed in that regard.

Once again, the issue is not about censorship, but of proper time exposure, which does not necessarily involve shielding. It also does not necessarily involve witholding all the information and giving it to the child at once. It may involve just leaking it to them a little by little.

Why isn't sex education taught in school until children hit puberty? It is a matter of both maturity of body and mind.

I agree with you that hiding information from children is as damaging as giving too much information. Yet no where in my previous discussion have I stated hiding it from them. I appologize for not being clear.

Some knowledge is like a loaded gun. The difference between bettering a person and corrupting a person is so fine with this kind of knowledge. In North America they don't give load guns to children because of this. The same could be said for violence or sex.

Now enter the mind of the child. If a child has sex at a young age, he or she may think this feels good. Which is fine and all. Now if the opportunity comes along again, does the child think otherwise? They may contemplate how good it felt last time and do it again. Now there is the chance where the child may contemplate if there is a deeper meaning to it. They may realize, yes, this is a sacred bond between two human beings to create life. And then they may respect it more and decide not to.

Unfortunately, most children do not contemplate life and death in North American society because of the luxury of this society. Children from war torn countries may have more respect for life. Both means are equally viable. The difference is reasoning behind them. One is for self satisfaction, the other is for procreation. From the music produced today, the message some popular "artists" are pushing is that sex is for self satisfaction. It is not wrong, but it is not the whole story. This is where an artist's moral responsibility may step in. Possibly some popular artists should put equal emphasis on the fact that sex is also the production of life.

I'd give another arguement for violence and life, but I'm sure that is self explanitory.

If a child is bombarded with this kind of art, then these messages will be imprinted in their minds. I hope that you can see that there is a big difference with letting a child know too much too early in a given environment.

To make a long story short. Art can be used to inspire thought and emotion. It can be used as a positive force or a negative force. It is up to the Artist's own moral responsibility to use their talent as a means to either improve or degenerate society. Therefore, I believe that each artist should have some responsibility towards what they create.

[Giant Hamster]

nah, I wasn't offended. heheh. =)

*reads your post*

[Giant Hamster]

Dribbling out information at your pace is what i'm talking about. that IS shielding. If a child happens to come across sexual material at whatever age...wether it be 3 or 8, don't try hiding it...just tell them. usually just the simple act of giving a straight forward answer will suffice for the child. If the child asks more questions, tell them more about it and then your views and if you don't want them acting out on it simply telling them that it's best they wait til they find that special someone than making up some crap about how it's a sin, they'll burn in hell, or they're not old enough.

[Rob Why?]

I'd say people should sheild they're kids. if they don't then they'll turn out like ME. and no parent wants that to happen. my parents havent told me I'd burn in hell for anything yet, and now I go around doing bad things constantly.
come to think of it, I probably shouldn't even comment on this subject, the only think I know about kids is that I'm still one, and you adults confuse the hell outta me.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Why? ]

[HawkOne]

Bare Bonez[, I'll have to say your writing is really smooth, when reading your words, I imagine a psychologist talking with a muted voice, so as to not upset, and like a lawyer weighing each word before it leaves your mind, making sure you cannot be misunderstood.

But, you see that Giant Hamster over there, snoring, half buried in wood-chippings and straw. I think he's onto something with what he's been saying in his last few posts.

I think it could boil down to "fear vs. safety in the end, I think that is the most important in a childs upbringing. I have never seen images that would threaten a childs sense of safety, even Beksinski or Gigers work. As mentioned before, obviously if you illustrate Winnie the Pooh, you should keep in mind you target audience, because it is an easily defined one. But designing for the general public, I think you need to be able to trust that guardians do their job.

If a kid is old enough to find this place, he/she should be able to cope with anything that might pop up, especially since it is a place for artists, who should (hopefully) have a generous portion of liberal thought.

Rembrandt�s (Van Rijn) famous painting, �The Anatomy Lesson of Dr. Tulp�, is not exactly Sesame Street, nor is Marcelo Bordese: Crucifixion, but I don't really think it has to be either, even though it is hanging in a public gallery for all to see.

Movies are a different story though, kids who have nightmares after "accidentally" seeing Alien, they were genuinely scared by the seeming reality, which is a much more "autopilot" immersive experience, much more powerful and dreaminspiring than a still picture ever will be to a child.

As a sidenote, kids here in SE-Asia, watch splatter horror movies by the dozen each month, as with traffic rules, people here seem oblivious to this fact. It is also interesting to see, as a European living here in Malaysia, that there are a lot of rape and molestation cases in the newspapers, nearly daily, unlike a couple of times a year where I previously lived, curiously enough it is seemingly always from the most religeously restricted islamic part of the population here.

Why is this ? Individuals, who have never seen a TV program, video game or a porn magazine in their whole lives, hardly ever been outside their little isolated village, in school they read the Koran and that's pretty much it, sex education is a place in Greece, girls are in separate schools and are there completely covered, except their faces. Under such pietous and morally pure guidance and monitoring, why does people seem to "snap" more frequently ?

I think it may suggest that there are other triggers than exposure to videogames/porn/video-violence and other allegedly bad influences. Maybe even that the opposite could be the case, under-exposure, when you as a 15 year old teenager, with man-building testosterone levels so high that it is squirting out of your ears, can NEVER see such things and get your inate developing desire for some sort of a "release", the inborn desire just snaps, and reason is swept aside, and bad stuff happens.

It raises some new questions for me at least, since I am one to think that the more shit you see, the more you can learn from, and with proper guidance you would not have to learn that "fire=hot so don't touch" by experience, but by advice, and the same goes for "sex=babies unless protected". Whatever can be explained and dealt with straightforwardly, should.

Seing Debbie Does Dallas when I was 12 ("borrowed" my older brothers video), was a purely enjoyable experience, I am not talking about the script or amazing camera directing here , cuz as far as I can remember they were horrible, it just tickled my mind a bit, and I really DO think that should be the case with all humans who are not ashamed of their sexuality. That shame is of course a radioactive byproduct of some bullshit Abrahamic religion that way too many people seem to want to hold on to.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[roundeye]

freedom of speech means something different here than it does there in america. all the canadian racist websites are hosted on american servers because they know that racism is protected there, here it is not. here it is legally and actively fought against. but what the fuck ever, eh?

i just say that cuz the dipshit who started this thread is from my hometown. =D

[[Shizo]]

Every child in the country must watch Ludacris - Southern Hospitality.mpg it's muy educational

[Rat]

Hm...

Censorship...I know it wasn't the original topic, but it is a good one.

I'm fairly liberal (not totally, fairly). But I know there are some things little kids shouldn't see, if they want to lead a mentally healthy life. Things shouldn't be censored as much as they are, but some things should be kept from kids until they're old enough to handle it. A little kid shouldn't see people fucking. Or someone beating their spouse. Or someone running around shooting innocent bystanders, though as they get older, more mature (er...maybe), and begin to be able to comprehend what's happening, these things should be shown to them gradually. Sex, violence, they're a part of life (ie. media) now. You can't shield a person from it, so don't. Just don't hit them with a full-on barrage of these things. And don't show them this sort of thing when they're too young. That can lead to emotional scarring that may never heal.

germumble.

[HawkOne]

Continuing on the derailed censorship topic, I still have no idea why people in this day and and age put sex and violence in the same group, as if they had even the remotest similarity in the effect on a kid.

quote:

---

...their minds are not yet able to understand it. I think the same goes for violence and sex.

If a child is exposed to violence at a young age, there is the possibility of damaging the child's mind. Yes there is the case that the child will remain the same, but is the chance of corrupting the child's mind worth it?

---

If there is a chance the plane will crash, should people stop flying ? If there is a chance people will die in a revolution, should people in Afghanistan just sit on their ass and let the Taliban rape them all ?? Even though Hitler blamed the Jews for everything that was wrong with Germany in the 1930s, should people play along with that ??

There is no way we can make sure of everything, shit happens, many things are just impulsive and random events, shortcircuits, it happens in the best systems, (even MacOS X) and people with agendas of their own (i.e. Ku Klux Klan, The Christian Church, Hisbollah, IRA, and other fundamentalists and fantics of all sorts) are quick to link one event to another, although it is widely known that their "facts" are just concoctions tailored to their own needs to manipulate the fragile minds of their followers.

Seing the neighbour banging his girlfriend in the garage, or finding your way past the parental lock-code into the playboy channel, is NOT going to have anywhere near the same effect as if your dad beats the crap out of your mom ... or see your buddies brains blown all over the sidewalk in a "drive-by".

If a kid is very small he/she won't even give a shit what is going on in the garage, they're probably just polishing the car, or whatever. But if that same kid is older and has a hypothalamus with an increased release of gonadotropin releasing hormone thus stimulating the production of the sex hormones estrogens and progestins and testosterone, sometimes VERY young, like Melissa Stern, chances are he/she'll be intrigued, excited, and instinctively sneak nearer, witness the "event" and have a ball telling his/her friends in school the next day ... and more importantly, use this experience to form their own sexuality, I mean ... come on ... I thought everyone had experiences like this ... I'm sure you would understand that I am NOT saying that the Disney channel should start showing porno movies.

Even though we don't officially get the keys to the sex-machine until we are 18, that doesn't mean the machine hasn't already been running for nearly 10 years.

Don't confuse sex (aka fucking, aka making love) with trauma and violence, if you are thinking about rape, which fits perfectly in that group, so does those famous British Vicars and Pastors who sodomise their choireboys, then why not call it by its real name.

Sex and sexuality is fun, is good, and has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with TRAUMA and VIOLENCE, and although the administration in the USA nowadays wants you to think so, is nothing to be ashamed of. Girls being charged with misdemeanor for taking the top of at the beach, what kind of Taliban crap is that ??

Yeah...


[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[synj]

ehehe artist moral values FPPFaafff

getting back to the first post about moral responsibility, its not really the entertainers responsibility if you ask me.

I can say yes kill all white and black people and impregnate small children against their will please! and make a bunch of murals, songs, animations, paintings, music videos, and documentaries on it. But not that many people would see it. It needs exposure first, right?

so yeah if I did that, granted I'm probably majorly messed up --- but how much more messed up are the people who are spending the billions on shoving it into the TV channels and sides of buses and gas pumps and ATM monitors? ya know?

anyway yeah just blabbing about it cuz I'm bored

[Bare Bonez]

It's Synj!!! I haven't seen you around these parts for awhile.

Back to the discussion. I think I've found some enlightenment through Synj. The basic resolution, I think, is that an Artist is morally responsible to his or her own comfort levels. Actually scratch the word artist and leave it as an individual's. He or she can do whatever he or she wants granted that he or she is comfortable with it.

Other factors, such as laws and social moral codes affect this level of comfort to some degree and I guess that's how censorship gets started. The difficult question that now arises is "does morality even exist in the universal sense." Will humanity ever agree on anything? I think the answer is probably no.

Anyway, I hope not too many people are pissed off - philosophy tends to do that with people, but I just wanted to see what levels of comfort people were up to here and somehow it got onto the topic of censorship and sex and violence.

HawkOne Thank you for your perspective on things. I've gained new insight. I also appreciate your clarity and structured approach.

Anyway dudes. That was fun, gonna start another thread.