[Basement bound]

All right I was/am having an arguement with a couple of guys a work about clones. They say that they are artifical, and because of that they don't have the same value as regular humans. They could do whatever they wanted with them. Enslave them, kill them... etc.

Give your best arguements. Are clones natural, unnatural, artifical? Does any of those realities nulify thier value?

[Coaster]

Its not okay to enslave and kill existing human beings?

[Rat]

Would you enslave and kill your twin brother/sister?

[Molako_Plus]

this is stupid.
first of all why wouldnt clones have the same values as us?
are they not human, or wont they be brought up as humans with human values.

and why in the world would they wanna make us slaves?
and what the hell am i saying "us" and "them"...its all the same


i make no sense..lol goodbye!

[Nilwort]

I don't think clones are "artificial" in the sense that they aren't human...from my understanding, clones are raised from a fetus and mature just like other human beings, except they are just a copy of another person...

I think it all depends on how the clones are raised, if they are given no education or any type of way of expressing themselves and they were basically vegetables it'd be ok to kill them...

wait a minute...chimpanzees are sort of like that and I don't agree with them getting experimented on, at least in serile, tramuatizing surroundings...

It's a hard question...humanity could learn a lot from studying and experimenting on people clones or chimpanzees...but what would it be like being that guinea pig? It would suck quite a bit...

quote

Quote:

They could do whatever they wanted with them. Enslave them, kill them... etc.

I guess what it boils down to is compassion for other living things, who really deserves to live? The person who is cloned and has no control over how they came to be on this planet, or the person who was "naturally" born and considers themselves of greater value than cloned people and have no problem killing them or enslaving them? Who has the right to judge who? Once those clones are alive and their brain is functioning they can experience pain and suffering...why would anyone want to inflict this on any living thing? The only way to justify slavery or killing is maybe experimentation to better the lives of other human beings as sort of a sacrifice...

Basically, I think you're coworkers are fucked up people for trying to justify killing, enslaving, or "doing whatever they want" with any living thing that can percieve pain and suffering...

[ August 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nilwort ]

[edraket]

As far as I know the only difference in how they come into existance is in the conception. After that they are still carried to term and raised by someone.
In my view that makes them just as human as me.

But maybe we should wait untill there is an actual clone before we judge how human they are.

[roundeye]

if i made a clone of myself and forced him to give me head all day under my desk, would that be gay?

[Dr. Bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by roundeye:
if i made a clone of myself and forced him to give me head all day under my desk, would that be gay?

---

thats still masturbation. but its kinda gay.

[Awetopsy]

people believed that black people were lesser beings, that didnt make it ok to enslave them.

If our clones are sentient beings.. what right do non-clones have to force clones into anything. would they not deserve the same rights as any other sentient beings?

[Coaster]

I think its a good idea to kill and enslave your friends who think its okay to kill and enslave clones.

[Basement bound]

hahaha, roundeye & DrBang. That is histarical.

This argument comes down to definitions, here are a few.
selected from the Mirram-Webster dictionary

b]Natural[/b]
1 : based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice>
2 a : being in accordance with or determined by nature b : having or
constituting a classification based on features existing in nature
4 : having an essential relation with someone or something : following from
the nature of the one in question <his guilt is a natural deduction from the
evidence>
5 : implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn <a
natural talent for art>
7 : having a specified character by nature
8 a : occurring in conformity with the ordinary course of nature : not
marvelous or supernatural <natural causes> b : formulated by human
reason alone rather than revelation
9 : possessing or exhibiting the higher qualities (as kindliness and affection) of
human nature
10 a : growing without human care; also : not cultivated b : existing in or produced by nature : not artificial
11 b : living in or as if in a state of nature
untouched by the influences of civilization and society
13 a : closely resembling an original : true to nature b : marked by easy
simplicity and freedom from artificiality, affectation, or constraint c : having a
form or appearance found in nature

Unnatural
1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of
events
2 a : not being in accordance with normal human feelings or behavior :
PERVERSE b : lacking ease and naturalness : CONTRIVED <her manner was
forced and unnatural> c : inconsistent with what is reasonable or expected
<an unnatural alliance>

[b]Artifical[\b]
1 : humanly contrived often on a natural model : MAN-MADE <an artificial
limb> <artificial diamonds>
2 a : having existence in legal, economic, or political theory b : caused or
produced by a human and especially social or political agency <an artificial
price advantage> <artificial barriers of discrimination -- R. C. Weaver>
4 a : lacking in natural or spontaneous quality <an artificial smile> <an
artificial excitement> b : IMITATION, SHAM <artificial flavor>
5 : based on differential morphological characters not necessarily indicative
of natural relationships <an artificial key for plant identification>

[Basement bound]

Now here goes some arguments
There is a cell in human body that resembles a embryonic cell and placed in the human uterus will grow complete to birth. That sounds natural, the growth is at least. however the conception is not, at this point we are taking only one persons genetic material(or are we: originally from mom and dad) There is no male and female getting it on like in 'nature'. The other point about conception is the spontaneity. When the cells of a male and female get together there is a randomness weather it is going to be a male or female(we all at some point in the first trimester are female). With a implanted cell from a human there is no randomness, it is deliberate. That then brings up the issue of artificial insemination. Are those children artificial because of their process of conception. In their case they grow naturally, yet their conception has had all randomness taken out of the process. There is still a man and woman, but the actual conception is done by human hands (makes you think huh)

Another way about it is the experiences. Since we know that a clone can grow naturally till birth. And from there their experiences are then learned naturally like a naturally concepted child. So what if the clone was incubated till it was the same age as the original person. Because it skipped those experiences, it would have to learn them at a older stage. Having moved through some developmental stages would learn faster, but in many ways would still be juvenile. Could this have some influence on our perception of what the clone is.

What happens if cloning develops where we just use dna? And we 'construct' a human. We are build a human then. Does it matter that we are using Natural building blocks, rather than metal, wood, etc....
We talk about sentient beings on TV and literature. Where they think for themselves. Well in a elementary level allot of computers do. They can not provide for themselves(electricity)... for know, at least. How is that different then from a Human that is constructed? Are we now talking about the difference about souls?

[Frost]

I'm a cloned piece of turd. Does that make me worth less than turd? I didn't hope so.

[Spooky]

Keep in mind the people he works with are mostly blue-collar city workers. I know. That doesn't make them any less human (even if they are clones!) but certainly not the most qualified people to make judgments on clone ethics. Their thoughts seem pretty much ignorant and fearful of the unknown. People like that scare me.

[gigatron]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Basement bound:
When the cells of a male and female get together there is a randomness weather it is going to be a male or female(we all at some point in the first trimester are female). With a implanted cell from a human there is no randomness, it is deliberate. That then brings up the issue of artificial insemination. Are those children artificial because of their process of conception. In their case they grow naturally, yet their conception has had all randomness taken out of the process. There is still a man and woman, but the actual conception is done by human hands (makes you think huh)

---

Thats the issue... don't play God... and the concept of creating specific types of humans = questions... You could practically make walking tools... im strongly against the idea of cloning... But I everyone has a right to choices. Heh its somewhat funny we always have interesting topics spoken of on sijun

[Coaster]

oh I'm sorry, we can't further research in curing cancer with these stem cells, its against what I think.

Fine, you don't have to, you can live with your morals, but I think this is important.

no.

BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
*thud*

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Coaster ]

[Coaster]

Guy:
It don't work like that

[Guy]

hmm you sure? i thought i read about things like that happening or possibly happening. oh wells.

EDIT: this is kind of what i was talking about http://www.ifa-usapray.org/Biotech/Biotech1_5_02.html

[ August 10, 2002: Message edited by: Guy ]

[Coaster]

could be, but I'm pretty sure DNA doesn't age like that. DNA stays the way it is, right?

[Minefield]

i think there are no valid reasons to treat clones in any other way humans treat humans. :/
all this crap is about the same things people kill each other for, what is true humanity and what is the right way to exist. blah blah, give it a rest and go have a beer with your clone buddy.

[Guy]

i don't see what the big deal is with clones. it's nothing like how you see it in the movies. a clone won't have your memories. hell they might not look exactly like you. they could grow up to be fat, or thin or whatever. they won't act like you. they could end up being smarter then you or dumber, it all depends on how they are rased.

their are other posible flaws though. what if you were to take the DNA of a 50 year old male who will be bald by the time he's 60? will that clone go bald by the time they are 10 cause the clone has 60 year old DNA in them? that could cause a lot of problems, but thats still no reason to think that clones should have no rights. we are all man made (or man and woman made to be correct) does that make us artifical? no.

Basement bound: your co-workers need to learn some ethics me thinks.

[Guy]

i really don't know hehe. i guess that gives me something to research tomorrow. unless someone here already knows.

[Coaster]

but then when you had children yourself, since your passing on your DNA you'd think the same thing would happen to them..

[Rat]

Aah! I should know this!

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter how old the DNA is. But in order to have a healthy clone, the DNA shouldn't have any "spelling mistakes"*.


*DNA is made up of "letters". A and three others that stand for chemicals or something...can't remember the rest of the letters or what they stand for.

[v1510nAry]

What makes a human..

They Sh!t.
They speak sh!t, occasionaly.
They don't enjoy eating sh!t.
They don't enjoy stepping in sh!t!
They don't enjoy having a rather large hard sh!t!

I think i made my valid point.

[edraket]

Coaster
oh I'm sorry, we can't further research in curing cancer with these stem cells, its against what I think.

Can you explain to me how cloning people (people as in walking and breathing "human" beings) is required to cure cancer?

To me it sounds kind of like the "solving world hunger" argument that seed companies use to justify their practices. But I might be wrong. So can anyone try to elaborate on this?

[Coaster]

Actually I was refering to stem cell reasearch which seems pretty close to this arguement moral-wise.

The idea was that you could take the good DNA from stem cells to replace radical DNAs, or use it with regenerate otherwise unregeneratable tissue.

[v1510nAry]

Yes I actually remember reading or hearing about that somewhere, that is a true advatange towards cloning.

[ August 12, 2002: Message edited by: v1510nAry ]

[Svanur]

A man/woman who looks at a another being as a lesser being is a man/woman with serious problems.

[Coaster]

Basement, yeah thats the main issue. And yes Rat is a spelling bitch.

(I only say that because I am unable to spell, and therefor anyone who can is a bitch)