[Tomasis]

interesting discussion ongoing raytoh howie lemur,

really, values and shapes are minor things.that is just some basic techniques. What it is most interesting is ability to use or create LIGHT. Impressionists did this all time. Sargent happen to be there after just this period. Though he studied Velazquez who is quite modern even today after 400 years. Everything Mullins said, exists in Sargent doc. When I read this, guess how surprised I was, everything was there

If one handles shapes, colors, values well, but the image can turn out as bad, right? One famous photographer Winograd said that we can learn techniques under whole life, but the ability to mantain a vision is unique one that an artist should take care of, it is not everybody can obtain it under "mechanical exercise". Best example is Quntus Dias who creates images that get my heart to beat!

Dont take me wrong, techniques are cool to learn, im jealous of many artists here that can do many different things. I wanted to say to simplify things. Sometimes things look too complicated when it is not, that is all.

you can read me, I refuse to think too much


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[Tomasis]

an old piece that is only cheesy


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[juharasanen]

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JP R�s�nen
http://www.jprasanen.com

[eightball]

AjTron: whoah! nice drama there.

raytoh: been reading mullin's old posts and painting from memory sounds like a good idea. would be a welcome break from drawing from imagination all the time too.

quintus: i've been really digging the monochromatic/red accent paintings you've been doing. i remember a while back you did one of a marine emerging from the fog. the red amidst the monochrome made it memorable. i like it a lot




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[Quintus Dias]

Thx guys very kind.

Tomasis, oh my oh my now you're making me blush.

Ajtron. that is killer awesome. Mixing craquelered surface with clean surface and keeping the balance is very difficult, works very well in yours.

bierberg, negative shadows rules, good depth.

eightball, yea making one vibrant color works very well and you get the play of complimentary colors for free. thank you


Have pulled a couple of graveyard shifts lately so only work and no play, which makes Jack a dull boy. lol
scribble:

[ili]

Nice, Juharasanen!

Had another continuation of the same long pose figure drawing session to experiment with my watercolors, did turnarounds of the pose on the bus ride to the studio from memory and picked one of those to start the painting with.



On break 5 min painting:

[Coyote]

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[farvus]

juharasanen - cool idea.


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[Q.design]

I dont know whether I can get some feedback or help in here or not, but I do know that something wrong with my painting.

So thank you.

Flickr 上 Qdesign0403 的 Colour_V16


Flickr 上 Qdesign0403 的 Pe

[samhell]

@Q.design, my eye seems to see only large & very small details that give the sense of scale between the foreground and the background.

Something in between might help to clarify the scale of elements you want to show?

@Coyote, stunning!

[Q.design]

[Quintus Dias]

Adding to the discussion a little. I usually bring the values together when it comes to tone down details in the background.
It seems to me that it also really helps when you wanna move focus to a certain area.
This is probably gonna sound strange but to me the rules almost say the same thing, change focus and put interest in an area.
Brightness - contrast, small - big, vibrant - colorless, out of depth - focused.

Sometimes in the experimenting that I do a very small stroke on the helmet can make a catastrophic difference....... lol

I am still working on my site logo and I keep bumping into this that I am typing about above here.
Ah anyway what the hell do I know. Hmm a lot of I in my typing. damn.
work in progress sketch:

[RayToh]

Lemur> Yeah. It's very enlightening to revisit his old posts and i understand what you are suggesting. T^T Need to find time and experiment more.
Tomasis> Haa. It's good to simplify theoies. That part i agree. Actually for me, I see revisiting basic as a way to find new ways or break new grounds? I'm really kind of stuck at the moment and reading Mullin's notes kind of give me a sense that it's always the basic that needs strenghtening. ( Which is true in my case. Figure, Lighting, values, Drawing, perspective, Sigh.. ) Sometime, some stuff people do will look deceivingly simple but the effort is unseen. Bruce Lee have a saying for learning to fight? I think. He say first. A punch is a punch. In this beginning stage. The fighter fight by instinct. Next if the fighter starts to train. A punch is not a punch. Beacuse the fighter when fighting will not be thinking about his punch but calculating and predicting the enemies action. After that, a punch will be a punch. So at the final stage. After you have learn all the calculation of reaction and prediction, you will go back to your instinctive self but the thing is. Your instinct is on another level. For mullin's case. I think he presented this concept as driving a car. You need to train until the level when everything become instinctive. Something i hope to push towards. I hope. T^T And in Quintus Dias case. Yeah. Best example. Look intinctive but there's thoughts and thnking behind it as he explain above.
eightball> Yeah. But seriously it's kind of messing up my brain at the moment. Not sure if it's a good thing.
Coyote> Nice.
Quintus Dias> Always look forward to your posting.

One for today. Trying to understand value more, but not happy with the result. Feel like erasing the face of the guy!!!! Ugly!!! Train train train. T^T

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[AjTron]

sweet stuff everybody!

[Tomasis]

raytoh, exactly it is to follow instinct, guts feeling. All I say here is in my opinion. When one paints, one doesnt think about small details, ways, techniques but in more grandiose scheme as light, composition, content, purpose of message, feeling. Sure those small technical details as value, shape , drawing, colors are involved but often it is done in subconscious way like a nerve is attached in body. I dont remember how many times I analyzed such basic techniques in every painting but when I do that under painting session, I felt lost then and I dont remember what I tried to do as I thought first from beginning. Lately I use evaluations only when the session is finished so Im more relaxed and use more left part of brain to analyze and find stupid errors from technical perspective. Maybe it is that so I thought much about progress earlier and moved forward after have understood all this shit stuffs with more peace in head (more headroom to allow undiscovered things to fall in).

It is good point about bruce lee, but if we go back to his teacher Yip Man, he would ask "Why involve in a fight when it can be avoided?" Or "Why calculate enemy's moves when you attack first". Re car driving, in another forum (oil painting) one mentioned painting as being chess game, I felt I dont agree there so I wrote like this "Painting is not a chess game, otherwise it will appear an architectural masterpiece instead and without feelings. When you paint, you just see. Compare to Formula1 driving. To drive fastest around requires maximum concentration, brake and accelerate at right place, being in the flow, make no mistakes and know exactly what comes up at next. When you make a mistake, you're slower and lag behind. Concentration doesnt come up nowhere but with long time practice and experience. Yeah, it is about being spontaneous, concentrated and keep playing that simple game!"

Well, our brains work extremely fast, it is easy put a stroke when I dont intend or being simply thoughtless zombie like. Sometimes the hand does it itself without control. I think and go back to Zen Buddhism. One makes a concentrated effort, draws and releases arrow from the bow. One millionth time. Every time it is each own, unique and has its purpose.

quintus, do you write much? Better you shot me down, you can loan my shotgun


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[Tomasis]

ajtron, rayton, quintus, and other, beautiful works!

ajtron, what kind of program? awesome brushes and LIIIIGHT!!
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[farvus]

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[Lemur]

Coyote! Ajtron!-wow!

adding to the ongoing dialouge (i love this, feels like the old days, guess somebody just had to mention Craig lol)- another dimension to this isn't just experience with painting in general, but experience with the subject you are painting too! Some artists are masters of painting certain subjects, but then can't paint worth crap outside of their realm. I guess that is all of us really

Sometimes I'll really fall into 'presence' full concentration where the thoughts seem to be slotting into just the right places. Then I'll be painting afterwards and be confused, irritable, the things going downhill fast- usually its cause I'm trying to paint something I have never painted before without giving thought or consideration before starting! I also think its very important to warm up your brain before painting. I Arrange things around the house, look at funny pictures, look at master artworks-doing these things for about an hour before starting painting yields best results I'm finding. Its like being a turbocharged car, you gotta spool up

Tomasis- as far as what you said about worrying about light instead of shapes or values. In a scene with light thats the driving factor, figuring out how the light determines the shapes and the values, but before that to design the light itself! I'm finding a vocabulary of light design is important and have been studying cinema lighting for this purpose. Alot of it is very simple, but if you don't have a vocabulary defining the characteristics of certain lighting scenarios then it becomes a billion times harder to design light in a scene!

This leads into what I think are the two functions of design 1.emotion 2.credibility... Often I'd find my pictures were suffering cause I was trying so hard to make it look 'right' and not focusing my design on getting an emotional response. Its a balance for sure, and often times the credibility and emotion work hand in hand. There are alot of parallels with this in other artistic fields, think about writing for example! Lots of writers do tons of research before writing some novel, because the emotion of the story will only reach the reader if the reader is immersed in the world, which takes credibility.

[eightball]

keep up the good art and good discussion guys.


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[Howie]

Totally agree with what you said Lemur, that successful images are a balance between credibility and emotion. But depending on who the audience is I think the balance shifts.

For the person not familiar with art/design credibility weighs more, they are interested in what the subject matter is more than how the image is put together. This viewer can still value a well designed image (not necessarily consciously) but the subject matter I think will always be more noticeable and important.

The trained artist/designer on the other hand looks at things much more abstractly and emotionally and realizes that an image doesn't work because of it's subject matter it works because of the way it is designed. To the artist the subject matter is secondary to the way the image is presented and the emotion that it gives off.

I think to work professionally as a concept artist or illustrator one needs to understand and be conscious of both sides. The artist needs to give importance to the subject matter through design and emotion but he also has to cater to an audience that needs the subject matter to relate to whats going on.

[obier]

been a while .. that's so awesome coyote!


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[Quintus Dias]

Raytoh & Tomasis, thank guys.

Tomasis, you mean like novels and such?

[RayToh]

Tomasis> Hope you don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything. What i'm saying is, everyone have their own way and thinking to approach a situation. That's what make arts / concept arts / illustrations interesting. Some took a more technical way. Some will take a more emotional way. I understand what you are suggesting about don't think about technique, just approach the problem as a light problem. I think there a small mis-communication here because some idea is just hard to bring it across by just typing. Actually the thing abt value and shape are just term we use to break down, say a scene. As what lemur have explain above. But then it's really an option if you want to do it this way or not. I have a few painter friends that does what you do. They don't have terms to break down the scene but they approach the whole thing with gut intinct and the intention of capturing the light. Emotion, compostion and good choices. Nothing wrong with that because their result is just as amazing. All this typing is making my brain work extra hours. Quite tiring after a day or work. Hee. But like i say, if you have a strong believe with some theoy or direction, Just go ahead with it. Nothing wrong with that. I'm a person that is pretty open? I guess. For me is. I will try anything to improve. I'm mostly self taught but then it's really hard to define self taught. I should say i learn my stuff from anywhere i can find information on. So alot of the time i just try and see what works or don't works for me. By the way. Nice portriat.
AjTron and obier> Niiccee!
Lemur> Love both the pieces.
eightball> Ooo. All this discussion is making my brain processor overclock. Cannot cannot. Don't encourage. Hee.
Howie> Agree with what you and lemur is saying. Striking the balances. I think my brain is shutting off pretty soon. Too much information to process. Haaa. Tiredd... tiredd...

One for today. Oil painting still life practise. Revisting Craig Mullin's cube exercise.

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[Photeck]

Shooop da whhooopppp

[Tomasis]

lemur, yeah! The experience with any subject is very interesting to share of here. Diversity and variaton of matter is astounding when we talk about concept art. Imagine what kind of stuffs exist in our subconsciousness that formed by our many years worth experience, memory. I sometimes get surprised to get things "delivered" by brain afterward after have seen something "loose" one day earlier without doing or saying anything to me myself. Better I skip about that part, haha. Too much abstract.

For starting to paint, it almost needs a ceremony . Like you, I cannot concentrate immediately, I had to look for inspiration or just medidate for a half hour. Playing car simulation helps me much and my brain gets warmed up quickly, there in game Im not allowed make stupid mistakes, it makes me really feel in presence and feel a rush of adrenaline in the head.

Thats is very good part about functions of design you took up.(I love how you think and I feel I can relate much in your process) It is how my process looks like. If I made good shapes and values then I notice it is not that light I got, then I destroy, take apart those shape&values and start again. If I ignore design and go abstract while designing light then I have to know how shapes will look and start think about it then I forget light. If composition is not good then again start from zero. It is much trial and go forth and back process especially when I create something new from nothing. It is such fun process. It is almost that my brain acts as emulated 3d program and I move light thing around subject and my head calculates itself how shapes should look to fit in the desired composition which in the order makes good emotional and credibility response for me and hopefully viewer. Craig Mullins has really got good balance there between those things. It is easy to be unaware and look at his image and think "oh it is right, it is about realistic, good shape" but underestimate how much energy it takes to get good emotional response in the picture while maintaining "right things" at "cold" (technical) way.

wonderful car and light, aaahhhh!


raytoh hehe sorry about the head, dont take me wrong too. I think that you misunderstood my whole post. I think it is fun to discuss and saying each own view. Im aware that our words can make things confusing even if we know it is the same things we talk about. My writing style and English may be confusing since Im so straightforward. It is never to meant to be other else than simple discussing and expressing an opinion from my part.

I never say "that is so". Im trying to understand what it can go wrong, what kind of things can get an artist to be frustrated during the process. I never deny importance of value and shape and "other small things" because all elements are dependent on each other. One cannot take out one otherwise the pyramid falls down. I just speculated about a cause which makes an artist contemplating, to feel stuck, it may be not of technical nature, it may be something other else.

Sure we all have different priorities about going or being inspired firstly by light either composition or detail work. Also we have own goals what final works of our will look like. Im such person that have rarely long patience for details or subtle values so no wonder that my approach of work looks at such way. Like finish too early. Even if I like work with emotional things, I still restrain me myself often with abstract, because I have some things to learn me as to relax, just being creative outside "credibility" realm or any damn rule, restriction that is imposed from me, own convictions.

nice oil paintings lately, oil helps me much to improve my painting. Keep up it.


howle, i agree 100%. Some things are hidden and start to be revealed the time passes more. You are prime example who understands both sides. For example when I look at your nice abstract things, I often say to myself that I totally miss that side and restrain me myself too much. nice works btw!


quintus, im kidding.. I feel I spam too much here with my nonsense lol.


no more long texts from me for a while! Hurrah! It is time to party!

oil painting


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[Ditlev]

Nice stuff on these pages guys.

AjTron: Now thats sweet!

STPo: I love the simplicity and yet not in your work.

Sparth: as always, you keep blowing me away. It's realy inspiring.

Viag: Wooow! that's great.

Well I'm on vacation so I finally got some time to paint a little. at least until the little one starts screaming for dad again. he, he.




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[Tomasis]

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[Lemur]

thanks guys! great discussion here.

Howie- there definitely is a balance for all sorts of reasons and styles. I would say the people that credibility (depends on how you define it really) weighs most on in a negative sortof way are beginner/early intermediate naturalist artists. Alot of people who know nothing about art still enjoy alot of stuff like cartoons-which are almost purely symbolic, but I remember when I was in highschool and just learning painting I was so focused on 'realism' that I'd scoff at lots of stuff I enjoy greatly today...assumedly I had an objective grasp on judging art by how 'real' it looked . I didn't even see the awesome stylization in so many 'realistic' works,it went right over my head!
It sounds like you are defining it a little differently though- like seeing stuff in a picture as 'things'. Thats a big part of a common viewer's focus! Painters who paint historical stuff like battles/ old airplanes get hell from the old timers who can spot even the tiniest proportional inaccuracies of the airplanes/guns/what have you

Tomasis-thats interesting about the car simulation, my xbox broke but awhile back I would play alot and noticed the same thing! Very similar sortof ''on the fly'' concentration as with painting smoothly. As far as lighting goes with these ''scene'' paintings I think lighting is really the primary thing to figure out. Once you get an idea of how the light works Its easy to change the drawing and keep that feel, but damn near impossible to keep the drawing and change the light mood! Sortof like cooking a dish and trying to change the flavor once its on the plate...love the oil btw!

aah, tired.. Trying to get better focus with my lighting-this one is obvious-

[Howie]

Lemur - I think credibility weighs so greatly on the beginner artist because the people judging their work usually aren't artists themselves. When high school students show their work to their friends or parents they are judged on accuracy because their friends and family don't understand any other aspect. As a result, the beginner artist relates success with accuracy.

I'm not sure it's such a negative thing though, because being able to represent subjects accurately is a valuable skill, the artist hopefully breaks free of the expectations of his friends and family and realizes there isn't one specific or "right" way to represent something. Once this is realized the artist is more free to experiment and put more of himself into his work, and since he has so much experience painting realistically he can balance back and forth how wild he wants to get.

[samhell]

This started out as a speedy.



@Photeck, I love the space image!